Tulsa MLS, shall we talk about it again?

[USRufnex]

Tulsa's 2002/2003 feasability study done by Conventions, Sports & Leisure determined (based on a random phone survey) that the city of Tulsa could expect to average 14,630 people at soccer games.  A Johnson County study done by the same group estimated 12,000 fans per game for Kansas City's games...

Tulsa drew over 14,000 fans for a Saturday afternoon April 2003 exhibition game at Skelly between Dallas and KC...

(Dallas, KC and Chicago stats courtesy of kenn.com)
Dallas All-Time MLS average per game attendance (1996-2005):  11,584
FC Dallas 2006 average per game attendance at Pizza Hut Park in Frisco, TX:  14,982

Kansas City All-Time MLS average per game attendance (1996-2005):  10,992
Kansas City 2006 average per game attendance:  11,083

Chicago Fire 2006 average per game attendance at brand new Toyota Park in Bridgeview, IL:  14,088

Tickets for the exhibition at Skelly were priced at $14 and $12, with TU students and groups of 25 or more getting specially priced $6 tickets... Dallas fans estimated Tulsa's crowd at around 16,000 based on the size of the stadium... most often heard quote from Tulsans, "This is more than TU gets for football."  

Quotes from the Tulsa World:

"Oklahoma has a massive youth soccer market and Tulsa has a tremendous history with the Roughnecks.  Joe-Max Moore has played for the U.S. national team and in our league and Tulsa is a market that really seems to get passionate about local offerings. We had 14,000 fans and 3,500 season ticket commitments at the exhibition game on April 5 and that speaks well."
--Don Garber, commissioner of MLS--4/23/03

"There will be two expansion franchises announced by the end of the year to play in the 2005 season, and Tulsa and Oklahoma City will not both receive one. Garber said it's possible, although unlikely, that both could be shut out."
--Don Garber, 4/23/03

"We have been successful when we're one of the big games in town and Tulsa seems to be a community that would embrace a team and make it special. Oklahoma City is the same way. I believe the timing at some point will be there. The timing might be right early in our expansion process, but one way or another, Oklahoma is a great market place for us."
--Mark Abbott, COO of MLS, 4/23/03

"We'd have a team right now if we had the stadium and an ownership group.  The MLS would love to have a team in Tulsa, but we don't have the proper facility here in town, and an ownership group really hasn't stepped forward."
--Tom McIntosh, TU Men's soccer coach, 3/26/05

"The marketplace is a good one. It's ready, assuming an appropriate facility and owner can be found," Johnson said. "We had a tremendous crowd when we played there a couple of years ago. Tulsa certainly can be a good marketplace for professional soccer, I believe in that."
--Curt Johnson, General Manager-Kansas City Wizards, 3/26/05

"The Tulsa World has learned that a national sports agency that owns a franchise is interested in bringing a team to Tulsa."
--Tulsa World, 11/18/05

From MLSnet.com
"Representatives of the proposed Toronto club are in the Dallas area this weekend for MLS Cup 2005, as are potential investors in five other cities: Philadelphia, Cleveland, Milwaukee, Atlanta and Tulsa, Okla. Garber noted that if a second 2007 expansion city is not decided on, the league could employ an unbalanced schedule with just 13 teams."

"We need local ownership, we need a stadium plan, and we need a committed fan base."

11/20/05 Tulsa World-- "An unnamed group's proposal to include a medium-size soccer stadium in the latest plans for downtown Tulsa's East Village district, though, fits a trend for sports stadiums, especially those used primarily by Major League Soccer teams."

"If Tulsa had a stadium, there is no question we would get a franchise," Eddy said. "But stadiums are not cheap. So you're going to have to have somebody with pretty deep pockets step up, and it doesn't appear that will happen."
--Keith Eddy, Tulsa Soccer Club founder and former New York Cosmos player

What is Tulsa missing?  Not the fanbase... probably not a stadium if push came to shove-- if Tulsa had local ownership, would the lease be worse/better at an East End soccer stadium than what Global will offer the Drillers?... after all, no shovels have hit the ground... yet.

What is Tulsa missing?  A local ownership group like this...

"Our goal is to build the finest stadium in Major League Soccer supported by the finest staff and fill that with the finest fans in Major League Soccer watching the finest players. It's a pretty easy goal and anything less than that is not what we're interested in." -- Robb Heineman, OnGoal LLC (Kansas City Wizards)

--more rebuttals to come.

Thanks.

[deinstein]

Just because you market one game well, doesn't mean we can support it through an entire regular season.

And it's extremely misleading to use one game's attendance and put it up against entire regular season attendance averages to try and sway someone's viewpoint.

[deinstein]

Also, the main point of the article was that Tulsa is missing ownership...anyone want to guess why they are missing ownership? Any wild guesses on this one? I'll take a stab. It's probably because it's not a very wise investment.

[USRufnex]

Here's a thought:

Compare Oklahoma City's previous exhibition games for the NBA and NHL to what the city draws for Hornets games at the Ford Center now...

Another thought:

Back in 1977, Tulsa hosted an exhibition game for the North American Soccer League.  The game drew over 11,000 fans.  In 1978, the Tulsa Roughnecks were born.

There was NO reason to expect NASL soccer would succeed in Tulsa; this was college football country... nobody knew anything about soccer.  St. Louis was the city that had HUGE soccer tradition, not Tulsa.  Yet the St Louis team moved to Anaheim, CA in '78.  

Please name what pro team in Oklahoma had over 12,000 fans who donated $$$ to help the team make its payroll... sure wasn't a baseball team.

From bizjournals -- 10 Most Overextended Markets in Pro Sports...

1.  Tampa/St Pete
2.  Phoenix
3.  Denver
4.  Pittsburgh
5.  Kansas City
6.  St. Louis
7.  Milwaukee
8.  Cincinnatti
9.  Buffalo
10. Minneapolis-St Paul

It is my opinion that MLS made a long-term mistake by having teams in Denver and Kansas City.  But those cities have local people who will step up to the plate to own those teams.  And possible expansion in St Louis and Milwaukee is also a mistake.  Yet St Louis is looking at building a soccer stadium on the Illinois side of the border... Milwaukee is using Global Development Partners to secure land and offer a similar project to the East End there...

Actually, why I am wasting my breath with you?... NOTHING I say will ever convince a professional Tulsa naysayer like you of the unique opportunity Tulsa has had for years to add an MLS team here...

Why don't you and Breadburner start a civic group and call it TWHT, aka "Tulsans Who Hate Tulsa".

...or you could move to a REAL city like you said you would.  

Here's a very telling post from a thread I started on bigsoccer.com.... quite a few of us ex-Tulsans (including me before I moved back here last October) post sentiments bemoaning the negative civic pride that seems to permeate the city....

http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=238645

by Brilliant Orange  

quote:Forget about the MLS in Tulsa.  It is a shame but the citizens there are entirely absorbed in negative thoughts and opinions.  They have a distinct can't do, won't do attitude.  Tulsans and Oklahomans in general seem to enjoy being small-time, anonymous, and insignificant.

Sound like anybody we know...

[perspicuity85]

The bottom line on this issue is the ownership.  If Tulsa gets a commitment from a corporate entity or a group of wealthy citizens to bring a MLS team to town, it will happen.  The stadium will have to come after that commitment is made.  
The next question: if the financial commitment is made, will the city support the new franchise?  I'd like to think so.  Based on the marketing studies done in 2003, it looks like it's possible.  To me, the success of a MLS franchise in Tulsa has as much to do with the league as the city.  The old NASL expanded too rapidly and never received high TV ratings.  The MLS, however, seems to be much more stable.  MLS will need to keep bringing in well-known World Cup players like Beckham to keep up the interest of the common U.S. fan who may not know a great deal about soccer.
These factors must all be considered.  Rufnex and other avid soccer fans in Tulsa need to talk to some big-time Tulsa companies.  Ownership and sponsorship is required for this to ever get off the ground.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by deinstein

Also, the main point of the article was that Tulsa is missing ownership...anyone want to guess why they are missing ownership? Any wild guesses on this one? I'll take a stab. It's probably because it's not a very wise investment.

that is not a very astute observation. there are lots of reasons that money doesn't follow "good" investments. it often has nothing to do with the judgement of the idea, but rather the myopia of a community or the level of its investment savvy. Oil related ventures around here? They'll jump. Something new and different....well, ask any successful business man that developed his idea from ground up if he had trouble attracting investors.

[deinstein]

Are you talking about the oil related ventures like Citgo and Vintage by any chance?

[}:)]

Like I said, let's get real.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by deinstein

Are you talking about the oil related ventures like Citgo and Vintage by any chance?

[}:)]

Like I said, let's get real.

Like I said, ask any successful business man that developed his idea from ground up if he had trouble attracting investors.

Citgo and Vantage? How do you figure?

[Chris]

deinstein,

If you are so certain an MLS team wouldn't work in Tulsa why don't you back it up with something other than your opinion. Give some evidence please.

[deinstein]

Talons, Drillers, and Oilers.

That's why.

[perspicuity85]

quote:Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE

Despite anything that has been said to the contrary, I also hope that Tulsa someday gets an MLS team. I really don't see that happening for several years, since they're still looking at major metro areas and haven't quite trickled down to mid-sized metros the size of Tulsa yet. We'd be the Green Bay Packers of the MLS. Since we weren't one of the founding cities, I think we'll have to wait until all the major metros have teams and the league still wants to expand.

It wouldn't be that much of a stretch, considering the league already has a team in Salt Lake City.  SLC is not that much bigger than Tulsa, and Oklahoma City is actually bigger than Salt Lake.
Source:
http://www.census.gov/population/cen2000/phc-t29/tab01b.pdf

[USRufnex]

quote:Originally posted by deinstein

Talons, Drillers, and Oilers.

That's why.

Funny how a $200,000 feasability study won't faze you... or how an exhibition game that draws 14,000 fans and signs up 3500 season ticket holders doesn't faze you... around 5000 season tix spoken for (w/ CC#s and check info).... or how the success of those events attracted out of state investment for the "East End"...

Yet the reason why high level pro soccer will not succeed in Tulsa is based on attendances for minor league baseball, minor league hockey and minor league arena football...

Get real.

[sportyart]

quote:Originally posted by USRufnex

quote:Originally posted by deinstein

Talons, Drillers, and Oilers.

That's why.

Funny how a $200,000 feasability study won't faze you... or how an exhibition game that draws 14,000 fans and signs up 3500 season ticket holders doesn't faze you... around 5000 season tix spoken for (w/ CC#s and check info).... or how the success of those events attracted out of state investment for the "East End"...

Yet the reason why high level pro soccer will not succeed in Tulsa is based on attendances for minor league baseball, minor league hockey and minor league arena football...

Get real.

I agree. There is no reason why MLS would not work in out city. There has been study after study that has stated that the normal person in our city would attend the games. The spike that has driven people apart is now over. The East End project will hold a minor league baseball stadium and speaking as a recent visitor to Coach's in brick town that over looks their baseball park, I can't wait until it happens in Tulsa. Now as it is for a MLS stadium in our city. Because of the recent economic fluctuations, it would be best for us to put it up as a county or even MSA vote for the construction of a new stadium along with construction of arts/history/education ticket. As with most people in the Tulsa county area, anything that rides on an educational ticket will win. Heck if we build it next to OSU-Tulsa, we might even get some funds from the State who has been hording Tulsa funds for years. But this should not happen unless we have a deal with an owner. "Tulsa votes yes, we move, votes no we don't".  We can use the stadium not only for soccer but also football games, and for those of you who would say "Well Jenks and Union wont ever play their because we have the larger Skelly Stadium" are going to be sorely disappointed to learn that TU plans to take down the steel structure and build a three story press box from the 15 yard line to the 15 yard line dropping its capacity down to 23000. Heck the MLS stadium might even be bigger. Tulsa folks need to unite not divide.

[USRufnex]

Sorry sporty, but I just don't give much chance (if any) that local taxpayers (including me) would approve a sales-tax funded soccer stadium... even if it did work for the arena...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070116/ap_on_sp_so_ne/soc_mls_beckham_tickets

quote:The Galaxy said it had sold 5,000 season tickets since Thursday's announcement while the expansion Toronto FC said it sold 2,600 of its 10,000 season tickets.

Beckham's decision "has generated more interest in Major League Soccer than any other event in league history," MLS commissioner Don Garber said Tuesday. "We didn't sign David to sell tickets and jerseys. He was signed because he's a world-class soccer player."

Yeah, right... pull my finger, Garber...[}:)]

The REAL REASONS for AEG's signing of David Beckham...

For AEG (Anschutz Entertainment Group), they need to recoup some of their previous losses and solidify the league's expansion...

Filling their 27,000 seat stadium in L.A. is the least of their concerns... I thought they were already running in-the-black in L.A.... Beckham puts 'em solidly back in-the-red...

AEG just sold DC United this month for a reported $35 million (compared to summer 2005's $25 million deal with the East End's Global Development Partners that unraveled 1/2006)... stadium deal at Poplar Point/Anacostia has been in flux for years...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/26/AR2007012601361.html

AEG moved the San Jose team to Houston's Robertson Stadium last year but would want a new stadium there, too.  AEG has sold teams to local owners in Denver, NY/NJ and DC leaving it with 3 teams in LA, Houston and Chicago.

The league has plans to expand by three teams for a total of 16 teams by 2010, 18 later...

But the league has had major problems getting new stadiums built for any new teams...

In Cleveland... mixed-use and hyperbole.
http://www.ohio.com/mld/ohio/news/columnists/bob_dyer/16416344.htm

quote:Paul Garofolo, president of the Wolstein Sports & Entertainment Group, proclaims that his Summit County soccer stadium scheme will have a $10 billion impact on the area.

In St Louis... er, uh... Collinsville, IL?!?... slow progress...
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/othersports/story/A059144A79AAE0388625725C0012B132?OpenDocument

quote:"The city and the investment group, the economic development office and our corporate counsel have been crunching numbers,'' he said. "It hasn't looked good to this point, but it's looking better.

In Milwaukee... Peter Wilt and... Global Development Partners...
http://madisonsoccercentral.com/WordPress/?p=211

quote:If Milwaukee Professional Soccer doesn't make an announcement about a stadium site and a lead investor within the next few months, it might mean the group will have to give up its quest to bring a Major League Soccer franchise to the state.

In Philly... not quite dead?
http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/news/education/story/7118923p-6975209c.html

quote:While excitement pervaded much of the soccer world, however, plans for an MLS expansion team and stadium at Rowan remain in limbo...........

Last March, Rowan signed a deal with MLS temporarily granting it exclusive negotiating rights with investors considering building a stadium for an expansion team in the Philadelphia area. At the time, the Milestone Group had a formal option to buy the Kansas City Wizards franchise from Lamar Hunt.

In Seattle... never???
http://www.seattlest.com/archives/2006/11/16/why_major_league_soccer_is_never_coming_to_seattle.php

Dave Checketts is having troubles in Salt Lake City...
http://www.sltrib.com/realsaltlake/ci_5100033

And the Kansas City Wizards situation is a MESS.
http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/politics/elections/15965477.htm

quote:OnGoal LLC, will try to reach an agreement with Overland Park before asking the state to authorize the same kind of tax incentive used to finance Kansas Speedway.

The incentive allows developers to use some of the new sales tax revenue from the project to offset certain expenses.

Initially, the property tax was proposed because the site could not handle enough retail to generate sufficient sales tax to pay for a 24-field complex, Heineman said.

Under the latest financing proposal, Heineman said, fewer fields might be built.

Joyce Millard, who campaigned against the soccer proposal, reacted incredulously to Heineman's comments.

"That's a slap in the face to the democratic process," Millard said. "Doesn't the voters' mandate mean anything?"

Millard promised a vigorous battle to defeat any effort to build a Wizards' stadium near her neighborhood.

Some Johnson County political veterans were astonished that the ballot issue lost by such a wide margin Tuesday, 64 percent to 36 percent.

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/16461671.htm

quote:Instead, Beckham and his friends in the British press will be shocked to learn that when he comes to Kansas City he will be playing in a retrofitted high school football stadium somewhere south of 75th Street.

The location hasn't been announced. But in no case will the Wizards' temporary home have more than 10,000 seats.

Lots of irons in the fire...

[USRufnex]

quote:Originally posted by sportyart

.....TU plans to take down the steel structure and build a three story press box from the 15 yard line to the 15 yard line dropping its capacity down to 23000. Heck the MLS stadium might even be bigger.

Interesting.

The only time TU football at Skelly Stadium draws much over 23,000 is the occasional home game against OU or OSU...

Why in 2003 was Major League Soccer interested in using UCO's to-be-renovated Wantland Stadium in Edmond (if seating was expanded to 20K), yet had virtually no interest in TU's Skelly Stadium?

http://www.bronchosports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=7300&KEY=&ATCLID=225377


1.  Skelly Stadium is too big... reduction of capacity to 23,000 solves this problem.

2.  Skelly has an old press box and no real "club" or corporate suite seating... a huge new three story press box would presumably solve this problem.

3.  The field at Skelly is too narrow... I'd heard rumors a few years back about TU taking out rows of seats on the east and/or west stands?  Returning the field to its pre-1965 dimensions would solve this problem.

4.  Skelly doesn't have a grass field... but if TU plans to restore the stadium to its classic Gothic architecture, wouldn't a grass field like they have at UH's Robertson Stadium be "a natural"?

5.  Skelly is just too old...

Well, yeah.  But teaming up with a University is exactly what Oakland A's owner Lew Wolff plans to do for his potential MLS team alongside San Jose State Univ....
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/colleges/san_jose_state/16559323.htm

quote:Wolff said Tuesday at a downtown business forum that he wants a capacity that's ``closer to 20 than 30'' thousand seats. San Jose State envisions a stadium with 23,500 permanent, chair-back seats and room for 6,500 bleacher seats that would be brought in for football games, according to individuals familiar with the plan.

......Included in the 23,500-seat configuration would be about 30 luxury suites and 2,000 club-level seats, according to sources....

Oh, and a team in Salt Lake City may be put up for sale...
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=843132

quote:KSL Newsradio's Doug Wright spoke with Checketts Monday morning. Checketts told him the team will likely stay in Utah for one more year, then it will probably be sold.

On Friday, the Salt Lake County Debt Review Committee voted against spending $30 million in hotel taxes on the $110 million project.