Turnpike/interstate question

[bugo]

quote:Originally posted by rwarn17588

sauerkraut wrote:

All the major highways around Tulsa are toll roads.

<end clip>

U.S. 75 isn't a major road? U.S. 169 north of town isn't a major road?

With all those lanes, they sure as hell look like major roads to me.

75 and 169 north of town dwindle into two-laners at the Kansas line and Oologah respectively, and neither is the main route to any major cities.  169 ends at the Creek/Memorial interchange, and 75 south turns into a 2 lane south of I-40.  The 75 roadway does "turn into" the Indian Nation Turnpike...another toll road.

[bugo]

quote:Originally posted by sauerkraut

Originally posted by rwarn17588
I don't think Missouri has any toll roads.

They currently do not, but there are plans to build a toll road in southwest MO that connects to Arkansas.  This will be the first toll road in Arkansas as well.

[cannon_fodder]

quote:Originally posted by sauerkraut

Gasoline taxes are also use-taxes. People who buy gasoline use the roads. I do not like toll roads. The toll paying is a hassle, and as I see it if other states can have free interstate highways why can't Oklahoma? Much of the money for the interstate systems comes from the fed gov't anyhoo. People who have to drive toll roads every day spend alot of money on them, if you drive $2.00 worth of toll road mileage one way, that's $4.00 a day round trip, 5 days a week, 4 weeks in a month, times 12 months. That's quite a bundle. You do the math, my brain is on the fritz today... That's quite a chunk of green. Plus that driver still has to pay gas taxes and vehicle license fees. Maybe I'm just old fashioned, I just do-not like toll roads and I'm glad we have no toll roads in central Ohio. or so it seems to me, thanx.[B)]

Well this argument is going in circles, but lets do it one more time...

1) Gas taxes charge for use of gas... not roads. Boats, lawn mowers, and other vehicles pay this tax.  Also, gas use of vehicles is not necessarily proportional to road use.  It is strong indication, but not indicative.

Not to mention it pays for a road, not necessarily the road you are using.  For instance, the Indian Nation turnpike gets less traffic than 169 in Tulsa... so Tulsan's gas tax money would go to subsidize that road moreso than it is now.  Currently, it is easy to account for the revenue/expense of a given road and insure its users pay the costs.  A use tax is the most efficient tax in economics.

2) Paying the toll is no hassle at all thanks to the Pikepass system, why anyone that lives in the state would not have one is beyond me.

3) Oklahoma can have free interstates if it so chooses.  The result of which would mean the plethora of other 4 lane Toll Roads you listed would probably not exist.  The money is diverted from the federal government to reward Oklahoma for taking the initiative in forming a toll roads before the introduction of the EIS back in the day.  So Oklahoma comes out ahead.

4) The toll roads have now been in place for 50 years.  Meaning nearly everyone who lives along them and has a job requiring their utilization did so with full knowledge.
- - -

The system is not perfect.  But Oklahoma is not Ohio.  We do not have the population, the density, nor the political representation warranting extra funds to support major highway expansion.  Without doing it largely by ourselves, Oklahoma would have exactly 2 four lane roads in the state.

[sauerkraut]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

quote:Originally posted by sauerkraut

Gasoline taxes are also use-taxes. People who buy gasoline use the roads. I do not like toll roads. The toll paying is a hassle, and as I see it if other states can have free interstate highways why can't Oklahoma? Much of the money for the interstate systems comes from the fed gov't anyhoo. People who have to drive toll roads every day spend alot of money on them, if you drive $2.00 worth of toll road mileage one way, that's $4.00 a day round trip, 5 days a week, 4 weeks in a month, times 12 months. That's quite a bundle. You do the math, my brain is on the fritz today... That's quite a chunk of green. Plus that driver still has to pay gas taxes and vehicle license fees. Maybe I'm just old fashioned, I just do-not like toll roads and I'm glad we have no toll roads in central Ohio. or so it seems to me, thanx.[B)]

Well this argument is going in circles, but lets do it one more time...

1) Gas taxes charge for use of gas... not roads. Boats, lawn mowers, and other vehicles pay this tax.  Also, gas use of vehicles is not necessarily proportional to road use.  It is strong indication, but not indicative.

Not to mention it pays for a road, not necessarily the road you are using.  For instance, the Indian Nation turnpike gets less traffic than 169 in Tulsa... so Tulsan's gas tax money would go to subsidize that road moreso than it is now.  Currently, it is easy to account for the revenue/expense of a given road and insure its users pay the costs.  A use tax is the most efficient tax in economics.

2) Paying the toll is no hassle at all thanks to the Pikepass system, why anyone that lives in the state would not have one is beyond me.

3) Oklahoma can have free interstates if it so chooses.  The result of which would mean the plethora of other 4 lane Toll Roads you listed would probably not exist.  The money is diverted from the federal government to reward Oklahoma for taking the initiative in forming a toll roads before the introduction of the EIS back in the day.  So Oklahoma comes out ahead.

4) The toll roads have now been in place for 50 years.  Meaning nearly everyone who lives along them and has a job requiring their utilization did so with full knowledge.
- - -

The system is not perfect.  But Oklahoma is not Ohio.  We do not have the population, the density, nor the political representation warranting extra funds to support major highway expansion.  Without doing it largely by ourselves, Oklahoma would have exactly 2 four lane roads in the state.

In Ohio we hiked our gasoline tax about two years ago for "Roads & Bridges" (repair & upkeep)- Our fuel taxes are used for our roads, I just assumed Oklahoma's fuel taxes also went for roads to.-guess not- As for the comment that toll roads have been around for 50 years in Oklahoma and everyone who has job and needs to utilize toll roads knew it- In most cases they offten promise to remove the tolls and make the roads free after a certain amount of time has passed, or the roads get paid off. I'd bet the people 50 years ago never thought the tolls would become a perm. thing. However, I don't know how it's done in Oklahoma- I know that in most states toll roads become free roads when they are paid off. (I-30 in Texas is an example of a toll road going free). I for one do not like toll roads. But, that's just me.[B)]

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by sauerkraut

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

quote:Originally posted by sauerkraut

Gasoline taxes are also use-taxes. People who buy gasoline use the roads. I do not like toll roads. The toll paying is a hassle, and as I see it if other states can have free interstate highways why can't Oklahoma? Much of the money for the interstate systems comes from the fed gov't anyhoo. People who have to drive toll roads every day spend alot of money on them, if you drive $2.00 worth of toll road mileage one way, that's $4.00 a day round trip, 5 days a week, 4 weeks in a month, times 12 months. That's quite a bundle. You do the math, my brain is on the fritz today... That's quite a chunk of green. Plus that driver still has to pay gas taxes and vehicle license fees. Maybe I'm just old fashioned, I just do-not like toll roads and I'm glad we have no toll roads in central Ohio. or so it seems to me, thanx.[B)]

Well this argument is going in circles, but lets do it one more time...

1) Gas taxes charge for use of gas... not roads. Boats, lawn mowers, and other vehicles pay this tax.  Also, gas use of vehicles is not necessarily proportional to road use.  It is strong indication, but not indicative.

Not to mention it pays for a road, not necessarily the road you are using.  For instance, the Indian Nation turnpike gets less traffic than 169 in Tulsa... so Tulsan's gas tax money would go to subsidize that road moreso than it is now.  Currently, it is easy to account for the revenue/expense of a given road and insure its users pay the costs.  A use tax is the most efficient tax in economics.

2) Paying the toll is no hassle at all thanks to the Pikepass system, why anyone that lives in the state would not have one is beyond me.

3) Oklahoma can have free interstates if it so chooses.  The result of which would mean the plethora of other 4 lane Toll Roads you listed would probably not exist.  The money is diverted from the federal government to reward Oklahoma for taking the initiative in forming a toll roads before the introduction of the EIS back in the day.  So Oklahoma comes out ahead.

4) The toll roads have now been in place for 50 years.  Meaning nearly everyone who lives along them and has a job requiring their utilization did so with full knowledge.
- - -

The system is not perfect.  But Oklahoma is not Ohio.  We do not have the population, the density, nor the political representation warranting extra funds to support major highway expansion.  Without doing it largely by ourselves, Oklahoma would have exactly 2 four lane roads in the state.

In Ohio we hiked our gasoline tax about two years ago for "Roads & Bridges" (repair & upkeep)- Our fuel taxes are used for our roads, I just assumed Oklahoma's fuel taxes also went for roads to.-guess not- As for the comment that toll roads have been around for 50 years in Oklahoma and everyone who has job and needs to utilize toll roads knew it- In most cases they offten promise to remove the tolls and make the roads free after a certain amount of time has passed, or the roads get paid off. I'd bet the people 50 years ago never thought the tolls would become a perm. thing. However, I don't know how it's done in Oklahoma- I know that in most states toll roads become free roads when they are paid off. (I-30 in Texas is an example of a toll road going free). I for one do not like toll roads. But, that's just me.[B)]

50 years ago, when the Turner Turnpike was started, the politicians promised that the turnpike would be a free road once it was paid off.

Within a year of the formation of the Oklahoma Turdpike Authority, the rules of the authority were changed to allow cross-pledging of the turnpike tolls to any FUTURE turnpikes.

This resulted in a Turnpike building binge that we have suffered with ever since.  For instance, since it really doesn't GO anywhere, the Indian Nations Turnpike should NEVER have been built.  Why on earth would anyone feel the need to connect Henryetta to McAlester to Bugtussle, and then connect to PARIS, TEXAS??

There was a long, scholarly article "celebrating" 50 years of the Turner Turnpike, published in the Lorton's Worldon the 50th anniversary of the Turnpike.

In the article, the former Mayor of Chandler during the Turner Turnpike construction era was interviewed, as he was very young man when the Turnpike plans were first announced.  

He was quoted as saying he "regreted" that he told citizens groups that the Turnpike would someday be a free road.

The OTA is a honey pot for connected politicos and their crony construction companies and associated crony sub-contractors.

[sauerkraut]

I think you nailed it- it's a Honey Pot for the OTA, a big agency that does not want to go out of business. OTA workers don't want to lose their jobs. Once they start a toll road they don't want to end the tolls. The always find excuses to keep the road a toll road. The tolls keep going up to.

[Transport_Oklahoma]

The trend nationwide is for more NEW roads to be toll.  Texas is building or planning to build them all over the place.

The national highway trust fund will go negative as early as next year because the tax has not been adjusted for inflation.

As fuel becomes more expensive, people MAY begin to buy more fuel efficient cars putting even more downward pressure on fuel tax revenue.

[cannon_fodder]

Since taxes are on a percentage basis... you really do not need to adjust them for inflation.

[sgrizzle]

No-brainer for me... raise diesel taxes in Oklahoma.

[sauerkraut]

That's an idea, raise Diesel taxes and let the truckers with their big rigs pay for the roads.[]

[sgrizzle]

quote:Originally posted by sauerkraut

That's an idea, raise Diesel taxes and let the truckers with their big rigs pay for the roads.[]

Diesel tax is lower than unleaded in Oklahoma. Dumb.

[joiei]

The result of that would be the goods they carry will end up costing you more due to increased costs of delivery.  So the tax increase you propose will come out of your pocketbook.

[sauerkraut]

quote:Originally posted by joiei

The result of that would be the goods they carry will end up costing you more due to increased costs of delivery.  So the tax increase you propose will come out of your pocketbook.

Not if we get Mexican truckers up here. The U.S. drivers would have to eat the increase or lose business. The trucking industry is very cut throat. Shippers will use the cheapest trucking line they can find. Mexico truckers can fill up in Mexico with cheap dirty fuel and drive loads up to Oklahoma, pushing American truckers aside.

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Since taxes are on a percentage basis... you really do not need to adjust them for inflation.

Fuel taxes are generally figured on a cents per gallon basis so fuel taxes are NOT adjusted for inflation and actually with increases in the fuel efficency of cars the amount of tax per mile driven is declining.

[sauerkraut]

quote:Originally posted by swake

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Since taxes are on a percentage basis... you really do not need to adjust them for inflation.

Fuel taxes are generally figured on a cents per gallon basis so fuel taxes are NOT adjusted for inflation and actually with increases in the fuel efficency of cars the amount of tax per mile driven is declining.

Yes- but some states have a gas tax per gallon of fuel and a sales tax on top of that. Indiana is one of those states. Other states only have a cents per gallon tax.