Silting of Waterways

[spoonbill]

I have a question I've always wanted to ask.  Silt fencing is required in Tulsa (and most communities) during construction to prevent soil, sand, and silt from entering the storm sewer system and affecting rivers and streams.  

I agree that it is in the best interest of the environment, city, and the developer to keep soil in place.

The Department of Environmental Quality has become very strict on enforcement of silt fencing code reciently.

My question is:  Does the DEQ fine the City of Tulsa for applying 735 TONS of sand (2007 quantity) to the roads and highways each winter?  

Most of this goes right down the old sewer pipe.

I still have piles of it around the entry to my neighborhood.

I may be mistaken, but wouldn't it be better for the environment to use the liquid solutions used in the northern states?  

Perhaps one of the more enviro-minded folks can help me out?

[waterboy]

I'm guessing that the sand they put on the streets originally came from the Arkansas River and thus is returned naturally. Zero sum gain. The sand may actually scour (clean out) the storm sewers.

Silt is much finer. The salt they use is another story.

[spoonbill]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

I'm guessing that the sand they put on the streets originally came from the Arkansas River and thus is returned naturally. Zero sum gain. The sand may actually scour (clean out) the storm sewers.

Silt is much finer. The salt they use is another story.

Perhaps, but after being ground by tires and Biker Fox wheelies it becomes very fine.  As I recall the year before last we had to import our mixture for some reason?

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by spoonbill

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

I'm guessing that the sand they put on the streets originally came from the Arkansas River and thus is returned naturally. Zero sum gain. The sand may actually scour (clean out) the storm sewers.

Silt is much finer. The salt they use is another story.

Perhaps, but after being ground by tires and Biker Fox wheelies it becomes very fine.  As I recall the year before last we had to import our mixture for some reason?

Yeah, I remember reading something about that. There are only two sand mining ops left on the river now and the construction boom was using up all the sand for cement if I remember right. In fact I think it was being sent out of the area. The type sand they use is coarse and doesn't break up that well. The river would accomodate it.

I hate them using salt though.

[inteller]

the liquid **** they use up north will DESTROY your car.

[spoonbill]

quote:Originally posted by inteller

the liquid **** they use up north will DESTROY your car.

Lived in St. Louis for 6 years and never had a problem with it, however the sand blasting my car gets on the hwy each year has taken a toll.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by spoonbill

quote:Originally posted by inteller

the liquid **** they use up north will DESTROY your car.

Lived in St. Louis for 6 years and never had a problem with it, however the sand blasting my car gets on the hwy each year has taken a toll.

I have a 92 Corolla from Minneappolis that is eaten up with rust in spite of the fact it was factory undercoated and low mileage. Its the constant exposure that is the problem. Once the mixture goes down it stays on the roads all winter.

[spoonbill]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

quote:Originally posted by spoonbill

quote:Originally posted by inteller

the liquid **** they use up north will DESTROY your car.

Lived in St. Louis for 6 years and never had a problem with it, however the sand blasting my car gets on the hwy each year has taken a toll.

I have a 92 Corolla from Minneappolis that is eaten up with rust in spite of the fact it was factory undercoated and low mileage. Its the constant exposure that is the problem. Once the mixture goes down it stays on the roads all winter.

Yeah I guess I can see that in Minneappolis.  That was the first place I ever drove over a lake!  Fingernails firmly embedid in the armrests of a suburban!

But, I think application in Oklahoma where it is only down for 2 or three weeks at the most would be very economical and far more effective.

[cannon_fodder]

Hi, I hail from the great white north (Iowa) so let me share some insights.

The deicing solution works amazingly well and comes in two basic varieties.  First are salt solutions which by absorbing water molecules lower the melting point of H20 they come in contact with and thus "melts" the ice.  However, salt being sprayed from a truck is very hard on ones car, as well as the roads themselves (salt is naturally not only hard on your car, but rusts bridges, sewers, and even rebar inside the road bed weakening them and allowing cracks).  Granulated salt is slower acting and cheaper, but just as hazardous.

Not to mention the environmental impact of excess salt entering waterways, yards (via plows), wastewater plants (kills some bacteria), and industrial sites (cooling with higher saline content from the river after a runoff acts differently for operations like PSO).

The second variety of spray is a chemical deicer like those used on airplanes.  The exacting details of what it is escapes me but the primary inhibitor is cost.  I've never really heard about car damage or environmental impact, always that it is not practical to use it on a road scale.   Another disadvantage is it is a one use product... salt will remain and keep ice from reforming until it is washed away.  The deicer evaporates (some kind of ethyl something or other I think).

And then there is sand.  Ahh sand.  Cheap, available, and easy to clean up.  Up North they clean up the remaining piles in the spring (parking lots, street sweepers off of roads, etc.) and often dump it into rivers or old query's.  However, excess salt content in the sand (or in excess snow to be trucked away in bigger cities) prevents such disposal... the salt is more hazardous (and expensive) than the sand for sure.

Man I love pulling the e-brake and doing "James Bond" corners on a snow packed road . . . as my Okie passengers grab the "oh snow" handles in fear. [}:)]