hey mayor, you got my vote & $- where's the beef?

[Double A]

quote:Originally posted by Hometown

Conan, You're no spring chicken either and your party is where my party was in 1978.  You are headed into the valley of darkness and that is where you will be for most of the rest of your life.

I thought you had flamed out back to Cali? Taylor sucks, she's a female Lafortune.

[Wilbur]

quote:Originally posted by Chicken Little

quote:Originally posted by Wilbur


To say the Mayor's proposal to raise money through a fire protection district is not a tax increase is just flat wrong.

Wow.  Asking to switch a funding stream from sales tax to property tax change is not the same as a tax increase.  That's not spin, that's logic.  If the ability for the City to form a fire district were granted, then I presume the voters would have been given a chance to decide.  Maybe they would have demanded an offset; maybe Tulsa would have lowered its sales tax.  I don't know and neither do you.  All I know is that the state legislators denied us this opportunity for self-determination because they want to preserve an archaic county government power structure that does Tulsa no good.  It's all a moot point now, but at least Taylor tried...and I hope she keeps trying until we have a way to prosper in the future.

Lets all come back to reality.  The intent behind the Mayor's desire to request monies through a fire protection district is to increase revenue.  Has that not been her entire discussion, along with most of the city councilors, is to raise revenue?  You don't raise revenue by offsetting someplace else.  Did she ever propose offsets, either to the legislature or to the media?  She might have had better chances with the legislature if she proposed offsets.  Her proposal, in the end, would raise taxes.

quote:And for the good councilor to say taxes haven't been raised in Tulsa since 1980 is just flat wrong.  

An increase in revenue to a government through new fees or an increase in existing fees is a tax increase, regardless if you say those fees will be used for a specific purpose or you don't call it a tax.  That raise in my water/sewer rates equals a tax increase.

 No, water and sewer is fee-for-service.  It's a different revenue stream.  Water and sewer fees can only be used to maintain those systems.  But if you insist that clean water is a tax, then have your water shut off and give yourself a tax break! []
I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure the city won't allow me to drill my own well nor bury my trash in my backyard.  To say water is voluntary is like saying the taxes you pay to the IRS is voluntary.  It's called voluntary, but there is nothing voluntary about it.  I can't go to any other company for water/trash service.  An increase in fees without an increase in benefits, is an increase in taxes.

quote:That new EMSA subsidy added to my water bill (I opted out - don't forget to opt out by June 30) equals a tax increase.

 By definition, taxes are involuntary payments demanded by government.  This is not compulsory and therefore not a tax.  It's a fee, if you are okay with a lower level of service, then you can opt out.
I'll almost agree here that anyone can opt out, but most folks won't.  EMSA wanted in the area of $1.6M.  The new subsidy raises far more then that.  Not all of it will end up with EMSA.  That equals a tax increase.

quote:That 911 subsidy added to my phone bill equals a tax increase.

Yes, it is because it's compulsory. But it's also targeted.  911 fees go to support 911, not the general operations of the City.
911 is an operation of the city.  All of the equipment and employees belong to the city.  Tax increase.

quote:The increase in sales tax for Vision 2025, of which the majority of the money goes to the City, equals a tax increase.

 It's a county tax.  Per capita, surrounding communities got far more than Tulsa.  I never liked the arena either, but don't obfuscate by saying that the arena money is being spent only for the benefit of Tulsans.

quote:
Never said the arena only benefits Tulsans and I'll agree that, technically, Vision 2025 is a county tax.  But the majority of the money goes to the City of Tulsa.  Tax increase.

quote:That temporary Whirlpool tax equals a tax increase.

Tax abatements s*ck, you'll get no argument from me, but again, that was a county thing.

... and was a tax increase.  But I will also say, one of the extremely few 'temporary' taxes that actually went away.  People would be far more inclined to approve 'temporary' tax increases if they ever were temporary.

quote:All of these have happened since 1980.  Shall I go on?

Yes, you'd better, because, of the four examples you have cited, not of your "taxes" could have been used to support police salaries, fire salaries, and other general operations (Streets, Parks, Finance).  That funding source has been the same 2% since 1971.  And that's why our streets are cruddy, our parks are overgrown, and our public safety folks are fighting everyone and every thing in order to get what they need to protect us.  There's no place left to cut.
The majority of street projects were taken out of the operations budget and put into Third Penny, thus freeing up all that money.  Our streets aren't so bad compared to a lot of other cities.  I'll agree many streets are in the process of repair, but that is what we voted for.

quote:Think about how this city has changed since 1971.  It is more spread out, meaning, in order to keep response times down, you need more fire stations, ambulance crews, policemen, patrol cars, and gasoline per capita to maintain the same level of service.

Now consider all of those personnel and capital costs that have outpaced inflation:  education, health care, energy (gas and electricity), and even concrete and steel (thanks, China).    

The City changed but the revenue hasn't.  

quote:The problem with the spin that comes out from City Hall is they only quote ONE section of the City's total budget picture, and that is the operating budget.  Problem is, there are lots more budgets, such as the capital budget and others.  I will totally agree that 2 cents of our sales taxes goes to fund the operating budget and no other taxes are identified to operating expenses.  But whose fault is that?  We add taxes on top of taxes but always specifically say those new taxes can't be used for operating expenses.  Nothing says Third Penny can't be used for operating expenses, it's just that is how Third Penny is offered up to the tax payers.

Like I have said before, you must look at total city expenditures, not just one section of the budget.  I will stand by my previous statement, the city is spending record amounts of money.

You mention the City's budget is flat when compared to inflation.  I agree the operating budget is flat when compared to inflation.  And personnel costs, health care costs, fuel costs, all go into inflation, just as it does for every citizen in this town.  That is what inflation is.  

I know what inflation is.  I also know that the city doesn't buy groceries, clothes, plama tvs, and sports equipment.  Globalization, for better or worse, has made lots of these things cheaper since the 1970s.  On the other hand, costs associated with personnel, energy, and facilities have gone up.  The city skews towards these things and they have outpaced inflation.
You might check into how many tvs, computers, groceries, ..... the city actually buys.

quote:Additionally, a budget that keeps up with inflation, such as Tulsa's, is what many people want.  [/quote]Yes, but it doesn't keep up.

quote:They don't want new programs creeping up every time government finds new money to spend.

I agree with everyone at City Hall that employee costs are the majority of city expenditures in the operating budget (but not the total budget picture).[/quote]  Tell us what you'd cut, then.  Martinson showed us that things like Parks and Finance have been severely cut already.  Where's the fat?  

quote:Government is strictly non-profit, we don't sell a product, so as with any non-profit agency, the majority of our expenditure will be on personnel.  I also agree public safety is the majority of the operating budget (but not the total budget picture), as it is with every government agency.  Fire trucks, ambulances, police cars, ........ are expensive.

I get tired of hearing how poor the City SAYS they are, but we seem to have plenty of money to buy a new City Hall, or some other pet project depending on who the mayor is.  Again, it all comes down to priorities in spending.
[/quote]We're not that far apart on many things, Wilbur.  You recognize the problems, but your "solution" is grounded in rhetoric, not reality.  Tulsa is pretty efficient right now; several rounds of cuts will do that to a bureaucracy.  And the mayor keeps looking for new ways to save money.  Should we combine the City, County, Riverparks Systems and share personnel and equipment?  Why the h*ll not...it's worth a look anyway?  What about fire departments? Police forces?  Let's keep looking.  
Does it make sense to consolidate in a new city hall in a spanking new building and sell off several older properties for redevelopment.  We're all waiting on the numbers, but it, too, was worth a look.  If it makes financial sense over the long haul, is it really a "pet project"?
[/quote]

[Chicken Little]

quote:Originally posted by Wilbur

Lets all come back to reality.  The intent behind the Mayor's desire to request monies through a fire protection district is to increase revenue.  Has that not been her entire discussion, along with most of the city councilors, is to raise revenue?  You don't raise revenue by offsetting someplace else.  Did she ever propose offsets, either to the legislature or to the media?  She might have had better chances with the legislature if she proposed offsets.  Her proposal, in the end, would raise taxes.

No, the intent behind the Mayor's request was to allow cities the same rights that counties and rural areas now enjoy.  If the legislature had approved the right to form a fire district, the Mayor would have gone to the voters.  You didn't hear any talk about offsets because she wasn't proposing a district; she was simply asking for the right to form one.  The state denied Tulsans this right.  I thought you conservatives hated "big brother" government, the kind that makes all of our decisions for us.  I'm relatively liberal, and the thought of our State denying us the right to choose our government is sickening.

quote:I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure the city won't allow me to drill my own well nor bury my trash in my backyard.  To say water is voluntary is like saying the taxes you pay to the IRS is voluntary.  It's called voluntary, but there is nothing voluntary about it.  I can't go to any other company for water/trash service.  An increase in fees without an increase in benefits, is an increase in taxes.

By definition, it's not a tax, it's a service.  Tulsa keeps the money it makes off of this service in separate accounts.   The money can only be used to meet current and future needs of the water system, not build arenas or any other "pet projects".  Are you still unclear about this?

quote:911 is an operation of the city.  All of the equipment and employees belong to the city.  Tax increase.

I recognized this in the previous post.  It's also a County tax.  But it is tagged to cover 911 operations...again, it can't be used to pay cop salaries, build arenas, or anything else.

quote:Never said the arena only benefits Tulsans and I'll agree that, technically, Vision 2025 is a county tax.  But the majority of the money goes to the City of Tulsa.  Tax increase.

I can't follow your logic.  Here's what I would conclude from your post:  if the majority of the money is going to the arena, and the arena benefits the citizens of entire region, then Tulsa did not get a disproportionate share of the County's tax increase.  

quote:
... and was a tax increase.  But I will also say, one of the extremely few 'temporary' taxes that actually went away.  People would be far more inclined to approve 'temporary' tax increases if they ever were temporary.

There you go again...blaming the City for increases by the County.  Yes, absolutely, the County has figured out how to poke their noses into the sales tax.  That's a huge part of the city's problem right now.  The property tax wasn't enough for the county, apparently. And now they are up over a penny (more than half of what Tulsa uses for operations)! These are tax increases, but they aren't CITY increases.    Martinson's telling the truth, the City hasn't raised your taxes since the 1980 third penny.  

quote:The majority of street projects were taken out of the operations budget and put into Third Penny, thus freeing up all that money.  Our streets aren't so bad compared to a lot of other cities.  I'll agree many streets are in the process of repair, but that is what we voted for.

Our streets are in the top 10 worst in the nation...get informed, man.  They weren't "taken out" of anything; they simply weren't getting done before.  Sadly, the city still isn't able to keep up.  You don't agree that sprawl has made street maintenance (and patrolling, etc.) harder?

quote:You might check into how many tvs, computers, groceries, ..... the city actually buys.

Seriously, are you trying to mislead us?  The above-linked council report says it all; 76% of the operations fund is personnel.  Add in other things like gasoline and asphalt.  Tulsa isn't spending most of their money on groceries and plasma tvs, its on personnel, fuel, and materials...all of which have outpaced inflation.

Councilor Martinson said, accurately, that the city of Tulsa has not raised your taxes since 1980.  And that operations have been funded by the same 2 pennies since 1971.  And he also points out that much of what the City pays for in operations (personnel costs, etc.) have outpaced inflation.

You want to make a liar out of him, so, you keep throwing up county taxes, those are just red herrings.  But thanks for helping me make my point indirectly.  Tulsa County and the State are the ones that have gone power hungry and money crazy in this messed up system.  Tulsa's a victim.

It may be fun to pick on the Mayor and Councilors that are trying to do their job, but as this fire district thing proves, they are just small players in a bigger game.

[TheArtist]

Water and garbage is voluntary.  You can buy water and have it delivered.  You can take your own garbage to a dump or even get a private service to come pick it up.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

Water and garbage is voluntary.  You can buy water and have it delivered.  You can take your own garbage to a dump or even get a private service to come pick it up.

And use a hole in the ground or a porta-pottie and collect shower water in a cistern.

Personally though, the convenience of having it all delivered by a sole-source provider makes my life easier. []

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by Hometown

Conan, You're no spring chicken either and your party is where my party was in 1978.  You are headed into the valley of darkness and that is where you will be for most of the rest of your life.

Yeah well, I've got a few feathers starting to fall out, but I don't have marbles rolling around in my head yet.

[daddys little squirt]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

Water and garbage is voluntary.  You can buy water and have it delivered.  You can take your own garbage to a dump or even get a private service to come pick it up.

And use a hole in the ground or a porta-pottie and collect shower water in a cistern.

Personally though, the convenience of having it all delivered by a sole-source provider makes my life easier. []

Lots of people had water wells installed back in the early eighties when rationing was implemented in Tulsa. Not illegal. Routine testing is a good idea. My gentleman farmer brother uses treated pond water. Also, recycling sewage is becoming more common often being used in remote locations and in sprinkler systems. Many boats use incineration systems to reduce sewage to sterile ash. People did survive before city utilities.

[patric]

The Mayor got a 14% approval rating on last night's FOX23 Flash poll, so at least somebody still loves her [B)]

[Conan71]

Gives Bush something to shoot for.  Or at least he can say there is at least one leader in the country with a lower approval rating than his own.