NPR on HB1804

[dggriffi]

that is true of the non working poor but not of the working poor.  Especially if they cannot receive assistance.

[cannon_fodder]

As Wevus pointed out, many do pay the taxes.  Most employers do so to avoid penalties if busted and pay under "assume SS #'s" and claim the illegal presented the # (hiring illegal is not nearly as severe as tax avoidance).  Still other's do file tax returns and the like (in some instances they are required to in the State to acquire benefits).

I'm afraid I do not have a good link to illustrate this point and no REAL knowledge (my companies are all on the up and up).  But from hat I have read such is the case - though I am open to correction and am sure plenty do NOT pay SS and Income taxes (most would probably get a "refund" from income non-payment anyway).

[we vs us]

quote:Originally posted by dggriffi

that is true of the non working poor but not of the working poor.  Especially if they cannot receive assistance.

I think we're on the same page here.  It's true that there's a widening gap between who and what public assistance will cover, and actual real life poverty, but for all intents and purposes any variable taxes out there (I'm specifically thinking about income taxes) aren't applicable to the working poor either.  Under a certain income level, no tax is owed at all.  

But again, I agree with you on what I think your larger point is, and that's that the working poor -- of which there are more and more -- are having a harder and harder time making it.

[TeeDub]

It was my understanding that most illegals get paid cash....   Thereby forcing the employer to treat them (on the books) as contract labor and not requiring anyone to pay any sort of taxes on the income.   Once the 1099s were printed and disbursed at the end of the year, viola, everyone changes names.   This way, no ILLEGAL workers were harmed by taxes and no taxes are paid.

[cannon_fodder]

You can't just decide who is 1099 and who is not.  If it looks like an employee, acts like an employee, and gets paid like an employee... it's an employee.  Factually, you can 1099 whoever you want - but if/when you get caught you are then required to pay all the back taxes plus penalties and fines.  Not to mention it gives the IRS a reason to look over other things.  In short, listing a large number of people as 1099 in a common industry (roofers, for instance) is a good way to get nailed.

Thus, joe blow day laborer gets paid in cash.  But when Tyson gets busted with 300 illegal workers or some restaurant - they are probably paying full taxes on them.  The mid-sized operations (roofers, yard care) probably go both ways - but at a certain point it is hard to keep money under the table.  And frankly, if you were going to pay no taxes why bother with 1099's, if you're willing to commit fraud and risk getting busted you'd be better sticking with cash off the books.

Considering the 1% OK employment security and FUTA, 10% workman's comp, 8% FICA, compliance costs and other associated crap... it's no wonder it is a tempting proposition.  When I could just give half of the 20% added expense to the employee and we both win.  Until we get caught... and put out of business.

[TeeDub]

The other thing this bill did, was fix that 1099 hole.
HB 1804 will require that, effective July 1, 2008, anyone using an independent contractor must either verify the contractor's employment authorization or withhold state income tax from the contractor's pay.

One recent case of fraudulent 1099s....
http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/article.aspx?articleID=071221_5_E2_spanc55316

[dggriffi]

what is employment authorization?

[TeeDub]

quote:Originally posted by dggriffi

what is employment authorization?

Dunno.   Section 7(A)
A.  Every public employer shall register with and utilize a Status Verification System as described in subparagraphs a or b of paragraph 1 of Section 6 of this act to verify the federal employment authorization status of all new employees.

http://webserver1.lsb.state.ok.us/2007-08bills/HB/HB1804_ENR.RTF

[Conan71]

Unfortunately, the status verification system has been greatly flawed in the past, and I'm not optimistic it will be in much better shape by July 1.  Trying to enhance that system is one of the reasons the stiff employer liability does not go into affect until July.

I do believe the 1099 scams are far more common in construction, landscaping, and farming.  Large plants know better.

[dggriffi]

so its essentially a new regulation on businesses requiring them to enroll with a service to check verification.   Sounds like an unfunded mandate or what some of us call a "Tax"

Thats great as those costs will be handed down to us.  So in summary.

The racists who cover their intent in a shroud of legality will now increase the cost of construction by cutting available labor, increase the cost of all goods due to unfunded mandates, and reduce local demand by reducing the local workforce will save our economy while not increase work frequency among lazy whites.


BRILLIANT!

[waterboy]

Anecdote. My refuse collector (he owns his trucks and the license) just told me this morning that his best worker was forced to return to Mexico even though he was legal. It seems his wife and children were deported and he wasn't going to stay without them. They committed no crime he knew of. He was pretty frustrated as an owner that he has difficulty finding any workers other than the pitiful crews from Standby who don't measure up. Get enough anecdotes, you have a novel.

[we vs us]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

Anecdote. My refuse collector (he owns his trucks and the license) just told me this morning that his best worker was forced to return to Mexico even though he was legal. It seems his wife and children were deported and he wasn't going to stay without them. They committed no crime he knew of. He was pretty frustrated as an owner that he has difficulty finding any workers other than the pitiful crews from Standby who don't measure up. Get enough anecdotes, you have a novel.

I think this is stickiest part of dealing with illegal immigrants. It's the families that blend illegals and legals. Where one member of the family commits the crime, and the rest end up paying as well.

It's awful, because illegal immigration is essentially a "victimless" crime, in that there aren't individuals directly wronged.  The underlying crime isn't larceny, or rape, or assault or murder.  The crime is existing in a certain physical place (in the US), in an unrecognized way.  The only victim is the state.  So it looks especially cruel, then, to inflict punishment on essentially helpless individuals and families on behalf of the state.

It's also looks worse because many of these "criminals" live lives that are in every other way exemplary.  Hard workers, contributors to their communities, builders of strong families, and hugely religious.  And, I might add, absolute believers in the American Way.  

[dggriffi]

we must be good citizens and protect the state.

freedom is oppression.  War is peace.