Reality Check: Memo from Mexico

[MichaelC]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

You can't point a finger at one person and say it's their fault.

Yes you can.  Either Bush played politics with his own party trying to force "Comprehensive" down their throats, or 6 years of GOP congresses played politics striking it down.  For the last six years, the Congresses weren't doing a damn thing anyway.  They weren't interested in solving the problem.

911 did change a lot of things.  Your GOP failed, and this, your explanation placing politics before pragmatism, is exactly why.

[cannon_fodder]

MichaelC:

I did not merely point out Mexico's unwillingness to control the border nor did I make an excuse for the USA not doing so.  I simply pointed out the hypocrisy of Mexico's positions.  They treat their illegals worse than criminals and demand we treat illegal Mexicans like god sends. They crack down on their southern borders but protest when we try to do the same.

RWARN:

It is not just evil big rich corporate types that complain when border control is threatened, there as just as many tree hugging hippy liberals that complain about people "just wanting a better life" and treated them "like criminals."  Both sides of the fence dont really want their to be a...fence.

[MichaelC]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

MichaelC:

I did not merely point out Mexico's unwillingness to control the border nor did I make an excuse for the USA not doing so.  I simply pointed out the hypocrisy of Mexico's positions.  They treat their illegals worse than criminals and demand we treat illegal Mexicans like god sends. They crack down on their southern borders but protest when we try to do the same.

I agree.  Instead of invading Iraq, we should have toppled the Mexican gov't.  At the very least, Mexico has a history of Democracy.

Doesn't cover up the fact that all we do is b****, watch the side show, and do nothing.

[iplaw]

quote:911 did change a lot of things. Your GOP failed, and this, your explanation placing politics before pragmatism, is exactly why.

[}:)]  This coming from a Democrat!!!  Thanks for the laugh.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by MichaelC

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

Blaming it all on Bush and his rich buddies is overly simplistic.  Why not blame it on Clinton and buddies of his like Tyson, who just happens to employ a lot of cheap imported labor?  This border problem didn't just spring up after 9/11.  It's been an ever-growing problem since the 1970's.  There is far more blame to go around than just Bush II.

You guys come on here talking about 911 changed the world so much that you had to invade Iraq.  But 911 is not a big enough factor for Bush and six years of GOP dominated congresses to get border security through.  Now it may very well be too late, and that's your answer.

I don't think any of you give a damn about security.

Interestingly, the two of you keep pointing fingers at Bush, but Democrats and Bush are on the same page on what reform should look like.  Saying everything is Bush's fault is easy.  Taking the time to really analyze what happens in Washington takes more time than reading op-ed pieces.

The mistake Bush has made in the past on the issue is tying in border security with amnesty which pissed off many Republican lawmakers.  This should have been two separate issues.  Secure the border, then debate and decide what to do with the illegal aliens who are here.

"The country's immigration system, assailed by all sides as inadequate, generated intense congressional debate in 2006. However, widely divergent approaches by the House of Representatives and the Senate doomed efforts at comprehensive reform. Democrats, now in leadership positions in the 110th Congress, say they will attempt to revive efforts at comprehensive immigration reform with measures that encompass temporary work provisions, a path to citizenship for illegal aliens in the country, as well as bolstered security at the border. President Bush and a number of Senate Republicans share common ground with Democrats on many key aspects of immigration reform, including efforts to legalize many of the estimated twelve million illegal immigrants in the country. Congressional Republicans opposed to such moves, though diminished in numbers since the 2006 election, have vowed to fight any attempt at what they term an amnesty for workers who break the law."

http://www.cfr.org/publication/12628/110th_congress_and_immigration_reform.html#5

If all you rely on are slanted op-ed pieces to form opinions on border security and immigration, you aren't getting anywhere near the full story.  Research voting records on key bills and you will find that Democrats and Republicans have bungled this issue and been sharply divided on it within their own parties.  It's politics as usual.  Nothing more nothing less.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by MichaelC

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

MichaelC:

I did not merely point out Mexico's unwillingness to control the border nor did I make an excuse for the USA not doing so.  I simply pointed out the hypocrisy of Mexico's positions.  They treat their illegals worse than criminals and demand we treat illegal Mexicans like god sends. They crack down on their southern borders but protest when we try to do the same.

I agree.  Instead of invading Iraq, we should have toppled the Mexican gov't.  At the very least, Mexico has a history of Democracy.

Doesn't cover up the fact that all we do is b****, watch the side show, and do nothing.

Topple the Mexican Gov't?  That's just plain bigotry.[]

[cannon_fodder]

Did I somehow advocate toppling the Mexican government?  I don't recall that.  Please make your case, because I dont think it would be a good idea at all.  

I'm fairly confident I have made my immigration stance crystal clear.

[MichaelC]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Did I somehow advocate toppling the Mexican government?  I don't recall that.  Please make your case, because I dont think it would be a good idea at all.

No.  I did.  As a better use for the US military.

The Mexican gov't is the way it is, despite democracy.  And it will continue to be that way for the forseeable future, barring an election miracle or outside intervention.  The corrupt nature of the Mexican gov't is nearly as strong as the hold on power the Baathists had in Iraq.

How's invading Mexico better than invading Iraq?  Apply to Mexico, all the optimism this Administration stated in regards to Iraq.  Their optimism, would have turned out mostly true if applied to Mexico.

Now, am I advocating invasion?  No.  I'm advocating securing the borders.

[MichaelC]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

Interestingly, the two of you keep pointing fingers at Bush, but Democrats and Bush are on the same page on what reform should look like.  Saying everything is Bush's fault is easy.  Taking the time to really analyze what happens in Washington takes more time than reading op-ed pieces.

The mistake Bush has made in the past on the issue is tying in border security with amnesty which pissed off many Republican lawmakers.  This should have been two separate issues.  Secure the border, then debate and decide what to do with the illegal aliens who are here.

I agree.  He wanted it both ways, and instead of doing the right thing, he pushed it and pushed it.

And Democrats are roughly (can never say completely) on the same page as Bush.  Hope it gets done, despite the passage of time and tons of missed opportunities.  Every second this is allowed to go on without being addressed, it's more likely it won't happen.  That's where the GOP failed.  Post-911, they could have gotten it done and no-one would have complained.  It's one of the supreme advantages of having a GOP party, they can easily be placed on the same page if you have the right bill.  An extremely pressing matter, and they played some weird game of internal politics.