KTUL: Drillers moving downtown?

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle

They can easily say, "if the river tax passes, private money will be spent to build a ballpark in Tulsa"

Nice try, but not at all likely to happen. The river tax will help spur river development not downtown development. The Branson Landing guy does not seem that interested in a ballpark and the Mayor and others want the ballpark downtown. The only thing that will get the ballpark downtown is downtown private development. What private developer would mess with all the hassle downtown has, and bad demographics, when they can easily go to the suburbs where the population growth, availale property that doesnt have to be "remediated", and money is?

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

quote:Originally posted by Floyd

quote:Originally posted by YoungTulsan

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle

I predict the stadium to be a campaign promise for the river tax.

Totally agree.  I posted in the other thread a question of whether this Jenks Drillers development could just be the oligarchy trying to scare us into voting yes on the upcoming tax.  The Tulsa World has orchestrated phase one.

If you think the Tulsa World or Tulsa leadership has the ability to orchestrate such a ploy, you're living in the clouds.  If the "oligarchy" were this shrewd, would the city already be at such a disadvantage that business owners give serious considerations to cow pastures?  Give me a break.

Well that cow pasture has unbeatable demographics.

Yet, a cow pasture it is. Infrastructure improvements that the high demographics of Jenks are sure to pay...Are you aware that Crowe said the low water dam is being built slightly upstream of the creek that is the southern boundary of this land because of the pollution it would put into the lake? So now it is bounded by both a polluted waterway and smoke stacks of the power plant. There is a prevailing South wind all summer long that will drift towards the stadium. But the demographics will save the day. I really hope they get this thing. They need to grow up and face the same issues that bigger cities do.

[TheArtist]

Would it have been better if it were a cement factory or Nordam site with worse demographics?

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

Would it have been better if it were a cement factory or Nordam site?

Yes. There is existing infrastructure to serve a stadium in those areas. As well as existing services. All things equal it will cost more in Jenks for about the same return. But I'm all about private enterprise. I just think the public who will have to pay for the basics of a development ought to know its not a free ride.

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

Would it have been better if it were a cement factory or Nordam site?

Yes. There is existing infrastructure to serve a stadium in those areas. As well as existing services. All things equal it will cost more in Jenks for about the same return. But I'm all about private enterprise. I just think the public who will have to pay for the basics of a development ought to know its not a free ride.

Don't make these assumptions about the impact on Jenks' infrastructure. While it is a pasture, this is not an area of "sprawl" for Jenks. While what most people think of as being Jenks is the older part of town to the north, the vast majority of people living in Jenks live south of this area.

The site is bounded on the north by the Creek Turnpike/Aquarium Drive, and Aquarium (known as 101st in Tulsa) is already an improved parkway with trees, jogging trail and decorative lighting, even if it's only two lanes.

The area to the north is already developed with the power plant and high-end residential. The east is the river, and the west has more land that borders Elm (Peoria in Tulsa) and some really, really high-end residential across Elm. And while Elm is not improved today, the funding to improve that street has already been passed. Construction should start soon on a project to widen Elm to a five lane parkway, also with jogging path to 111th. Elm north and south of this stretch is already improved.

Water should not be an issue as everything passes north and south up and down Elm already. Jenks has already overbuilt it's fire protection with it's new second station on the south side. So, the main new need for infrastructure will be a new 106th Street to link Elm to the project. A street that will be about ½ a mile long, nothing big at all. That and the strain on police, but that is easily solved with the increased sales taxes.

The area in question is a empty zone right in the middle of down due to it all being in the flood plain, which is the reason for the new lake in middle of the development, but it's hardly a expansion of the city with all new infrastructure needs.

[Vision 2025]

[/quote]

Are you aware that Crowe said the low water dam is being built slightly upstream of the creek that is the southern boundary of this land because of the pollution it would put into the lake? So now it is bounded by both a polluted waterway and smoke stacks of the power plant. There is a prevailing South wind all summer long that will drift towards the stadium. [/quote]

Actually there are two power plants to the south of the identified site along the river but these have no odor issues associated with them as they are power generation facilities, not refineries.  The "smoke" you see is primarily steam from the cooling towers and the boiler combustion stacks and natural gas burns pretty clean.  PSO's plant, appears to be a very clean facility and a good neighbor...they have bordered nice housing for 20+ years.

In my opinion, water pollution is not "the" issue with Polecat Creek but not long ago it was a very troubled stream.  I don't recall using that term, unless you call dirt pollution... I call it silt. I believe you are confusing me with someone else?  

Silt loading and a large inventoried wetland just to the north of the mouth of it is the problem with having a dam downstream of Polecat Creek (but that wetland/greenbelt would likely make a good buffer between the two uses).  Yes, Polecat Creek is a receiving this stream for a waste water discharge load and that was taken into account by INCOG's water quality modeling (Kellyville's lagoons, then Sapulpa's new state of the art plant which is located just East of the Turner Turnpike) but Sapulpa also has reserved discharge rights into the Arkansas below this location and there are four (5) other active permitted discharges in the river reach below the identified dam site (PSO, Jenks WWTP, Glenpool WWTP - relocated from a trib. of Polecat, and Cogentrix (sp), Kimberly Clark, and don't forget 2 active sand operations), between the mouth of Polecat and about 135th S.  

In addition to these enviromental factors a key reason to be upstream of Polecat Creek, is one of lake hydraulics and getting the proposed lake to reach upstream as far as practical into Tulsa.  The rendering shown has the dam lined up pretty close to where I believe it likely needs to be which upcoming river engineering work will confirm.  

Oh and from a conversation with the River District developers they are very much in favor of a water-taxi landing to serve the area!

Hope that helps,

Kirby Crowe, Vision 2025 Program Director

[swake]

My best guess on how this will play out, and I think the best result is that the Drillers will get a new home at about 2nd and Elgin on current city property built with a combination of city revenue bonds paid with lease payments, naming rights and a TIFF on the new downtown Wal-Mart. Call them the Blue Dome Drillers.

[Oil Capital]

quote:Originally posted by swake

My best guess on how this will play out, and I think the best result is that the Drillers will get a new home at about 2nd and Elgin on current city property built with a combination of city revenue bonds paid with lease payments, naming rights and a TIFF on the new downtown Wal-Mart. Call them the Blue Dome Drillers.

I don't think the city owns that much property in that neighborhood, do they?  A baseball stadium won't fit on the site of the Hartford Building ;-) (and by the way, wasn't the ability to SELL that "very valuable" piece of property one of the benefits of moving City Hall?)

And speaking of infrastructure problems, building a baseball stadium at 2nd and Elgin blocks the streets connecting downtown to I-244 East.

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by Oil Capital

quote:Originally posted by swake

My best guess on how this will play out, and I think the best result is that the Drillers will get a new home at about 2nd and Elgin on current city property built with a combination of city revenue bonds paid with lease payments, naming rights and a TIFF on the new downtown Wal-Mart. Call them the Blue Dome Drillers.

I don't think the city owns that much property in that neighborhood, do they?  A baseball stadium won't fit on the site of the Hartford Building ;-) (and by the way, wasn't the ability to SELL that "very valuable" piece of property one of the benefits of moving City Hall?)

And speaking of infrastructure problems, building a baseball stadium at 2nd and Elgin blocks the streets connecting downtown to I-244 East.

I do think they own enough land, but even if not TDA owns more land around in that part of downtown. It may just take some swapping of parcels. If there's one thing that part of downtown has an abundance of it's empty lots.

The site will mean closing off 2nd.

The long term impact of a baseball stadium will far eclipse the short live one time budget bump from selling the Hartford building.

Overall doable and makes sense.

[Conan71]

Personally, I don't think anyone could go wrong if they have the opportunity to buy real estate east of Detroit between the tracks & 11th St.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by Vision 2025

Are you aware that Crowe said the low water dam is being built slightly upstream of the creek that is the southern boundary of this land because of the pollution it would put into the lake? So now it is bounded by both a polluted waterway and smoke stacks of the power plant. There is a prevailing South wind all summer long that will drift towards the stadium. [/quote]

Actually there are two power plants to the south of the identified site along the river but these have no odor issues associated with them as they are power generation facilities, not refineries.  The "smoke" you see is primarily steam from the cooling towers and the boiler combustion stacks and natural gas burns pretty clean.  PSO's plant, appears to be a very clean facility and a good neighbor...they have bordered nice housing for 20+ years.

In my opinion, water pollution is not "the" issue with Polecat Creek but not long ago it was a very troubled stream.  I don't recall using that term, unless you call dirt pollution... I call it silt. I believe you are confusing me with someone else?  

Silt loading and a large inventoried wetland just to the north of the mouth of it is the problem with having a dam downstream of Polecat Creek (but that wetland/greenbelt would likely make a good buffer between the two uses).  Yes, Polecat Creek is a receiving this stream for a waste water discharge load and that was taken into account by INCOG's water quality modeling (Kellyville's lagoons, then Sapulpa's new state of the art plant which is located just East of the Turner Turnpike) but Sapulpa also has reserved discharge rights into the Arkansas below this location and there are four (5) other active permitted discharges in the river reach below the identified dam site (PSO, Jenks WWTP, Glenpool WWTP - relocated from a trib. of Polecat, and Cogentrix (sp), Kimberly Clark, and don't forget 2 active sand operations), between the mouth of Polecat and about 135th S.  

In addition to these enviromental factors a key reason to be upstream of Polecat Creek, is one of lake hydraulics and getting the proposed lake to reach upstream as far as practical into Tulsa.  The rendering shown has the dam lined up pretty close to where I believe it likely needs to be which upcoming river engineering work will confirm.  

Oh and from a conversation with the River District developers they are very much in favor of a water-taxi landing to serve the area!

Hope that helps,

Kirby Crowe, Vision 2025 Program Director


[/quote]

Good answer. Thank you. It wouldn't bother me if they put the Drillers there.

Swake, there will be lots of drainage and roads within the development won't there? And is the lake itself funded by the developers? Or does the city pick up the tab?

How will they run a water taxi on the downstream side of the lake where the development is? Won't that be outside of the living river area and thus too shallow and fluctuating?

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

quote:Originally posted by Vision 2025

Are you aware that Crowe said the low water dam is being built slightly upstream of the creek that is the southern boundary of this land because of the pollution it would put into the lake? So now it is bounded by both a polluted waterway and smoke stacks of the power plant. There is a prevailing South wind all summer long that will drift towards the stadium.

Actually there are two power plants to the south of the identified site along the river but these have no odor issues associated with them as they are power generation facilities, not refineries.  The "smoke" you see is primarily steam from the cooling towers and the boiler combustion stacks and natural gas burns pretty clean.  PSO's plant, appears to be a very clean facility and a good neighbor...they have bordered nice housing for 20+ years.

In my opinion, water pollution is not "the" issue with Polecat Creek but not long ago it was a very troubled stream.  I don't recall using that term, unless you call dirt pollution... I call it silt. I believe you are confusing me with someone else?  

Silt loading and a large inventoried wetland just to the north of the mouth of it is the problem with having a dam downstream of Polecat Creek (but that wetland/greenbelt would likely make a good buffer between the two uses).  Yes, Polecat Creek is a receiving this stream for a waste water discharge load and that was taken into account by INCOG's water quality modeling (Kellyville's lagoons, then Sapulpa's new state of the art plant which is located just East of the Turner Turnpike) but Sapulpa also has reserved discharge rights into the Arkansas below this location and there are four (5) other active permitted discharges in the river reach below the identified dam site (PSO, Jenks WWTP, Glenpool WWTP - relocated from a trib. of Polecat, and Cogentrix (sp), Kimberly Clark, and don't forget 2 active sand operations), between the mouth of Polecat and about 135th S.  

In addition to these enviromental factors a key reason to be upstream of Polecat Creek, is one of lake hydraulics and getting the proposed lake to reach upstream as far as practical into Tulsa.  The rendering shown has the dam lined up pretty close to where I believe it likely needs to be which upcoming river engineering work will confirm.  

Oh and from a conversation with the River District developers they are very much in favor of a water-taxi landing to serve the area!

Hope that helps,

Kirby Crowe, Vision 2025 Program Director


[/quote]

Good answer. Thank you. It wouldn't bother me if they put the Drillers there.

Swake, there will be lots of drainage and roads within the development won't there? And is the lake itself funded by the developers? Or does the city pick up the tab?

How will they run a water taxi on the downstream side of the lake where the development is? Won't that be outside of the living river area and thus too shallow and fluctuating?
[/quote]

Jenks isn't paying for any of the project, as for drainage, Polecat drains most of Jenks (and Sapulpa for that matter) and it runs right through the property and the property is right next to the river. Only the north half of the property will be on the section of the river with a dam, so I would say that's as far as water taxis could go south. But, they could hit the north half and link that with the Aquarium, Riverwalk, Riverparks and Creek Casino.

[waterboy]

Then honestly, what's all the fuss? We could have used a development like this along the river in Tulsa with the Drillers as a lever but we didn't show enough interest. If they want this instead of downtown then we'll find another lever. But if its just a leverage ploy by Drillers then bad show.