Terrorism in America

[FOTD]

The overwhelming fear sowed by the "leadership" figures and the jingoistic, flag-waving, faux "patriotism" demeaning any-and-all who dared question the "official" line on matters shut down reasonable and responsible doubt.

[Rico]

quote:Originally posted by Wingnut

From a World Net Daily story: http://worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=56293
"How is it a front-runner for the highest office in the land can reject an American flag on his lapel but permit the display of a huge Cuban flag at one of his offices, emblazoned with a mass murderer's mug?" the publication asked.

"Barack Obama, displaying the same 'anything goes' standard of patriotism he showed when he ostentatiously refused to wear a U.S. flag in his lapel, now shows he's got a whole different idea about patriotism," the publication continued.

"Rather than repudiate the image, Obama would only call it 'inappropriate,' apparently without insisting it be taken down. That contrasts with his dismissal of his Senate colleagues who wear lapel flags as 'hypocrites.' Some hypocrites," IBD said.

"The display of the Castroite flag with Che's picture on it sends a particularly disturbing message about his campaign. Apparently, Obama tends to attract the kind of people who think of mass murderers like Che and Fidel as romantic revolutionaries. Those same people see Obama as a man with a messianic message.

quote: People must see clearly the futility of maintaining the fight for social goals within the framework of civil debate.

It almost sounds like your advocating an armed uprising here in the U.S.


Let's see what che accomplished in Cuba...
Chief executioner for the Castro regime, responsible for the murder of thousands
Was appointed Cuba's Minister of Economics in 1960; within months the Cuban peso was practically worthless.
Was appointed Cuba's Minister of Industries in 1961; within a year a previously prosperous nation was rationing food, closing factories, and losing hundreds of thousands of its most productive citizens, who were happy to flee with only the clothes on their backs.


Two weeks after Che entered Havana and took his post at La Cabana fortress, Castro saw his instincts as a personnel manager fully vindicated. The "acrid odor of gunpowder and blood" never reached Guevara's nostrils from actual combat. It always came from the close range murder of bound, gagged and blindfolded men. "We must create the pedagogy of the paredon (firing squad.)" Che instructed his Revolutionary Tribunals: "We don't need proof to execute a man. We only need proof that it's necessary to execute him. A revolutionary must become a cold killing machine motivated by pure hate."
From: http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=2054

Is this the kind of subhuman that a presidental candidate should consider just "inapproiate"?

quote: "When George W. Bush said of our "Constitution that it is "... just a Goddamn piece of paper!",  

That's why we have checks and balances in our gov't and don't rule by decree like castro and che.

Well,"Terrorism in America"... and to top that an expert on Che and Fidel..

Tell me are you as well versed on Batista?



Well back on "Terrorism in the USA"

two words come to mind cosa nostra....

Of course the end objective is quite different...

[we vs us]

I have no idea what your post meant, but I bow before your Great and Terrible Lime Helmet.

[cannon_fodder]

Wevus, I'm very disappointed in you.  Oolong was made EXACTLY for these moments:


1. A terrorist has a political agenda. A vigilante sets out to right a perceived wrong on his own under the guise of justice.  A murderer sets out to kill specific targets.  A homicidal maniac sets out to indiscriminately kill a multitude of people in a  single incident (aka Kill Crazy Rampage).  A serial killer does so over a period of time.

It looks like this guy was a murderer as he selected a group of targets and killed them.  No political agenda is known or even claimed.

Hence, NOT a terrorist.

2. As far as I am aware the kids at Columbine nor VT were particularly politically oriented either way.  To pretend that "right wingers" perpetrate more violence is extremely obtuse.

Pol Pot killed several million as a leftist.
Mao Zedong killed tens of millions as a leftist.
Ho Chi Mihn,  leftist.
Stalin was a socialist to the extreme and killed tens of millions.
Charlie Manson was a devoted Democrat.
As was Jon Wayne Gacy.
Jim Jones...

Yep, only right wingers kill people.  Great point.

3. Che was a mercenary for hire.  I think he started with ideals and fought what he thought was the good fight, but as soon as he became the chief state executioner and killed thousands of unarmed people who probably were not actually guilty (he didn't care so long as it looked like they were guilty) he became another power crazed thug.  He was no better than Saddam's sons.  Here's some other factoids about Che:

a) He even invented the title of "doctor."  He never earned a doctorate (oh, oh, I have!).  

b) He bribed more victories than won by combat.

c) Operations to bomb the Statue of Liberty, the Liberty Bell and the Washington monument were all thwarted before anything could be done. Mostly because when attacked he had a tendency to run away and leave everything behind.

d) Socialist Che had a mansion, a Yacht, a private waterfall at his oceanside villa, a Rolex (which was on him when captured and is still on display), and multiple TVs.  

e) He founded a labor camp for homosexuals called with the slogan "work will make men out of you."  The slogan for Auschwitz was "work will set you free" which he cited as a model.

f) His army was as much conscripts as it was volunteers, if you deserted you were tortured and then summarily executed by Che himself.

g) As chief executioner he had his bound victims gagged before shooting them so they could not denounce him with their last breath (read: pussy).

h)For amusement he would sometimes slit the throats of prisoners as they slept.

i) When the CIA caught up to him he shouted in surrender  "I am el Che! I am worth more to you alive than dead!"  His last words were "Do you know Who I am? Do you know what I'm worth?" according to the man who shot him (not: "I know you are here to kill me. Shoot, coward, you are only going to kill a man" which has no attribution).

j) His image was crated by Fidel to prop up his own regime AFTER he cast Che out of Cuba and killed.

So there's a great man to idolize.  A murderer, a hypocrite (socialist with a mansion and Rolex, surely no socialist on here lives in such luxury), and a myth.  He was described by his captures as a demoralized man that made you sad to see in such a manner.



Even the same pose they used for Saddam's sons. Are they heroes too or not yet because they aren't cool to have on a T-Shirt?

The truth probably lies somewhere in the middle as always.  But the facts support the above image more than the peace loving humble socialist and the time line doesn't support the "dear friend of Fidel" roll that is still played out.  It is undeniable that he lived in Cuban splendor, enjoyed executing people, and founded a labor camp for homosexuals.

Those items alone should be enough for a liberal such as yourself (FOTD) to despise the man.  Ignoring the fact that as the son of a rich man he'd take away your silver spoon and probably execute your entire family - which one might think you would find offensive.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by swake

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

Let's see, why don't we call that drag race out in Maryland early this morning terrorism, there were seven spectators killed there?  Sure scared the **** out of a lot of people.

Back to topic at hand:

The chances of taking a slug from some random nut-job are greatly diminished if you are packing.

I'm not advocating the banning of guns, but the vast majority of murders are between people that know each other and you are far more likely to be killed or injured by your own gun than to use it in self defense. Most cops by far have never even fired their guns at a person.

I do think guns should be legal but I don't like widely available conceal and carry permits and I do like background checks and cooling off periods when buying guns. I do think there should be very strict checks on people buying semi-automatic assault rifles and automatic weapons should be banned. ammunition such as armor piercing rounds that make cops less safe should also be banned from sale.  

If a background check would include mental illness (which has been killed by our own good Senator Coburn because he worries about former soldiers with PTSD not being able to buy guns) or if there was a longer waiting period the gunman outside Chicago this week would have had two fewer guns to shoot at people with.

I appreciate you not wanting an outright ban on guns.  Some parts of your post are directly from the anti-gun lobby talking points.  That's fine, that is their first amendment right.

I assure you that every time I fill out the paperwork to purchase either a long arm or a pistol the application asks if I've been adjudged mentally-defective, asks about my citizenship, and whether or not I've been convicted of a felony.

Waiting periods don't stop rampages on campuses, they just delay them, or encourage people to purchase contraband firearms off the black market.  The system in place now is not perfect, but it's far better than what could happen with more gun control.

People who shouldn't have guns will always be able to get them one way or another.  That's part of the reason why I legally own firearms.  I pity the a$$hole dumb or unfortunate enough to invade my home.  We aren't going to sit and talk about his tragic childhood over a cup of tea.

[Rico]

quote:Originally posted by we vs us

I have no idea what your post meant, but I bow before your Great and Terrible Lime Helmet.

Never fear my friend.... You too can have a "Lime Helmet" and enter into the dogma that is politics..



fodder...? is that anything like wadding?
They sell wadding at Petty's.

as you have said the "Truth more than likely lies somewhere in the middle"


from where I sit you have much more work to do convincing the "gringo" press like......


Wikipedia

[mr.jaynes]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

quote:Originally posted by swake

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

Let's see, why don't we call that drag race out in Maryland early this morning terrorism, there were seven spectators killed there?  Sure scared the **** out of a lot of people.

Back to topic at hand:

The chances of taking a slug from some random nut-job are greatly diminished if you are packing.

I'm not advocating the banning of guns, but the vast majority of murders are between people that know each other and you are far more likely to be killed or injured by your own gun than to use it in self defense. Most cops by far have never even fired their guns at a person.

I do think guns should be legal but I don't like widely available conceal and carry permits and I do like background checks and cooling off periods when buying guns. I do think there should be very strict checks on people buying semi-automatic assault rifles and automatic weapons should be banned. ammunition such as armor piercing rounds that make cops less safe should also be banned from sale.  

If a background check would include mental illness (which has been killed by our own good Senator Coburn because he worries about former soldiers with PTSD not being able to buy guns) or if there was a longer waiting period the gunman outside Chicago this week would have had two fewer guns to shoot at people with.

I appreciate you not wanting an outright ban on guns.  Some parts of your post are directly from the anti-gun lobby talking points.  That's fine, that is their first amendment right.

I assure you that every time I fill out the paperwork to purchase either a long arm or a pistol the application asks if I've been adjudged mentally-defective, asks about my citizenship, and whether or not I've been convicted of a felony.

Waiting periods don't stop rampages on campuses, they just delay them, or encourage people to purchase contraband firearms off the black market.  The system in place now is not perfect, but it's far better than what could happen with more gun control.

People who shouldn't have guns will always be able to get them one way or another.  That's part of the reason why I legally own firearms.  I pity the a$$hole dumb or unfortunate enough to invade my home.  We aren't going to sit and talk about his tragic childhood over a cup of tea.

Amen, Conan!

[guido911]

Ed W:

Here's another link. This one sorta involves Obama (although I think its a non-starter).

http://www.nysun.com/article/71421

[Wingnut]

Some info on the real victims of che...
http://www.therealcuba.com/MurderedbyChe.htm

His thoughts on North Korea.....
He also visited Pyongyang and told the press that North Korea was a model to which revolutionary Cuba should aspire.[78]


He was appointed commander of the La Cabaña Fortress prison, and during his five-month tenure in that post (January 2 through June 12, 1959),[55] he oversaw the trial and execution of many people, among whom were former Batista regime officials and members of the "Bureau for the Repression of Communist Activities" (BRAC), a unit of the secret police known by its Spanish acronym. José Vilasuso, an attorney who worked under Guevara at La Cabaña preparing indictments, said that these were lawless proceedings where "the facts were judged without any consideration to general juridical principles" and the findings were pre-determined by Guevara.[56][57] It is estimated that between 156[58] and 550[59] people were executed on Guevara's extra-judicial orders during this time.[60]


che on nuclear missles....
Castro and Che planned their Manhattan holocaust short weeks after Nikita Khrushchev foiled their plans for an even bigger one. "Say hello to my little friends!" they dreamt of yelling at the Yankee hyenas in October of 1962, right before the mushroom clouds. But for the prudence of the Butcher of Budapest (Nikita Khrushchev) they might have pulled it off. "If the missiles had remained," Che Guevara confided to The London Daily Worker in November 1962 regarding the Cuban Missile Crisis, "We would have used them against the very heart of the U.S., including New York City."
On the eve of his trip to New York, Che gave a speech in Santiago Cuba where he declared: "We must learn the lesson of absolute abhorrence of imperialism. Against that class of hyena there is no other medium than extermination!" [28]
Two years earlier, Guevara had gotten tantalizingly close to that medium. "If the missiles had remained we would have used them against the very heart of the United States, including New York," he told the London Daily Worker in November of 1962. "We must never establish peaceful co-existence. We must walk the path of victory even if it costs millions of atomic victims." [29]
"Extermination," Che stressed. "Millions of atomic victims," he said for the record. "Pure hate, as the motivating force," he repeatedly declared.    

Heartwarming story.. http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=E9BFCD71-2B70-4DA8-A528-2CD80BF7F52D

che's trials by jury.....
Francisco Rodriguez Tamayo was a Rebel captain who had been in on many of these transactions but he defected mere months after the Rebel victory. In an El Diario de Nueva York article dated June 25th 1959 he claimed that Castro still had $4,500,000 left in that "fund" at the time of the Revolutionary victory. "I don't know what might have happened to that money." Rodriguez Tamayo adds.
Yet immediately after the Santa Clara bribe and skirmish, Che ordered 27 Batista soldiers executed as "war criminals." Dr. Serafin Ruiz was a Castro operative in Santa Clara at the time, but apparently an essentially decent one. "But Comandante" he responded to Che's order. "Our revolution promises not to execute without trials, without proof. How can we just....?"
"Look Serafin" Che snorted back. "If your bourgeois prejudices won't allow you to carry out my orders, fine. Go ahead and try them tomorrow morning -- but execute them NOW!" [9]




Sources: http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=2054
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Che_Guevara

[Rico]

^

I think so much time has gone by since the initial revolutionary takeover in Cuba that one can find some form of document or dead witness testimony to support almost any belief you may wish to proffer.

There are those that latch on to people such as Che and Fidel and attach their agenda to what they suppose the agenda of the Cuban revolutionaries were.

One advantage to having grown up out of Country...
I was in Havana in 57, 59, 60, and 61.


All I can tell you.. is if you always believe what the Newspapers say is happening... Vaya con Dios.

[Ed W]

quote:Originally posted by guido911

Ed W:

Here's another link. This one sorta involves Obama (although I think its a non-starter).

http://www.nysun.com/article/71421

This thread is suffering from topic creep, what with talk of Pol Pot and Che Guevara.  I think up top it says something about domestic terrorism?

As for the Weather Underground and Obama, you're right, the story is a bit of a stretch.  I don't think it's likely that the campaigns do a Google search on each and every contributor, but the news organizations (particularly the ones looking for dirt) have the resources.  

I knew some Students for a Democratic Society members way back when.  The Weather Underground grew out of SDS.  Does that make me a bomb-throwing radical too?

[guido911]

quote:Originally posted by Ed W

I knew some Students for a Democratic Society members way back when.  The Weather Underground grew out of SDS.  Does that make me a bomb-throwing radical too?

Uh. Yes. And I'm tellin.[]

[Rico]

quote:Originally posted by Ed W

quote:Originally posted by guido911

Ed W:

Here's another link. This one sorta involves Obama (although I think its a non-starter).

http://www.nysun.com/article/71421

This thread is suffering from topic creep, what with talk of Pol Pot and Che Guevara.  I think up top it says something about domestic terrorism?

As for the Weather Underground and Obama, you're right, the story is a bit of a stretch.  I don't think it's likely that the campaigns do a Google search on each and every contributor, but the news organizations (particularly the ones looking for dirt) have the resources.  

I knew some Students for a Democratic Society members way back when.  The Weather Underground grew out of SDS.  Does that make me a bomb-throwing radical too?

I agree Ed.. earlier on I tried to point out that certain entities within the US (cosa nostra) practice what I believe to be terrorism.. You can take that even a few steps further.. The "Crypts" "Bloods" "MS 13"... many criminal organizations in the USA use terrorism as a form of enforcement and to further their agenda.

By the way... you see how much you can learn by reading Tulsa Now's forum
here I thought the Weather Underground was just a good way to keep track of the weather.
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