Chapman Stadium

[perspicuity85]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71
OKC MSA is something like 1.3mm to 1.4mm.  Ford Center will have about 1300 more seats for concerts.  OKC is also in close proximity to Norman and close enough to Stillwater to attract college-age and young adults.  Promoters also count on Tulsans driving to OKC for concerts.

Tulsa and OKC are close enough together that "major" tours will pick OKC over Tulsa and won't usually book the cities back-to-back.  Due to the production costs of some tours like the Police, they aren't going to hit OKC, pretty much just the top 20 markets in North America.

Little Rock pretty much plays second fiddle to Memphis when it comes to bookings for the same reasons Tulsa does and will to OKC.

Garth Brooks could sell out the arena, but who knows about, say, Kenny Chesney.

We can probably get some first and second round NCAA action at some point, but those games aren't a guaranteed sell-out, unless one of the area schools is playing, even then 18,000 is a lofty goal.

Convention business?  What do we have to offer over other cities which attract the big conventions?

Our demographic and population is always going to relegate us to having second tier professional sports.

Hey, I understand if we don't cast a line in the water, we won't catch any fish.  I still think we could have built a 12,000 or 14,000 seat arena, saved money and still gotten about the kind of shows we will wind up with anyhow.

You're not necessarily accurate in predicting that major concert tours will always choose OKC over Tulsa just because of a larger population.  Big-name concerts are granted to cities because of a venue's promotional efforts.  To someone who has played in New York or LA, OKC and Tulsa are very much the same size.  If you compare the 100-mile radius population of OKC and Tulsa, they're not much different.  A big name concert like the Red Hot Chili Peppers will draw an audience of about a 100-mile radius.
You also aren't considering the fact that there are constantly several big-name tours going on throughout the country.  Not everyone can play everywhere.  Most performers only have about a two-day window that they can play in a certain city.  If two major performers are doing a mid-america tour, they can't both play in the same place at the same time.  The reason I used Little Rock as an example before was because their arena recently hosted The Who, as well as other comparable well-known artists.  Even with their close proximity to Memphis, Little Rock is still able to land big-name gigs.

And, as someone already said, for NCAA tourney games, the requirement is around 16,000 seats.  Even a guaranteed sell out 12,000 or 14,000 seat arena wouldn't bring NCAA tourney games to Tulsa.

[cannon_fodder]

The committee for the NCAA tournament stated that their preferred size is 18,000.

They rarely deviate and offer bids to small venues but it DOES happen from time to time (U  of Dayton  arena only seats 14,000). Nothing above a regional has been held in a < 18,000 arena for decades.  Other items also require the 18,000 mark as a thresh hold.  Short of that and it is seen as something that you have to overcome.

[USRufnex]

It is too tempting to not mention other possibilities for a renovated Skelly... []

"Below, an estimated crowd of more than 14,000 watches the Kansas City Wizards take on the Dallas Burn during a Major League Soccer exhibition game at Skelly Stadium on April 5, 2003."
STEPHEN HOLMAN / Tulsa World


Back in 2002, Lamar Hunt came to Tulsa and was quoted as saying Skelly was NOT an option for Major League Soccer... because it was too old and too big.

After TU's game at Univ of Houston's Robertson Stadium last fall, John Klein from the Tulsa World wrote in his blog about how TU should make Skelly Stadium suitable for Major League Soccer... the same way Robertson Stadium was refurbished and was able to accomodate MLS's Houston Dynamo.  



I wonder if TU has put some thought into this; after all, reduction of capacity, installation of new seats, press box with luxury suites would all make the stadium more suitable to MLS... by the time renovations are complete, the field turf will be over 8 years old (installed in 2000)... natural grass?

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by perspicuity85

quote:Originally posted by Conan71
OKC MSA is something like 1.3mm to 1.4mm.  Ford Center will have about 1300 more seats for concerts.  OKC is also in close proximity to Norman and close enough to Stillwater to attract college-age and young adults.  Promoters also count on Tulsans driving to OKC for concerts.

Tulsa and OKC are close enough together that "major" tours will pick OKC over Tulsa and won't usually book the cities back-to-back.  Due to the production costs of some tours like the Police, they aren't going to hit OKC, pretty much just the top 20 markets in North America.

Little Rock pretty much plays second fiddle to Memphis when it comes to bookings for the same reasons Tulsa does and will to OKC.

Garth Brooks could sell out the arena, but who knows about, say, Kenny Chesney.

We can probably get some first and second round NCAA action at some point, but those games aren't a guaranteed sell-out, unless one of the area schools is playing, even then 18,000 is a lofty goal.

Convention business?  What do we have to offer over other cities which attract the big conventions?

Our demographic and population is always going to relegate us to having second tier professional sports.

Hey, I understand if we don't cast a line in the water, we won't catch any fish.  I still think we could have built a 12,000 or 14,000 seat arena, saved money and still gotten about the kind of shows we will wind up with anyhow.

You're not necessarily accurate in predicting that major concert tours will always choose OKC over Tulsa just because of a larger population.  Big-name concerts are granted to cities because of a venue's promotional efforts.  To someone who has played in New York or LA, OKC and Tulsa are very much the same size.  If you compare the 100-mile radius population of OKC and Tulsa, they're not much different.  A big name concert like the Red Hot Chili Peppers will draw an audience of about a 100-mile radius.
You also aren't considering the fact that there are constantly several big-name tours going on throughout the country.  Not everyone can play everywhere.  Most performers only have about a two-day window that they can play in a certain city.  If two major performers are doing a mid-america tour, they can't both play in the same place at the same time.  The reason I used Little Rock as an example before was because their arena recently hosted The Who, as well as other comparable well-known artists.  Even with their close proximity to Memphis, Little Rock is still able to land big-name gigs.

And, as someone already said, for NCAA tourney games, the requirement is around 16,000 seats.  Even a guaranteed sell out 12,000 or 14,000 seat arena wouldn't bring NCAA tourney games to Tulsa.

Good points, and I've stated all along I hope I'm wrong as to the eventual success of the building.  I'm just trying to figure out the ROI on the additional investment in seats for occasional first round NCAA ball or possibly somewhere further up the chain w/ NIT.

Promotional efforts are only relevant when you have either a demographic that is well-served by a venue or exclusivity of an event.  You might have the coolest venue in the world and a great promoter for, say, punk rock or indie music- but if that venue is in Sun City, Az. it's irrelevant because the demographic isn't there to sell tix.

One example of promotion and exclusivity is the Chili Bowl.  It's a boon for Tulsa because there is absolutely no other sporting event anywhere in the world just like it.  It brings in people from all over the country and even as far away as Australia and NZ.  If it had relied only on the Tulsa demographic and there were 20 races just like it around the country in the middle of winter, it would be a shadow of itself and wouldn't bring in near the out-of-state tourism dollars it does.  Tourism dollars are great because they introduce new money to the economy instead of it just being re-circulated locally as local sporting events like the Drillers and Oilers do.  

I'm not saying local sports is bad, just that they don't introduce very much in the way of new $$ to the local economy.

However, with a group like RHCP, you have to look at demographic along w/ population.  With two college towns w/in 80 miles, that demo is going to trump another area which doesn't fit their demographic.  OKC would likely continue to get bands like RHCP over Tulsa.

Major tours are costly.  They have to go where they get their biggest bang for the buck.  I really do hope they feel Tulsa can return that.  I'd love to see some big-time acts come through here.  I just don't think we are really on the radar scope like Dallas, KC, OKC, or Memphis.

[sgrizzle]

Concerts regularly rotate locations to. Many groups may alternate between Tulsa and OKC. When someone like RHCP is in Tulsa, people from OKC will come here and vice-versa.

Tulsa would also draw from Kansas, Missouri and Arkansas as well. If you count smaller colleges, Tulsa is probably has more around than OKC does because OKC had OU. NSU, RSC, ORU, TU, etc

[Chris]

The MLS possibility definitely needs to be looked at.

[cannon_fodder]

Good thoughts on using Skelly for other purposes.  I would like to think the University has thought of such things and/or already contacted some people.

Too many people think we need a new baseball and new soccer and new... everything else.  The assets we have are under utilized as it stands.  Lets use them, and we they are too busy to handle everything we'll talk about spending millions on something new.

[USRufnex]

"Too many people think we need a new baseball and new soccer and new... everything else. The assets we have are under utilized as it stands. Lets use them, and we they are too busy to handle everything we'll talk about spending millions on something new."--Cannon Fodder
-----------------------------------------------

Sorry, but I still think the number of people who think we need "new" is too few.

In terms of civic projects, OKC passed Tulsa sometime in the 90s and hasn't looked back.

Keep in mind that the 22,500-seat soccer-specific stadium (with a concert stage on one end) that former mayor LaFortune initially proposed in 2003 for Vision 2025 would have cost less than half the price of the BOk arena... add a new ballpark for the Drillers AND the same proposed convention center upgrades and you'd still have tens of millions of dollars left over from what the new arena is costing us...

I kept track of the naysayer feeding frenzy when Vision 2025 was to include a soccer stadium... "not one nickel, this... and not one dime, that"... then, local rags like the Tulsa Beacon droned on and on that an indoor arena would make more sense... downplayed the same 2003 MLS exhibition game mentioned above and never mentioned the 5,000 or so season ticket commitments for MLS in Tulsa.... so then in June 2003, LaFortune's administration changed their collective minds... in what I consider a pretty massive bait-and-switch...

Guess it's pretty hard to continue to be naysayers when the mayor calls your bluff and gives you an 18,000 seat indoor arena to vote fer or agin'.... I mean, if it's 12k - 14k, does that really accomplish anything?... the naysayers would simply have said "how stupid, they built it too small..."

The Ice Oilers and the Talons could just as easily fit their fanbase at UMAC, Expo Square, Mabee Center, the Reynolds Center and a renovated downtown civic center..... but Tulsa has only one larger outdoor stadium, and that is... Skelly Stadium.

But Tulsans still wanted to keep up with the Joneses (Little Rock & OKC)... and who could blame them after the hodge-podge of half-baked  projects that didn't pass in the 90s like the Tulsa Project?

And the much larger price-tag of this new arena now leaves far too many Tulsans thinking no facilities can ever be built in this town for at least another decade (or two)...

[cannon_fodder]

No where in that entire ramble did you make a good case for building a new stadium for baseball or soccer in Tulsa.  As the Oilers and Tallons can play in other venues - so could MLS and the Drillers.    The fact that you think OKC is ahead of Tulsa  or that you dont like the arena are not reasons to build stadiums.

A baseball stadium sits empty 90% of the time - why would we want 2 of them?  It sells out once per year for the bedlam game.  If we want people in downtown that badly, lets just pay people to go downtown.  At $5 each we could pay 2,000,000 people to go downtown.  That would blow $10mil and get people downtown without costing the city maintenance on another under utilized asset.  

And as far as MLS goes: Skelly has proven that it works perfectly for soccer.  The seasons do not overlap.  The stadium is under utilized and closer to the fan base (Hispanic community) than downtown is.  Not to mention, why would Tulsa want to get in the business of subsidizing professional sports?  The stadium would have one tenant that played a dozen games a year there.  What a waste.

Other than your hated 'keeping up with the Jones' what would be the point of building new stadiums? Certainly no conventions or massive events would occur at a soccer complex.  Even if we hosted the NCAA soccer tournament for a decade it wouldn't draw the crowds a single year of basketball would.  Likewise with a new baseball stadium.

[USRufnex]

2005 Total attendance for the Drillers:
335,018

MLS average attandance is around 15,000 per game... 16 home games = 240,000

***Once again, these "soccer specific" stadiums have been built with concert stages on one end... Skelly doesn't have that option.

Skelly Stadium without the future upgrades described in this thread, was unsuitable for MLS... the commissioner said so... so did Lamar Hunt... so your proclaimation of Skelly as "perfect for soccer" will not make it so...

Building an 18k capacity indoor arena at $140 million just for a handful of NCAA basketball tourney games is NOT a reason to build it.

You can argue that no public $$$ should be used to build arenas or stadiums... but the stadium for soccer/hs football/concerts would have cost less than half the price of the arena...

Since this thread is supposed to be about the new Chapman Stadium, maybe my arguments should be presented on another thread under Discussion... meet ya there.

[cannon_fodder]

You feel we erred by building the arena... my agreement on that point does not matter.  As it has no bearing on my disagreement with the need for a MLS stadium.  With, or without the arena it will be wasted space 95% of the time.  

Per concerts, Skelly could easily add a stage to one end zone if it was desired.  If you can hold a concert in the UNI Dome you can do it in Skelly with ease.  Or dozens of other outdoor venues are available in the Tulsa area for that matter (Drillers has been used - baseball stadiums actually work better than football due to orientation). The desire simply isnt there.

I dont understand what Skelly needs to be MLS certifiable.  It clearly has the capacity and the field.  What else do they want?  I really dont know.  I am sure if there was some interest $$$ could be allocated when a lease was signed.

Between Skelly, Union, BA, Jenks and Owasso I think we have enough football stadiums.  Drillers stadium is enough large baseball.  The BOk and expo is enough indoor arena space.  

I'll be happy to join you in a different thread...

[USRufnex]

Using your logic, no $$$ should be wasted on Skelly Stadium either, since it just sits vacant 95% of the year.... why should high schools build their own stadiums when they too sit vacant 95% of the time.

I do not feel we "erred" with the arena... it's one of many projects that were recommended for downtown Tulsa by the 2003 Convenstions, Sports, & Leisure feasability study... and it passed.  Thank god SOMETHING is being built downtown instead of surface parking, after 25 years of all-the-roads-you-can-eat elsewhere in Tulsa...

I am simply pointing out that the arena is costing MORE THAN DOUBLE the price of the initially proposed outdoor stadium... and will cost tens of millions of more dollars than the combined costs of a stadium and a downtown ballpark...

[cannon_fodder]

while I have moved this discussion to the other thread under discussion, I will respond here too

Skelly is a private facility owned and operated by the University of Tulsa.  They are free to do with their money as they see fit.  I feel college athletics is important to a school for community, reputation, and to provide a more thorough college experience.  Not to mention UTulsa allows their students to use the stadium on off days.

Athletics are likewise a vital part of high school.  Stadium do not need to be as fancy as they are, but I think a high school football game is a quintessential American experience.  It serves purposes for the school, the students, and the community as a whole.

A pro stadium, on the other hand, is a publicly subsidized form of entertainment.  It serves some important functions for publicity for the city and *can* be a centerpiece of the community.  But at the end of the day it is taking public money and giving it to specified public interests.  The players, the team owners and the direct fans gain at the expense of all tax payers with questionable returns (usually blackmail for a better stadium).

as for the cost - see the other thread.