Falling Behind

[RecycleMichael]

quote:Originally posted by AMP
I don't have a stereo, cds or 8 track tapes.  

I plan to go to some garage sales and hook you up with some 8 track tapes. Nobody should live without music.

[AMP]

"Falling Behind or Being Screwed"

My point is in the 50s, 60s and 70s I and Municipalities and Businesses were able to purchase much, much more with our dollar than after the mid 1980s ad it seems to be less every year up to today.

I have no loans or credit cards, well I have a pre-paid credit card so I can rent cars and book motel rooms, but no open line of credit or open account credit cards.  I have zero interest payments, and work off cash totally, and have for the past 16 years.  I wrote off all our accounts receivables five years ago, and stopped accepting credit cards, checks and negotiables.  I accept cash only, I do not play the credit or credit card game either coming or going

I worked at minimum wage when I was 13, and saved up enough money in less than 3 months to afford to purchase with cash a brand new street legal Honda 90 Motorcycle. Honda continues to manufacture basically that same engine and chassis today.

My driver's license was $1.25 and I got that the day I turned 14. Funny, when completing quotes for insurance online the software forms will not allow for the answer of "age when you started driving" to be 14yrs old. LOL

We were not required to have Liability Insurance, we had no-fault insurance then in Oklahoma I believe. If one wanted comprehensive insurance, they paid for it, others were not required by a "lobby law" to have insurance. We had no required State Inspection Sticker, and no helmet law. Only safety requirement was eye protection.

The license tag and title ran around $12.00 for the year, tag was $8.50 for motorcycles 50cc up to 1200cc Harley Davidsons. Most parking lots in front of Jr High schools were packed with motorscooters, Cushmans, Mustangs, Hondas, Yamahas, Suzukis, and later Kawasakis. Kids had lots of fun on their motorcycles. We rode them to the lake, to school, all over town and our moms did not have to take us places. We were mobile! Freedom of the road baby..

Pop was a nickel, gas was around 16 cents per gallon, and a movie cost a dime for a double feature. Candy machines ran on a penny not a quarter.

We had the freedom of very inexpensive physical transportation then, unlike today. Sure you may have advanced communication now, but the cost of physical transportation is out of reach for many, and it costs much more per mile/year to afford basic transportation, while the wages have not kept up with the increase. Thus the "Finance Plan" on most everything today.

Gota love the automobile sales question "What do you want your monthly payments to be?" I don't want to borrow the car on the basis that if I have a hiccup and am injured or loose my income a recovery service will be lurking around the corner to snatch up my chattel mortgaged goods at a moments notice, I want to own the vehicle.

Reason you see so many cars parked around in the street may be because the owners cannot afford to be driving them the way we did in the 60s and 70s. If we were parked it was typically along Brookside, or at Pennington's Drive Inn.  Our bikes and cars rarely cooled off then, we were mobile, and not as in mobile phone either. Plus we had lots of tire spinning Horsepower ! LOL

At 16 cents per gallon we could drive a very fun 10 Mpg V8 powered Car for 30,000 miles for $480. Today one could only travel 1,600 miles at today's fuel cost, and you would need to use fuel additives to boost the fuel octane to even attempt to have what we had then.

Even bicycles today are not near as quality as in the 60's and 70's, or as cool. Take a Schwinn Stingray for instance. Those are still around, and many are in great condition. They were made in Chicago, using U.S Grade American steel and assembled by Americans. Sure they have aluminum alloy bikes today that are lighter, but will they be around, working and collectable in 40 years from now?

I owned a few 8 Track players and tapes. Mommas and the Pappas, Kingston Trio, Magic Carpet Ride era. The 8 Track Tape actually had more surface area of oxide than the later cassette format. 8 Tracks had much better sound quality than the cassette, and lasted longer. They did not suffer from the capstan crash as much. They also were more like a CD player in the fact that one could switch from song to song without fast forwarding or rewinding the tape as with the cassette.

Analog Tube type amplifiers for guitars, keyboards and vocals back then were much better quality and had more sole than the digital format. Most professional rock musicians prefer Tube type amplifiers over digital still today.

Either the devaluation of the dollar or lack of something here in the market place, or both seems to have created a market that seems to thrive on cheap disposable products made from "China White" plastic and some funky soft metals, manufactured in China for some reason. Hard to find high quality goods in today's market unless one steps up to very expensive professional grade equipment.

Been to a Radio Shack lately or electronics parts supply and tried to buy balanced connectors, phone or RCA plugs? Good grief, you can bend the metal with your fingers. Cheap China material being pawned off on us. Not saying those folks are not capable of using better material or building the products with precision, but whoever is writing the specs on this stuff they are shipping us must think we all need a component that will only need to work once or twice in its life.

As I said, something with the dollar and our markets changed and it seems to get worse by the year.

[waterboy]

You know I love nostalgia as much as the next guy but you sound like one of the Everly Bros.

I also lived through that period and enjoyed its perks. But you use prices without relating them to the average income at the time, the avg. size of families, the cost of real estate, the differences in investing patterns and general more's. I don't find much value in comparing generations that thrived under different environments without using those other factors.

For instance, a Mustang may have only cost $2999 but the average accountant made $7500 yr. so that was 40% of his annual. If you bought a home for $25K you were living large in the burbs near 31st & Yale, but the minimum wage was $.90 hr. Using a loan to income ratio of 2.5:1 that means the accountant lives in an apartment.  Thats the only way you can accurately reflect the good ole days.

Yeah, a honda 90 was cheap, Honda was using state of the art steel mills we set up for them just 15years earlier which made their products cheaper and they were tapping into a new market of baby boomers that Americans hadn't recognized yet. I remember the row of Honda 50's in front of Wilson Jr. High school. I also remember one of those 14yr olds whose clutch stuck and he hit the Algebra teacher as she walked to her car causing a compound leg fracture (he said he wasn't aiming!). The cycles disappeared soon after.

[cannon_fodder]

Everything is relative.  Each dollar today buys much less than it did 'back in the day.'  However, the average American has more purchasing power today than they ever have (though the recent decline in the dollar may have reversed that high mark).

It all has to do with floating currencies, inflation, and money creation.  

In 1964 a Honda 90 cost $400.  Minimum wage was $1.15.  So indeed, in 3 months of 40 hour work weeks you could have earned enough money to buy the motorcycle.

What you might not remember is that the 1964 Honda 90 weighed a total of 176 pounds at 89cc, with 1 cylinder and a grand total of 8 HP. Max speed was 60 mph. All that with no pollution controls.  
http://powersports.honda.com/the_story/heritage/heritage_milestone.asp?Decade=1960&TargetUrl=Milestone/Milestone_Model_0084.asp&bhcp=1

Currently, 3 months at minimum wage would put you are around $3,000.  While you will not be able to find a motorcycle without pollution controls or one that only produces 8hp, you can find the performance for the money.

Nostalgia often concentrates on the good things.

[aoxamaxoa]

It was that change, out of fear, to a council form of government that has divided our city and created the mismanagement of our infrastructure. 2025 enhanced that splintering of community.

A thought for the day: in "An Enemy of the People," playwright Henrik Ibsen wrote, "A community is like a ship; everyone ought to be prepared to take the helm."
I think Ibsen also wrote that the majority is never right.

[iplaw]

quote:I like fruitcake.

And now it all begins to make sense...[]

[rwarn17588]

Sheesh, AMP, if you think things are that bad, maybe you ought to check out early or go to a shrink.

I'm old enough to remember the 1970s quite well, and I don't want to return to those days, thank you very much.

The 1970s was the era of Richard Nixon, Jimmy Carter and disco. 'Nuff said.

I have no time or patience for those who pine over good ol' days that weren't all that good.

[AMP]

I am comparing a 13-14 year old persons income from then to today. Most earn minimum wage, so for arguments sake I am keeping the comparisions to that standard.  I realise some will want to compare professional positions and other labor rates to the mix, but this is what I am using for comparision of then to today.

1965
My Wage $1.25 per hour
40 x 1.25 less taxes = $40 per week take home
Motorcycle $280 + $8.50 = $288.50
First Year of ownership
365 days 288.50 = 79 cents per day
Second year of ownership
Tag $8.50 / 365 days = .02 per day

2007
Wage $5.15/$5.85
40 x 5.85 = 234 less taxes around $184 take home
Motorcycle $2,700 + Insurance $1,200 + tag 479 = 4,379
First Year of ownership
365 days 4,379 = $11.99 per day
Second year of ownership
Insurance and tag $1,200 / 365 = 3.28 per day
_______________________________________________

I took home $40 per week earning $1.25 per hour working 40 hours per week cleaning the front entrances, playing the Shopping Special tape recordings every 15 minutes, stocking the pop machine and pushing in grocery karts off the parking lot at Oertle's store. My first Honda 90 was a CT-90 Push rod version 1964 model.  The one pictured above on the link was a Super 90 which was an overhead cam, and cost more.  Believe mine was around $280 delivered. I also had to buy a pair of Paulson Bubble Goggles to pass the eye protection law, they cost 49 cents.  

Recently the standard has been raised to allow 14 yr olds to ride 250cc machines on the roads, the dealers wanted that in the 60s but could not get it past the State Legislature until recently.  Their logic was the 5hp machines were too underpowered and slow to be safe.  DUH!  

Trust me we all wanted 250s or larger to start with.  Richie Ward had an X6 Hustler Suzuki when he was 15 and it was a rocket, would spin the tire from a dead start in second gear.  Dale Bruner had a 1965 Yamaha Big Bear 250 Scrambler.  Both were super fast for the time, as they had two stroke engines.  Most of us  removed the emblem on the side covers that indicated the size of the engine, in hopes of faking out anyone knowing the 5hp rule.  LOL  
______________________________________________

The first year my motorcycle cost me a total of .79 cents per day by my caculations.  The second year it cost me only the price of the license tag which was $8.50 per year, or .02 cents per day.  This does not include gas or maintenance costs which were very small.

Keep in mind we did not have mandatory liability insurance requirements then, if you wanted insurance on your vehicle, you purchased it yourself.  I never had insurance on my Honda 90 as the insurance exceeded the value of the bike in about three years, depending on the condition.  I just saved up cash and bought a new one.  Today, liability insurance runs around $1,200 or more per year depending on the size of the motorcycle and age of operator.  And if the buyer chooses the "Finance Plan" they are also required to purchase the Comprehensive Replacement Insurance in addition, which drives up the costs even higher.    

The $1,200 insurance would make the second year of ownership of the motorcycle today equal $3.28 per day plus tag and taxes which are much higher than the tag then which was only $8.50.  Compared to when I owned mine it was .02 per day the second year.

Based on a $3,000 purchase price plus 2% exise tax and tag and the $1,200 insurance the cost  for the motorcycle is $11.99 per day.  Second year and subsequent years are $3.28 or higher per day.  In 1965 that second year was only .02 cents per day.  

So if you own a vehicle and have insurance on it for 5 years at $1,200 per year you have spent $7,000 more than I did in the 60's just on insurance alone to get from point A to B.  We were not interested in going much more than 40mph on the streets in Tulsa, however they were in much better shape then than now as I recall.

The first thing most Honda 90 owners did to their motorcycle was to remove the heavy clumsy muffler.  Most of us wore penny loafers and you used the toe of your right shoe to block the exit of the pipe when passing by cops to muffle the sound and when sneaking back through the neighborhood in the summer past curfew which was 9pm. Believe the time line was 6am till 9pm, unless used for a paper route then you could be out earlier.    

When I turned 15 I bought a new Honda CL-77 which was called a 305 Scrambler from Jandebeurs on Pine believe it ran $480.  Again, first thing was to remove the bulky heavy muffler.   I bought a new Honda CB-750 their second year in production, believe I paid $1,100 cash from Phil Cats in Miami, Oklahoma.  Then in 1972 I bought a new Kawasaki Z1-900 which I paid $1,200 for brand new.  Kerker was making exhausts then, and we replaced the heavy bulky exhaust systems with the lighweight four into one systems.  

Plus if the rider is under 18 in Oklahoma they must wear a helmet.  Although passengers in four wheel vehicles are not requried to wear helmets nor are passengers in airplanes required to wear helmets and parachutes, both of which are proven to save lives.

[AMP]

I recall there was a law in the 60s that required housing developers to build smaller homes in their areas.  There were several homes in South Tulsa near 61st and Sheridan area that were band new which sold for $10,000 in 1964.  Others  in the same neighborhood were upwards of $40,000. Vernon Mudd homes were in the higher range, however they were close to the $10,000 homes.  It believe the plan was to diversify the neighborhoods and mix income groups of folks without building tacky apartments.

[AMP]

Here is one thing I remember that began the demise and created damage to the standard of living prior to the 1980s.  

One major thing that caused the prices of Japanese manufactured motorcyles sold in the US to increase dramatically in the early 1980s was Harley Davidson's lobby to impose uneeded tarrifs on the imports to boost their sales and profits.  

Note on the chart below, that the peak of manufacturing of Japanese motorcycles was in 1981 and 1982.  Dropped off dramatically after that and has gone down ever since.  

http://www.jama.org/statistics/motorcycle/production/mc_prod_year.htm

[cannon_fodder]

AMP, a Honda 90 had an 89CC motor.  Why compare that to a new 600cc motor?

I tried to rationally explain that your memory of your fond new bike was not entirely accurate.  I did not work.

You are comparing apples to oranges.

In my youth, I worked my fingers to the bone for most of a month just to by a walkman.  Now, my son can work for an afternoon and by a device that is 10 times better than a walkman.  Man, times were tough when I was young.

/means nothing.

and back on topic. POTOMAC13:
If you are looking for a place where everyone nods in agreement, you should leave this forum and also never come to Tulsa.  Tulsa is a fairly  liberal city in the bible belt, most people agree on very little.  We disagree, share opinions, sway each other, and change our minds.  Isn't that great?  If you do not think so, run away.  Go find somewhere that requires everyone to be a cog, where sheeple fall in line and agree.

The nostalgia on this board is getting a bit thick.   Most memories are selective at best.  Not to mention, when you were growing up how concerned were you with infrastructure funding?  Probably not very, so any debate at that time on the issue was probably lost on you.

[AMP]

Speaking of Infrastructure and taxable improvements to improve the quality of life and provide leisure and entertainment.... it was not too many years ago our tax dollars provided the land for two things that a few thousand other people and I enjoyed doing.

1. Attending races at Tulsa Speedway at the Fairgrounds

2. Attending Bell's Amusement Park at the Fairgrounds.  

Both are not available any longer.  

Tulsa Speedway began in the early 1930's I believe and left the Fairgrounds in the early 1980s. Bell's begain around 1950 and left in 2007. Both seemed to of lasted around 50 years.  The racetrack at State Fair Park in Oklahoma City is over 50 years old, and continues to attract large crowds on Friday nights for weekly racing, and on other nights for specials held there, plus it us used during the Oklahoma State Fair for motorsports events.    

There does seem to be much more paved parking available there today than in the past.  Not sure what for on most weekends, but there is more parking.  

Two more things that are worse today than in the past as they both are now missing entirely
 

[AMP]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

AMP, a Honda 90 had an 89CC motor.  Why compare that to a new 600cc motor?

I tried to rationally explain that your memory of your fond new bike was not entirely accurate.  I did not work.

You are comparing apples to oranges.

In my youth, I worked my fingers to the bone for most of a month just to by a walkman.  Now, my son can work for an afternoon and by a device that is 10 times better than a walkman.  Man, times were tough when I was young.

/means nothing.

and back on topic. POTOMAC13:
If you are looking for a place where everyone nods in agreement, you should leave this forum and also never come to Tulsa.  Tulsa is a fairly  liberal city in the bible belt, most people agree on very little.  We disagree, share opinions, sway each other, and change our minds.  Isn't that great?  If you do not think so, run away.  Go find somewhere that requires everyone to be a cog, where sheeple fall in line and agree.

The nostalgia on this board is getting a bit thick.   Most memories are selective at best.  Not to mention, when you were growing up how concerned were you with infrastructure funding?  Probably not very, so any debate at that time on the issue was probably lost on you.

If you follow the thread, one of my first posts pointed to the price of a 3 cylinder street bike which was a Kawasaki H2-750 that retailed for $995 at the time.  That was prior to Harley Davidson going to Congress and their lobby working to impose uneeded tarrifs on the Japanese manufactures which that and financing coupled with  mandatory insurance laws drove the pricing up from $995 to 1,495 to 1,995 and up to 2,995 within three years.  Today's price of a comparable mid size motorcycle although 150ccs smaller at 600ccs, is is $8,000.  

Manufacturing numbers of Japanese motorcycles plunged from 7 million units in 1982 down to 4 million in 1984 and down to around 2.6 million in 1987.   In 2005 they were only 1.7 million.  

The motorcycle you linked is a Honda S-90 and not the model I owned, but close.  Yes they were 89cc but called a 90 for marketing reasons.  Actually the pushrod version I and many others owned had 5hp as that was the state law at the time for anyone age 14 up to 15 and 364 days old.  At 16 you could be licensed for any size/horsepower motorcycle or automobile and light truck.

Not sure of what part of my memory of that motorcycle I have forgotten or recalled incorrectly, but it has been a number of years since I owned it.  I recall riding it all over the area, and up to Keystone Dam and the park on many weekends taking the old two lane highway 51 that runs along side of the Arkansas River. And not spending much money on gasoline, oil or tires for the two years I rode it.  The Honda 305 Scrambler had much more power and could handle the divided highways at higher speeds.

Another thing that is worse than it was in the 60s is Sales Tax.  When I was younger we could purchase items at the store that if they came to a total of less than 49cents there was no sales tax.  Over 50 cents is where the tax began.  You only neeed to make several purchases below 49 cents to gain a few pennies which then could buy you a bottle of pop for a nickle.

Not sure about the MP3 player being a better device than what we owned in the past.  Time will tell on the life expectency of those units wrapped in the "China White" plastic. I own an MP3 player and a portable CD player.  Bother are less than a year old and neither have all the original features still working.  The MP3 Player will not even play songs any longer, but it still works to hold the 1 Gig SD card so I can download images from my digital camera, which the cable connection on the camera failed after two months of use.  LOL  

One thing for certain, portable CD Players, Cassetted Players, and MP3 players, they all eat batteries like they are going out of style.  People getting rich on them are the battery manufactures.

Guess things are going great now for folks in the Insurance Business, Battery Manufacturing Business and in the Petroleum Business, and maybe some that manufacture equipment and ordinance for Warfare.  

If a County or City wants to build a dam, I would recommend they build one that has the capability to house a turbine capable of producing electrical power, which may at one time offset the expense of building the dam.

No one ever answered the question of why they tore down the other Low Water dams that once were on the Arkansas River below the Keystone Dam.  Who paid for those, and why were they torn down?  Anyone have the answer?

[waterboy]

I don't have all the answer but some. There was only one low water dam in Sand Springs. It was built around the same time as the one here in Tulsa with similar engineering. It supposedly had a cable operated ferry that crossed from one side to the other as well. However, the dam was an attractive nuisance for fishermen and youth. People would walk out on the dam or fish, drink and swim near it. Once they went over the dam, the undertow would hold them under water. They lost about a dozen people in a few short years.

It seems the dam was eroded under its base in places also. I spoke with a man who claims it was not unusual to see a tree float down the river be sucked under the dam and pop up on the other side. He also claimed that was the manner in which it took his brother-in-law who was fishing upstream of it.

It was built with tax money. It was part of the bi-centennial celebration I believe. River City Park adjacent to the old dam has a sign referring to its 1976 birth. The city finally tired of the risk it posed, both financially and human and destroyed it. Actually blew it up. You can still see remnants of it when the water is down. An island formed where they bulldozed some of the debris.

That is all anectdotal from locals. I'm sure the SS historical museum has more.