Section 8 Housing in Tulsa

[buckeye]

Helping people feel like they're part of society rather than on its fringe works much better.

Committing crime in itself suggests profound disinterest in "being a part".  In other words, I'm unconvinced that programs with that goal in mind are worth the trouble to institute and maintain as most recidivists don't share the interest you describe.

...increasing education...

Always a good thing.

...improving the economy [through government means]...

Not so sure about this one - unless you're talking deregulation!  Or at least more effective, less onerous and less wasteful regulation. 

Also, teen pregnancy isn't necessarily criminal, though it's most often undesirable. 

All the same, I must agree that our punishment-based system doesn't appear very effective...

And each of the section 8 houses in my immediate neighborhood has been a perennial crime nexus.

[nathanm]

Committing crime in itself suggests profound disinterest in "being a part".  In other words, I'm unconvinced that programs with that goal in mind are worth the trouble to institute and maintain as most recidivists don't share the interest you describe.
Always a good thing.

Sometimes it does. Sometimes it's desperation. Nevertheless I wasn't talking about adult offenders. I was talking about help for at risk kids and doing what we can to help them to feel like they are a part of society and that society works for them. Helping them have the tools they need to avoid a life of crime is money well spent.

Not so sure about this one - unless you're talking deregulation!  Or at least more effective, less onerous and less wasteful regulation. 

I find it hard to believe you're in favor of further deregulation given how thoroughly the faults of that policy are becoming more and more apparent. Between ye olde financial meltdown, the blowout, and all the other issues being caused by the failure of regulators to use the regulations available to them to prevent these crises. (Funny how it turns out that staffing regulatory agencies with people who don't believe in regulatory agencies keeps them from doing their legal duty..MMS being the most recent shining example of that)

There is such a thing as excessive capitalism. There is also such a thing as excessive regulation. A balance must be struck to prevent companies from leaving their poo all over the commons.

[Conan71]

Which is an utterly ridiculous assertion. Head Start and similar programs, for example, have been shown to have lasting effects in reducing the chance of a former participant choosing to join a gang. Sex education in school has been shown to significantly reduce teen pregnancy rates, when the program is not abstinence only. Generally speaking, increasing education and improving the economy reduces the crime rate. Why shouldn't we, through our elected representatives, fund programs that work towards those ends?

Unfortunately, our punishment-based system doesn't work all that well. Why? Because punishment doesn't work very well in general. Helping people feel like they're part of society rather than on its fringe works much better.

Do you ever cite real stats to support your spoon-fed liberal pap?

[nathanm]

Do you ever cite real stats to support your spoon-fed liberal pap?

Do you ever ask people whose worldview comports more closely with yours to do that? I presume you believe I'm talking out of my donkey, then?

[TheArtist]

Do you ever cite real stats to support your spoon-fed liberal pap?

How bout some direct proof.  If we were to punish you, would you change what you believe? 

[Conan71]

Do you ever ask people whose worldview comports more closely with yours to do that? I presume you believe I'm talking out of my donkey, then?

Absolutely, on all counts 

[Gaspar]

Absolutely, on all counts 

I think we need him now that FOTD is gone.  He serves a purpose.

[waterboy]

We Kemosabe? You got a rabbit's foot in your pocket or something?

[heironymouspasparagus]

"You can't simply pick up people in wholesale lots and disperse them throughout a city to keep poverty pockets and quasi-slums from sprouting up." 

And yet, that is exactly what low income housing efforts have done for decades.  The big city 'projects' were such abysmal failures, the thought was to spread more evenly throughout any given area.

The poorest sections of Tulsa, and the 'center' of public housing in the '60s was the Apache Manor area.  It was pretty bad at times.  Since the '70s, section 8 housing has been spread around much more.

[custosnox]

Proof that the threat of a prison term deters crime: My marraige ended with me being divorced, not a widower.

[nathanm]

Absolutely, on all counts  

Here is a link to but one of the many studies that show that early childhood education has lasting effects: http://www.fpg.unc.edu/~abc/

Conan, you should know by now that when I say "studies have shown" something, there are indeed studies that show what I'm claiming they do.

I don't have a study at hand to cite, but I've seen several that show that educational programs in prison also reduce recidivism rates, which have been increasing since we've gone to the "bore them to death" method of punishment we use now. Yes, there are plenty of folks such things don't get through to, but is that a good reason to abandon those who can be helped?

Edited to add: How about a nice chart, that summarizes the results of several studies on early childhood education?

[Gaspar]

Here is a link to but one of the many studies that show that early childhood education has lasting effects: http://www.fpg.unc.edu/~abc/

Conan, you should know by now that when I say "studies have shown" something, there are indeed studies that show what I'm claiming they do.

I don't have a study at hand to cite, but I've seen several that show that educational programs in prison also reduce recidivism rates, which have been increasing since we've gone to the "bore them to death" method of punishment we use now. Yes, there are plenty of folks such things don't get through to, but is that a good reason to abandon those who can be helped?

I would actually accept it as common sense that educational programs would have more of a positive outcome on an inmate than spending the day as someones B!tch. 

[nathanm]

I would actually accept it as common sense that educational programs would have more of a positive outcome on an inmate than spending the day as someones B!tch. 

Sometimes common sense seems not to be so common.