Gay practice on television -> gay pride

[rwarn17588]

Yep.

The same sort of stupid outrage we heard last season with the "war against Christmas" thread.

[okiebybirth]

quote:Originally posted by iplaw

quote:Dr. King wasn't well liked, in fact he was hated by most whites while he was alive.  It was only after his death have we come to realize how much he helped us advance as a nation.

I hardly think this was the case, but maybe you could point me in the direction of the source you found this tid bit of "fact" in.

quote:
Okay Iplaw, like I said, there is much discussion about the "freaks", and people do want them out of the parade.  I just don't feel like being the one to reject them and tell them they aren't wanted; they get that enough from society.  Maybe you and your brother-in-law would want to have that discussion with them?
And quit playing that "I have a relative/friend who is gay" card. []

Oh...it's playing a card when I do it, but not when MichaelC does it...how convienient. []  I almost wrote you a nasty reply until I saw the tongue...

Iplaw, if King was liked by the white masses, then his message would have been moot; there would have been no need for his message and dream.  I think we all know that during King's time, many whites wanted to be separated by blacks.  And didn't the FBI have a interest in King?  I'm sure it wasn't because of the message he was spreading, hmmmm?

[iplaw]

quote:
Iplaw, if King was liked by the white masses, then his message would have been moot; there would have been no need for his message and dream. I think we all know that during King's time, many whites wanted to be separated by blacks. And didn't the FBI have a interest in King? I'm sure it wasn't because of the message he was spreading, hmmmm?

I think it depends on what area of the country you were looking at.  In the South I would tend to agree with you, but other places, not so much.  

Anyways, I think I made a compelling argument as to why the African American analogy doesn't hold water in the first place.  There are many practices/beliefs that we could categorize as a "minority" viewpoint, but that doesn't afford them all a direct connection to the spirit of what Dr. King was trying to bring about.

[iplaw]

quote:Originally posted by rwarn17588

Yep.

The same sort of stupid outrage we heard last season with the "war against Christmas" thread.

It's funny how there are at least a half a dozen Federal cases being tried right now concerning the display of the nativity and so forth, but it's not a "Christmas" issue.  I agree the phrase "War on Christmas" is rediculous, but what would you call those lawsuits?

[cannon_fodder]

I stated clearly that my analogy wanst perfect per King v. Nation of Islam.  However, my POINT was that the more radical of groups often dont get anything constructive done.

But to kiss up to ye' ole' admin:

I am not terribly offended by kissing of a gay couple on TV.   Nor am I offended by a gay pride parade.  I do, however, question the advances the more radical of gay rights advocates hope to gain by extremely flamboyant displays such as those seen at San Francisco's big gay-la.  

But... if a man wants to dance down the street in his underwear, far be it for me to stop him.  In fact, if I saw more random people dancing happily in underwear - I'd probably chuckle a lot more during the day.

[TheArtist]

For the thing on television...Yea, turn the channel if you don't like it.  I can understand someones frustration if they are watching a show that they think will not have something that they don't like or approve of on it, and then it suddenly does though.  I don't like watching vivid violence and gore type stuff.  So if I were watching a show that I didnt expect something like that to be on and suddenly it did, well I might be offended, mostly because they would be changing the nature of the show, that unspoken contract that the show was supposed to be what I had expected it to be lol. So the question may be,.. Is this show you are watching not being the type of show its supposed to be?  Or, Over all does the rest of the show make up for those "startling moments" lol.   If not, change the channel.  Its now, unfortunately, not the kind of show you want to watch.

As for the parade...

 I don't think there is any one reason people join the parade or go to it.  Community acceptance, support within the community, rebellious expression, fun, shock value.  Completely different, contradictory, and befuddling, but there ya have it.

I think one of the reasons some things are accepted that IMO should not be, is that since many gays are rejected because they are different, seen as sexually immoral, gross, etc. It then becomes hard for many to then reject others, even if they may see annother group that way. In essence they buy into the very prejudice that is placed upon them.

Blacks were seen as ignorant and stupid.  Fought hard to have the right to go to integrated and quality schools.  Then there was a generation of blacks that went to school "carrying boom boxes instead of books". If you were seen as being smart and bookish, you were considered "acting white" and denying your own culture.

There is nothing intrinsic about being black that says you cant be bookish and smart. There is nothing intrinsic about being gay that says you cant be sexually and socially "normal".  But each of these groups is affected by a similar beast which creates these, and many other, contradictions.  The similarity is Prejudice.

Many gays, especially the young, find that they are rejected by their families, churches, all those supposed bastions of goodness, and guess where they then find themselves?  What kind of groups and people are then likely to accept them?  Not always the best kind. And when they hear that they are immoral but cant change it, see that it really isnt immoral or a choice but the way they are, imagine how that can make other things that those good people say, sound?  The reason,logic, and social norms that those "good people" say are right, come shattering down.  What legitimacy do they then have? You were wrong about this, why should I believe you about that? Some then do all kinds of things becase the moral compass has been effectively rendered a lie.  Some do things just to be rebellious. After being forced to do one thing bad, bad because the "good people" say it is, to heck with it I will do anything I want. I can't be good.  Why shouldnt I do that? They say being gay is wrong too.  Who are they to know and tell me whats right and wrong?  Most gays are not like that, but enough of them do have those thoughts, especially early on, that it leads to a lot of people making some bad choices and going down some unfortunate paths.

Do good people push gays away, out of their churches, families, friendships, thinking that "The pain of being thrown out and being rjected " will be enough to make them reconsider being gay and change?   Do they really think they are so desirable to be around that the gay person will do anything to come back and be with them?  After hurting them and calling them immoral, etc.?  It doesn't make any sense.  If your the good person and you want someone else to be good, you let them learn from you how to be good.  If all the "good people" push the gay person away, who will the gay person then be left being with to learn from?

Where are all those caring churches, families, and friends at the pride parades?  And notice the difference between the people who have some of those things there and those who do not.

[cannon_fodder]

nice post Artist.

[rwarn17588]

Agreed. It's certainly a lot more thoughtful than the excuses for intolerance from the apologists and outright bigots.

[iplaw]

quote:Originally posted by rwarn17588

Agreed. It's certainly a lot more thoughtful than the excuses for intolerance from the apologists and outright bigots.

Who on this thread had been bigoted?  I didn't see anyone, save the OP who stated he was grossed out by gay men kissing, other than that it's been a relatively decent discussion, other than your occasional flame posts without any substance...

[MichaelC]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

I don't think there is any one reason people join the parade or go to it.  Community acceptance, support within the community, rebellious expression, fun, shock value.  Completely different, contradictory, and befuddling, but there ya have it.

I think that's the wonderful thing about the parade and festival.  There's a real sense of community helping itself.  There is a roughly defined "support system" here for the "gay community" at large, and it very much appears during the Festival.

And, the "gay community" for lack of a better term, is extremely diverse.  Transgendered and cross-dressers appear there, but you'll also find Log Cabin Republicans, and a whole bunch of people that wouldn't look out of place at a Baptist Church.  There's really no way to categorize the "gay community" as one simple object.

[iplaw]

How do you post without me ever seeing you under the Online Users tab...you must be a posting ninja.......I thought I responded fast.

[MichaelC]

quote:Originally posted by iplaw

How do you post without me ever seeing you under the Online Users tab...you must be a posting ninja.......I thought I responded fast.

I shoot from the north forty.  Logged off.  Old habit.

[mr.jaynes]

quote:Originally posted by iplaw

quote:
And like what someone has said already, we aren't going to win over anyone who doesn't want to accept us.

Using your analogy, what if Dr. King would have adopted this policy?

quote:
Our straight allies love our freaks too.

Really?  I have a gay brother in-law that I care for very much, as he is the only brother I have (blood or otherwise).  Neither he, nor I appreciate the freaks.

Amazing, IPLAW, we have a thing in common. I myself had a beloved uncle, who happened to be gay, for whom I had and still have, the highest love and regard for. A true character in the best sense of the word, there are many good and treasured stories I could tell here of the good times we all had in his presence. I miss him so much.

As for the freaks, they are a minority within that community, but I understand your point.

Regrettably, there are some in inevitably any community-and this is not exclusively limited to the more extreme members of the gay community- that do seem to believe that tolerance and acceptance is a one-way street, that they are owed great deference without providing much if any respect in return. Nobody ever told them that ya can't get something for nothing. Respect breeds respect, ya gotta give it to get it.

Acceptance and tolerance begins in the home or in ones daily surroundings; it has to be taught and carefully cultivated. In my case, having an uncle who happened to be gay, I think it made it easier for me to accept others who are gay. The fact that I work in my day job in a profession where so many of the men involved in it happen to be gay is another factor; sooner or later, I'm bound to find myself making a friend or two, or seeking professional advice from a trusted colleague. For me, they are all beloved family, friends and valued colleagues.

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

I know I'd hate it if everyone thought of me as the most obnoxious of the heterosexual world.

I don't know, some people think that of me, and it doesn't bother me one whit!