Somebody from INCOG talks about passenger rail on

[pfox]

KRMG

Who was that guy? []

[brunoflipper]

quote:Originally posted by pfox

KRMG

Who was that guy? []

that guy? he, is an idiot...

[pfox]

I concur.

[RecycleMichael]

All you transportation specialist want me to travel with other folks. I am kinda afraid of other people.

"I have found out that there ain't no surer way to find out whether you like people or hate them than to travel with them."

Mark Twain

[pfox]

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

All you transportation specialist want me to travel with other folks. I am kinda afraid of other people.

"I have found out that there ain't no surer way to find out whether you like people or hate them than to travel with them."

Mark Twain

I never took you for a sociophobe Michael. Hmmm...interesting.

Remember...safety in numbers.  Peoples are good.

Seriously, if you are not accustomed to riding with folks you don't know, it can be disconcerting....for about 5 minutes.  Then you start looking around, listening to conversations, reading, or just look out the window, worrying about pulling the cord for your stop...  and pretty soon, you've forgotten what you are nervous about.

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by pfox

quote:Originally posted by pfox

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

All you transportation specialist want me to travel with other folks. I am kinda afraid of other people.

"I have found out that there ain't no surer way to find out whether you like people or hate them than to travel with them."

Mark Twain

I never took you for a sociophobe Michael. Hmmm...interesting.

Remember...safety in numbers.  Peoples are good.

Seriously, if you are not accustomed to riding with folks you don't know, it can be disconcerting....for about 5 minutes.  Then you start looking around, listening to conversations, reading, or just look out the window, worrying about pulling the cord for your stop...  and pretty soon, you've forgotten what you were nervous about.

I read your quote in the rail article in the Jenks newspaper about 7,000 houses new planned in the 71st and Union area.

Just plain wow.

Having a rail line serve that area, downtown Jenks and the River District would be so easy and would make the region different than any other in the Tulsa area. The rail is there, it's nearly unused and apparently in at least decent condition. It has to be done and shouldn't cost too much.

[Ibanez]

Get me a line from Bixby to downtown and I will be on it every day!!!

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by wavoka

Get me a line from Bixby to downtown and I will be on it every day!!!

The existing line gets as close as about 141st and Yale at Kimberly Clark.

[TheArtist]

The kind of development we are seeing with the expanded riverwalk and the possible River District are the kinds of developments that can make some sort of rail more feasible. Sprawling neighborhoods even of 7000 homes is just a side note. What makes rail more likely to work is having dense urban growth with midrise living.

What are you more likely to do? Drive from within your neighborhood, park at a spot near the rail station, walk to the station, stand there and wait, ride the rail into downtown, get off at the downtown station, walk to your place of work wherever it may be downtown... Imagine doing that on a cold windy or rainy day.

OR

Get in your car, drive to work, and park nearer to work. Why bother with the first scenario? Not that some wont do it, just not nearly as likely.  

Unless the rail station is nearby within a few blocks or so, its not worth the hassle of driving to the station etc. Thus the need for more dense urban development along the line and near any stations.

It is wise to have a plan in place for eventual rail. Even if it is not to be executed immediately because then developers can know where it will be good to put midrise and more urban development and cities can zone for that type of development to go in near the stations versus some type of development that will hinder the ability to have a feasible rail line with good ridership.  You dont want a strip shopping mall with a Wal-Mart or a sprawling suburban neighborhood go in right next to the few spots where any station can go, versus having midrise and higher density living and other developments there instead.

Plan ahead so wise development can happen or already have been started.

[Renaissance]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist



What are you more likely to do? Drive from within your neighborhood, park at a spot near the rail station, walk to the station, stand there and wait, ride the rail into downtown, get off at the downtown station, walk to your place of work wherever it may be downtown... Imagine doing that on a cold windy or rainy day.

OR

Get in your car, drive to work, and park nearer to work. Why bother with the first scenario? Not that some wont do it, just not nearly as likely.  

Despite speculation to the contrary, thousands of people in Dallas, Atlanta, Denver, and other non-dense cities nevertheless have taken great advantage of park-and-ride commuter rail.  There will always be car commuters, but there is a lot of pent-up demand for *dependable* public transportation for commuters.  With rail, as opposed to bus, dependability (and comfort) goes way up, and thus ridership as well.

My point is that rail doesn't just belong in packed cities.

[inteller]

quote:Originally posted by wavoka

Get me a line from Bixby to downtown and I will be on it every day!!!

agreed.

that line alone would relieve the CRUSH of traffic on memorial going to 169 every weekday morning and evening.

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by Floyd

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist



What are you more likely to do? Drive from within your neighborhood, park at a spot near the rail station, walk to the station, stand there and wait, ride the rail into downtown, get off at the downtown station, walk to your place of work wherever it may be downtown... Imagine doing that on a cold windy or rainy day.

OR

Get in your car, drive to work, and park nearer to work. Why bother with the first scenario? Not that some wont do it, just not nearly as likely.  

Despite speculation to the contrary, thousands of people in Dallas, Atlanta, Denver, and other non-dense cities nevertheless have taken great advantage of park-and-ride commuter rail.  There will always be car commuters, but there is a lot of pent-up demand for *dependable* public transportation for commuters.  With rail, as opposed to bus, dependability (and comfort) goes way up, and thus ridership as well.

My point is that rail doesn't just belong in packed cities.

OMG Compared to Tulsa those cities ARE "packed" cities lol. Especially near where the rail lines are. People from Dallas come to Tulsa and comment on how sparse and spread out things are here. I didnt mean to suggest we had to have NY and HongKong type densities, I would be thrilled if Tulsa could muster areas that have half the density that the areas around the stations in Dallas have.  

I am not saying we wouldnt have riders, just worried that we wouldnt have enough to make it economically feasible and that we arent thinking ahead to make sure some areas are readily available to have Dallas type densities in areas around where stations can go. And also to be thinking about where to have parking garages for those who will drive to the station.

For instance it would have been nice if BA had considered where it wanted to place its new events center downtown. If you are going to build a parking garage why not have things thought out so that it could play double duty, commuters during the day, events at night. They are also wanting to have some midrise apartments in and near their downtown. The placement of all those things with a potential rail station would be wise to consider imo, even well before you actually build the station. Would save money and hassle in the long run. Plus purchasing property for those stations and the needed parking now in the Tulsa area would be wise before the property gets used for something else and becomes even more expensive and or difficult to come by.

[pfox]

quote:Originally posted by swake

quote:Originally posted by pfox

quote:Originally posted by pfox

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

All you transportation specialist want me to travel with other folks. I am kinda afraid of other people.

"I have found out that there ain't no surer way to find out whether you like people or hate them than to travel with them."

Mark Twain

I never took you for a sociophobe Michael. Hmmm...interesting.

Remember...safety in numbers.  Peoples are good.

Seriously, if you are not accustomed to riding with folks you don't know, it can be disconcerting....for about 5 minutes.  Then you start looking around, listening to conversations, reading, or just look out the window, worrying about pulling the cord for your stop...  and pretty soon, you've forgotten what you were nervous about.

I read your quote in the rail article in the Jenks newspaper about 7,000 houses new planned in the 71st and Union area.

Just plain wow.

Having a rail line serve that area, downtown Jenks and the River District would be so easy and would make the region different than any other in the Tulsa area. The rail is there, it's nearly unused and apparently in at least decent condition. It has to be done and shouldn't cost too much.

to clarify...that was not the 71st and Union area...it is the "South Tulsa County" area: Jenks/Bixby/Glenpool, where they all intersect.

more later...

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by pfox

quote:Originally posted by swake

quote:Originally posted by pfox

quote:Originally posted by pfox

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

All you transportation specialist want me to travel with other folks. I am kinda afraid of other people.

"I have found out that there ain't no surer way to find out whether you like people or hate them than to travel with them."

Mark Twain

I never took you for a sociophobe Michael. Hmmm...interesting.

Remember...safety in numbers.  Peoples are good.

Seriously, if you are not accustomed to riding with folks you don't know, it can be disconcerting....for about 5 minutes.  Then you start looking around, listening to conversations, reading, or just look out the window, worrying about pulling the cord for your stop...  and pretty soon, you've forgotten what you were nervous about.

I read your quote in the rail article in the Jenks newspaper about 7,000 houses new planned in the 71st and Union area.

Just plain wow.

Having a rail line serve that area, downtown Jenks and the River District would be so easy and would make the region different than any other in the Tulsa area. The rail is there, it's nearly unused and apparently in at least decent condition. It has to be done and shouldn't cost too much.

to clarify...that was not the 71st and Union area...it is the "South Tulsa County" area: Jenks/Bixby/Glenpool, where they all intersect.

more later...

That is too bad, it would be much better for the region to have what is basically "infill" in west Tulsa rather than 7,000 new houses centered at 131st and Yale.

131st and Yale is better than 101st St N and 145th E Ave in Owasso or 71st St and 225th E Ave in Broken Arrow, I guess.

[Renaissance]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

quote:Originally posted by Floyd

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist



What are you more likely to do? Drive from within your neighborhood, park at a spot near the rail station, walk to the station, stand there and wait, ride the rail into downtown, get off at the downtown station, walk to your place of work wherever it may be downtown... Imagine doing that on a cold windy or rainy day.

OR

Get in your car, drive to work, and park nearer to work. Why bother with the first scenario? Not that some wont do it, just not nearly as likely.  

Despite speculation to the contrary, thousands of people in Dallas, Atlanta, Denver, and other non-dense cities nevertheless have taken great advantage of park-and-ride commuter rail.  There will always be car commuters, but there is a lot of pent-up demand for *dependable* public transportation for commuters.  With rail, as opposed to bus, dependability (and comfort) goes way up, and thus ridership as well.

My point is that rail doesn't just belong in packed cities.

OMG Compared to Tulsa those cities ARE "packed" cities lol. Especially near where the rail lines are. People from Dallas come to Tulsa and comment on how sparse and spread out things are here. I didnt mean to suggest we had to have NY and HongKong type densities, I would be thrilled if Tulsa could muster areas that have half the density that the areas around the stations in Dallas have.  

I am not saying we wouldnt have riders, just worried that we wouldnt have enough to make it economically feasible and that we arent thinking ahead to make sure some areas are readily available to have Dallas type densities in areas around where stations can go. And also to be thinking about where to have parking garages for those who will drive to the station.

For instance it would have been nice if BA had considered where it wanted to place its new events center downtown. If you are going to build a parking garage why not have things thought out so that it could play double duty, commuters during the day, events at night. They are also wanting to have some midrise apartments in and near their downtown. The placement of all those things with a potential rail station would be wise to consider imo, even well before you actually build the station. Would save money and hassle in the long run. Plus purchasing property for those stations and the needed parking now in the Tulsa area would be wise before the property gets used for something else and becomes even more expensive and or difficult to come by.

You are vastly overestimating the amount of density around the DART stations in Dallas.  They are literally surrounded by huge parking lots for the commuters to park and ride.  Believe me, I live in Dallas.  

Here is White Rock Station on the DART Blue line.  Note the large parking lot, rows of single family houses in the neighboring subdivision, and park land.  In other words, the complete lack of urban density.
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&time=&date=&ttype=&q=white+rock+rail+station,+dallas,+tx&sll=32.855171,-96.734673&sspn=0.003375,0.004989&ie=UTF8&ll=32.857086,-96.734501&spn=0.00675,0.009978&t=h&z=17&om=1

Again, nearby density is in no way a prerequisite for rail.