Another Major League Soccer in Tulsa thread...

[USRufnex]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

What is the fan base in Tulsa these days?  I no longer follow soccer as neither of my daughters has ever played and I never stop and watch when it's on TV because:

1) I don't have a clue who any of the players are

2) Don't have an allegiance to a team,

3) I'm not one with long patience for stick and ball sports except for championship games and tend to lean more toward college sports for non-championship contests if I decide to have a camp-out in front of the TV.

I felt more connected to it in the '70's as I was playing Green Country soccer and there was a lot of interest in it.  It was sweeping the nation at the time.  Pele, the biggest soccer celeb most of us had heard of, was playing for the Cosmos, Roughnecks were in the same league.  We had a local team with very visible local players who you could see around town.  They were very real characters and they got a lot of press.

Is there still enough interest to bring in 10,000 to 20,000 fans?  I'm not saying it's not a possibility, but I just have a hard time believing that we would wind up with the sort of crowds that the Roughnecks got.  I wish I could say I'd be there every game to support it, but I'm not one likely to buy a ticket and go.

All I can tell you is there was no real soccer fanbase in Tulsa circa 1978..... it had to be built from scratch.  Green Country Soccer Assoc was only a few years old.  Nobody knew who the players were before we got the team.  The first game against Detroit on a Saturday afternoon managed to only draw 5,872 fans at Skelly.  And the Daily Oklahoman could have cared less about the post-Pele NASL in Tulsa (Pele retired from the Cosmos after the 1977 season before Tulsa got a team)...

TU didn't have a men's soccer team until a few years after the Roughnecks arrived; 99% of the schools in northeast Oklahoma didn't have high school varsity soccer-- Green Country Soccer Assoc was a recreational league; slowly they started "select" teams/leagues that were more competitive...

I believe Oklahoma City or Tulsa has more  potential to succeed in MLS when compared to Tulsa's chances to succeed in the NASL back in 1978.

Noel Lemon as Tulsa's GM, Chris Lincoln at KTUL (Bob Carpenter was color commentator those first few years), and the folks at KRMG radio championed that team and developed a fanbase where there was none; in close cooperation with GCSA...  

Tulsa actually had an exhibition game at Skelly against Manchester United in 1978... it was advertised heavily... yet only a few thousand people showed up because NOBODY really knew who ManU was at the time... and my videotape of the 30,000-plus who filled Skelly Stadium in 1980 to watch Tulsa versus the New York Cosmos?!?  Well, huge cheers would come from the crowd every time the ball was kicked really high... honestly, we were a buncha soccer novices...

Times have changed.  I went to see Union play Norman North in the high school soccer semi's... hundreds of Union fans drove to Jenks after the game was moved last minute due to wet grass fields at Union... these weren't just parents and friends of the players.  And trust me, these kids can play & know the game really well... game was played at the high school stadium in Jenks, the concessions were open and there was a press box announcer... tickets were $5 each... we had none of that back in the 70's and early 80's...

Last year Tulsa metro teams had a clean sweep in soccer... Jenks boys and girls won 6A, Kelley's boys and girls won 5A, and Cascia's boys and girls won 4A... this year's state finals for 6A are at Skelly on Saturday night...

http://www.nscaa.com/hsRes.php?it=1122
NSCAA/adidas® National Rankings
9. Broken Arrow, 14. Union  

Today's kids weren't alive when the North American Soccer League collapsed in 1984 and Tulsa shut down operations after a handful of exhibition games in 1985... heck, even a 27 year old wouldn't remember much about the original NASL Roughnecks ('78-'85) even if they went to a game or two with their parents...

That's why the 2003 exhibition game was so important.  Tulsa's drew over 14,000... OKC's exhibition in Edmond the week before drew 9,300... the next year OKC tried another game in Edmond and drew around 7500 fans... in fact, the only MLS exhibition games that topped Tulsa's were doubleheaders (which included Mexican teams) held at Houston's Robertson stadium-- so nobody has duplicated what Tulsa's done.

Pele?  Well, David Beckham is joining the LA Galaxy this summer... Pele may have been the best player in the history of soccer, but Beckham has something Pele didn't have....... Posh Spice, who'll be shopping Rodeo Drive this summer trailed by the paparazzi...  []

Hmmm... Pele?  New York Cosmos?...... Beckham?  Los Angeles Galaxy?.... "it's all just a little bit of history repeating..."

[USRufnex]

"I've placed information vital to the survival of the future prospects of Major League Soccer in Tulsa and bring back the Roughnecks into the memory systems of this R2 unit.  Chris Lincoln at KTUL will know how to retrieve it.  You must see this droid safely delivered to him on Alderaan.  This is our most desperate hour.  Help me Obi-Wan Kenobi; you're my only hope."

[cannon_fodder]

Watched Salt lake play Denver last night at ESPN2 HD.  Attendance in Denver is stated was 13,458 (in their 19K seat new arena).  Each team scored one 'own goal' to end the game in a tie.

I have to admit, the atmosphere at MLS games is lackluster.  The Europeans make fun of us for turning soccer into a "kids game" with an emphasis on family friendly.  Short of rioting, I like the European craziness closer associated with American Football.  Maybe it will get there someday in the US.

On question for ya ruf:  Why would a team in Salt Lake - presumably the only professional soccer team in the state, call themselves "REAL Salt Lake."  I understand there are club teams, ie. REAL Madrid.  But I dont get it.  Same with "United."  Why would DC or Manchester be divided?  I assumed it was something to do with 2 clubs joining in Manchester at some point, but that never happened in DC.

Enlighten me, I dont get it.

[USRufnex]

Strangely enough, the game at "The Dick,".... er, uh... Dick's Sporting Goods Park last night had more crowd noise than I was used to hearing from Colorado Rapids fans in a while (okay, it was the high pitched screaming of kids, but hey, what can you do...?)... think about how comatose that same crowd would have sounded at Mile High Stadium (or Invesco Field)?

World Cup fails to fan US football fever
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4994746.stm

There are some fun supporters groups who chant and yell and sing....... but too many of these folks look like they just got back from a Star Trek convention or finished a game of Dungeons and Dragons...




Actually, I kinda like the idea of calling a soccer team DC United (after all, we are the United States of America, so why not?... even if it is a pretty cheap ripoff)... I still think the New England Revolution is a cool name for a soccer team...

But I don't understand MLS's fascination with singular nicknames..... (Columbus) Crew, (LA) Galaxy, (Tampa) Mutiny, (Miami) Fusion, (Chicago) Fire, (Dallas) Burn, (Houston) Dynamo, (San Jose) Clash...... makes you wonder if it's a good thing Tulsa didn't get a league owned team in the 90s, lest we be stuck supporting the Tulsa Storm.... yippee! [B)]

San Jose did change their name back to their NASL moniker, the Earthquakes... then lost their team.

Answering your question:  I think it's pretty stupid that the new team in Salt Lake City actually had to have a pronunciation guide for the media (most called the new team REEL Salt Lake, while their team media guide asked them to pronounce it, Ray-Al... go figure).

But SLC has Dave Checketts committed to the team and attendance there has been really good, despite a piss-poor team (that now has Freddie Adu)... Dallas opened their new stadium as "FC Dallas,"  Toronto opened their new stadium this year as "Toronto FC," and Colorado had been rumored for months to be pondering re-branding the team "Rocky Mountain Arsenal," before staying with "Rapids" while changing their team colors...  In fact, one of the few teams with a plural name, the New York MetroStars, got bought out by a certain energy drink company and rebranded "Red Bull New York."

I think Major League Soccer is so afraid of ending up like the defunct-North American Soccer League of the 70s and early 80s, they've done the opposite of the NASL for awhile now... the NASL tried games in huge stadiums with astroturf, cheerleaders, shootouts so no games would end in a tie, and lots of foreign players.... while MLS has games on natural grass trying to get their own smaller venues, supporter groups, and games that don't go into overtime, let alone tiebreakers... the NASL tried to please everyone... MLS tries to find its niche in its hard-core fans...

Yet, the paradox here is that MLS is in cities where soccer gets little/no media attention whatsoever.... then you get ticket staffs who need "butts in seats" and cater to kids and their soccer parents...

I don't have a problem with MLS playing second-fiddle in larger cities like NYC, Chicago and LA but.....


10 Most Overextended Markets in Pro Sports
http://www.bizjournals.com/edit_special/36.html

KC and Denver are listed as two of the top five most overextended markets in pro sports... MLS failed in Tampa and has been looking at expanding into St Louis and Milwaukee over the past year or two... talk of Seattle, San Diego, Atlanta, and even Phoenix recently surfaced...
http://www.bizjournals.com/specials/2006/0213/major_metros_chart.html?hbx=slide_sport_article
(I think the methodology is flawed since it only takes into account major league professional sports, but you get the gist of the argument...)

Where could Tulsa fit?  Well, I still think Tulsans are a pretty adventurous group... I have no explanation for Tulsans' fascination and excitement over eating at Pei-Wei and the jolt in community spirit every few years when the PGA or US Open comes here... kinda belies the redneck, bible belt reputation, dontcha think?

And the average ticket price for Major League Soccer is less than half the average price for NHL or NBA tickets...

http://www.teammarketing.com/fci.cfm?page=fci_nhl_06-07.cfm
http://www.teammarketing.com/fci.cfm?page=fci_nba_04-05.cfm

http://web.mlsnet.com/t104/load.jsp?section=stadium&content=frisco

quote:Despite moving into a sparkling new stadium, the FC Dallas 2005 average ticket price of $13.35 is the second lowest in MLS when compared to 2004 prices. The 2004 average ticket price at the Cotton Bowl was $14.15. As part of the 2005 pricing structure, full season ticket packages for FC Dallas are priced significantly lower versus 2004 prices at the Cotton Bowl. 82% of the seats in Pizza Hut Park have an equal to or lower price than their 2004 Cotton Bowl counterpart.

[AVERAGE JOE]

quote:Originally posted by USRufnex

Per usual, AJ... you've missed the point.

I can say MLS would be viable in Tulsa.
Cannon Fodder can say MLS would NOT be viable in Tulsa.

If Cannon Fodder would like to argue why the commissioner of Major League Soccer was wrong in proclaiming, "The timing might be right early in our expansion process, but one way or another, Oklahoma is a great market place for us," he is certainly welcome to do so...

But if he gives incomplete or inaccurate  information, I will call him on it.  And I expect that if I offer incomplete or inaccurate information, he can/will call me on it.

The reason why I started posting on these forums was because I needed to confront those people who made grossly inaccurate assertions about Global Development Partners and their plans for the East Village back in Nov 2005...

You were most definitely one of the worst of them.  

Hugs-n-kisses,


--Ruf

And you continue to miss the biggest point of all -- people express their OPINIONS on this forum. So your point about you and fodder expressing your opinions about the viability of MLS in Tulsa...

If you want to challenge someone's opinion, fine. If you feel the MLS commissioner's statements effectively refute someone's opinions, fine. But you react like it's some personal affront to you if an opinion is expressed that counters yours, like how dare such a blight on humanity be allowed to occur. Oh, the drama! [:O]

I got news for you -- people will continue to post their opinions on this forum. If you don't like it, post a rebuttal and be done with it.

[rwarn17588]

MLS: Half the ticket price of NHL and NBA tickets, one-half of the excitement.

Considering how boring the NHL and NBA have become in recent years, that says something.

[USRufnex]

quote:Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE

And you continue to miss the biggest point of all -- people express their OPINIONS on this forum.
-----------------------------------------
I got news for you -- people will continue to post their opinions on this forum. If you don't like it, post a rebuttal and be done with it.

Yawn.  

Here we go again... guess I'm in trouble again with a self appointed member of the TulsaNow Forum Police...  

I have strong opinions.  I post in a confrontational style.  I've been posting like this on a handful of forums off-and-on over the past five years... and I've never censored anyone on this site... unlike your efforts to censor me (on a thread I created, BTW)...

If someone doesn't like my opinions or my style of posting, at least they can read most of the content of my posts regarding the prospects of professional soccer in Tulsa, and find lots of quotes, history, links and information on the subject...

If Patric starts a thread on the ills of modern street lighting, I will choose to censor myself by refraining from posting on a subject I'm not very familiar with.  So, if I post a message like "Acorn lights are cool... low-glare streetlights are boring," I'd expect Patric would hold little respect for my opinions and would say so...

And if someone makes a blanket statement appearing as fact or conventional wisdom in enlightening me that Major League Soccer, the World Cup, or soccer in general is boring........ I will respond in a personal fashion, with my opinion that I'd much rather watch any two hour soccer game with a 2-1 score over any three hour Major League Baseball game or an all day round of pro golf from the PGA tourney... and I will point out that Tulsa's 5,000 MLS season ticket commitments from 2003 is more than the largest crowd to watch the Tulsa Talons so far this season (last night's crowd of 4,994)...

It is my opinion that you confuse "drama" with confrontation, sarcasm, and general snarky-ness...

So, if you have problems with me, there's a nifty feature on this site called an ignore button.  


*****Tulsa high schools were looking to sweep state championships in 6A, 5A and 4A high school soccer last night... Union boys and girls took 6A, Cascia Hall's boys and girls took 4A, and in 5A, Bishop Kelley's girls won their 9th straight state championship... the only team from the other side of the Turner Turnpike to take state in soccer was OKC McGuiness boys, who beat Claremore 3-0 to win 5A...

[AVERAGE JOE]

yawn back at ya. You take pride in calling people on their BS... and so do I. That's why we snipe at each other, because frankly we're both full of it.

Back on topic, I wish TU would have done what they needed to do to accommodate an MLS franchise. Opinion alert: I think that ship has probably sailed for us for the forseeable future, so that TU deal was our best opportunity. We didn't take advantage of it.

[Rico]

"And if someone makes a blanket statement appearing as fact or conventional wisdom in enlightening me that Major League Soccer, the World Cup, or soccer in general is boring........"

^
Rufnex.. I have been giving more thought to this whole soccer vs baseball thing... and just maybe I can give you a some small insight as to why you are met with such strong opposition in Tulsa OK....

Now Bear in Mind this is just IMHO... not looking to start a rant or anything..

In Tulsa... Oklahoma for that matter.... when you see a man wearing something that looks like a fancy pair of boxer shorts and a t-shirt
running across what could easily be a cow pasture... There is no need to get excited. It may just be one of the neighbors trying out some new weight loss program..

But when you see a man wearing what look to be those fancy designer pajamas and swinging a stick and hitting a little ball in something that looks as though it is out of the movie "Gladiator".....

That my friend is excitement..

[USRufnex]

quote:Originally posted by Rico

But when you see a man wearing what look to be those fancy designer pajamas and swinging a stick and hitting a little ball in something that looks as though it is out of the movie "Gladiator".....

That my friend is excitement..

With all the problems professional baseball has had in the last few years with players on steroids, your use of the movie  "Gladiator" as a metaphor seems a bit ironic... no?

Football and ice hockey are contact sports... aside from a player occasionally sliding into second base or home plate, baseball is not a contact sport.

BTW, I used one of those free Reasor's tickets to go to the Drillers game against Wichita tonight... didn't make it past the fourth inning.  The biggest cheers from the crowd came when the milk carton and oreo cookie were having a "dance-off" and the race on the scoreboard between a cartoon ram, rooster and a dog...  Go dog, go!  

Then there's all that traditional baseball organ music...  [)]  

To each his own.

http://web.mlsnet.com/sights/index.jsp?club=mls&week=0513
If you want my idea of an exciting soccer game, click the link above onto the 350K Video Highlights from the 05/12 Fire @ Toronto FC game (I don't think Toronto will be providing free seat cushions again anytime soon)...... then compare those highlights to the ones from the 05/12 FC Dallas @ Kansas City Wizards game from Arrowhead Stadium and you'll see one of the many reasons why I think Tulsa is a better  market for MLS than KC....

Kansas City attendances at Arrowhead Stadium so far this season...

--Wednesday, April 25
Toronto FC Kansas City Wizards -- 7,438

--Saturday, May 5
Columbus Crew at Kansas City Wizards -- 7,426

--Saturday, May 12  
FC Dallas at Kansas City Wizards -- 10,141


...and here's my favorite reason to favor Tulsa...

"Below, an estimated crowd of more than 14,000 watches the Kansas City Wizards take on the Dallas Burn during a Major League Soccer exhibition game at Skelly Stadium on April 5, 2003."
STEPHEN HOLMAN / Tulsa World


--3,500 out of that crowd alone signed up for season tickets, giving credit card and checking information...

[USRufnex]

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

Can you tell us what cities have built soccer stadiums recently and what they cost to build and operate?

Questions & Answers with Peter Wilt, former general manager of the Chicago Fire and current chief executive officer of Milwaukee Professional Soccer LLC.

Recent questions (some asked by yours truly) from bigsoccer.com:

Q:  What would be the annual operating expenses for Toyota Park or a proposed Milwaukee stadium?
A:  Milwaukee Stadium: Approx. $2.7M plus any property taxes.

Q:  How much less (I'm assuming it's less) are those operating expenses compared to the United Center or Soldier Field or Wrigley or Comisk----er uh, US Cellular Park?!?
A:  Just guessing: 60% of the others.

Q:  And what would be the differences in operating expenses for a grass field versus field turf?
A:  There are a lot of variables, but $250k to $500k annually is a reasonable range.

Also, the combination that got a downtown stadium built in Toronto... http://www.canadasoccer.com/eng/media/viewArtical.asp?Press_ID=2470

quote:The Federal Government, through Infrastructure Canada, has agreed to contribute $27-million while the Ontario Government has committed a further $8-million. The City of Toronto will contribute the land and $9.8-million and will own the stadium. MLSEL has agreed to pay a total of $18-million ($8-million toward the construction and a further $10-million to secure the naming rights for the stadium). The group has also agreed to provide a $2-million guarantee against operational losses.

Up until fall 2006, Wilt was working with Global Development Partners on this Milwaukee project.... about the same time GDP was talking with former mayor LaFortune for the same type of plan for MLS in Tulsa... in August 2005, this appeared in the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinal... http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=345396

Average Joe:  "Back on topic, I wish TU would have done what they needed to do to accommodate an MLS franchise. Opinion alert: I think that ship has probably sailed for us for the forseeable future, so that TU deal was our best opportunity. We didn't take advantage of it."

I'd just say 1994 was probably the easiest opportunity Tulsa had for a team.  But a league owned team in Tulsa could very well have suffered the same fate as the league owned team in Tampa.... it failed and no local owner/investors surfaced to save it.

I still think the best opportunity was in late 2005 when Tim Kissler and Global Equity Partners came in-- a couple of years after Winnercomm/Tulsa World sponsored a successful exhibition game in 2003 that culminated in 5000 season ticket requests... you have these people from Wash,DC with a resume that includes Gallery Place so they have the kind of expertise that could pull it off.  An excellent 60 acre mixed use TIF project that would have brought MLS to Tulsa, included 40 acres of "walkable urbanity" for downtown, and a new stadium that wouldn't have been financed by regressive sales taxes...

Since the Tulsa group didn't seem to have the $$$ for a $15 mil expansion fee in 2005, it's doubtful they have the $35 mil expansion fee that's been quoted to interested parties in Las Vegas, Phoenix and Seattle/Portland of late... but if TU's interests coincide with MLS's, a lower capacity Chapman Stadium with extensive suites and a suitable field could offer MLS a reasonable and financially viable option in Tulsa... it's a longshot that would need to pique the interests of out-of-state/country investors, but according to Peter Wilt, things have changed in the past few months after MLS's signing of David Beckham...

More from Peter Wilt, quote from 5/22/2007:

"Within days of the Beckham signing we received inquiries from English investors through intermediaries. Nothing has come of it since however. We have also recently gotten serious interest from investor candidates in NYC, California and Milwaukee. i think it's fair to say that none or maybe one of them would have shown interest prior to Beckham's signing."

Q:  In your opinion, how much is David Beckham worth to the Galaxy, MLS, and U.S. Soccer?

A:  I don't think you can put a figure on it, but certainly much more than $32.5M over five years....and frankly, he's worth more than the bloated $250M figure that included endorsements and his share of new revenue streams. The numbers below are educated guesses and some may be shared with the player, but it will give you a general idea of the types and amounts of revenue an icon like David Beckham can generate.

The value is direct and indirect and includes, among other things:

* Increased ticket revenue for LAG ($5M/Year)
* Increased ticket revenue for rest of League ($5M/Year)
* Increased sponsorship revenue for LAG and League ($5M+/Year)
* Increased broadcast revenue for LAG and League ($5M+/Year)
* Increased value of HDC sponsorship, suites and club seats leading to renewals ($10M+/Year)
* Increased ancillary stadium revenues (parking, concessions, merchandise) ($2M+/Year)
* Significant exhibition tour fees ($5M+/Year)
* LAG jersey sponsorship ($3M/Year)
* Increased value in teams ()
* Increased interest in the League by investors ()
* Increased interest in the League by players ()
* Increased credibility in the product ()

------------------------------------------------

Updates... after the success so far of Toronto's downtown stadium, Houston Dynamo has a signed letter of intent with the City of Houston to negotiate for a 20k-22k capacity downtown stadium next door to Minute Maid Park.... and after all the talk of a youth soccer complex as part of a stadium deal in Johnson County, Kansas for the KC Wizards, OnGoal LLC is now looking at building a stadium on the site of the old Bannister Mall in KC,MO... ironic after OnGoal made it a point to tell the voters of Overland Park that a youth soccer complex would be integral to the success of a stadium there... last fall OnGoal LLC said they would build the stadium at no cost to the taxpayers in exchange for a $75-million publicly funded youth soccer complex... $75-million?!?  The taxpayers weren't fooled the the bond issue was voted down.  Construction costs for a Houston stadium are currently quoted at $70 million...