Obama's Running Mate?

[waterboy]

Gassy, you make me smile. Every election since I was a child in the I LIKE IKE era, I have heard about how Democrats are the big spenders and Liberals the biggest spenders of all. LBJ actually tried to live up to those blatherings. But it has been historically the Republican winners who have stolen the treasury. Very conservative Republicans. Nixon wasted tons of money by failing to pull out of Viet Nam when he knew it was done to save American face. Reagan opened the floodgates for debt. Bush I called it Voodoo economics then later embraced fiscal lunacy. Bush II made it seem patriotic.

I'm sorry. You have 0 credibility with me. You hear a proposal for a program to solve a problem and all you see is 100's of millions of expense with no plus side. Not too balanced an outlook. Do you prefer the current health system that keeps us just above third world status? Do you like the progress of the war? Well guess what, they are just proposals. Trial balloons. Prospective solutions. To you, seeking solutions is pandering. How enlightened. Very few of them from either candidate will ever get past preliminary congressional scrutiny. But it least Obama's thinking. When my good friend Jeff warned me in 1975 that Jimmy Carter's tax proposals would eliminate my home mortgage interest tax deductions, I was skeptical. So was congress. Took it off my taxes this year for the 31st year in a row.

Being so deep into Tulsa culture has narrowed your vision. Its time to come out of the closet Gas. Your no Libertarian. You hate Obama, you hate Hillary, but strangely McCain isn't mentioned much but with some reverence. Perhaps you think he's conservative too? Pish, posh.

[Gaspar]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy



I'm sorry. You have 0 credibility with me. You hear a proposal for a program to solve a problem and all you see is 100's of millions of expense with no plus side. Not too balanced an outlook. Do you prefer the current health system that keeps us just above third world status? Do you like the progress of the war? Well guess what, they are just proposals. Trial balloons. Prospective solutions. To you, seeking solutions is pandering. How enlightened. Very few of them from either candidate will ever get past preliminary congressional scrutiny. But it least Obama's thinking. When my good friend Jeff warned me in 1975 that Jimmy Carter's tax proposals would eliminate my home mortgage interest tax deductions, I was skeptical. So was congress. Took it off my taxes this year for the 31st year in a row.

Being so deep into Tulsa culture has narrowed your vision. Its time to come out of the closet Gas. Your no Libertarian. You hate Obama, you hate Hillary, but strangely McCain isn't mentioned much but with some reverence. Perhaps you think he's conservative too? Pish, posh.

Don't be silly.  You know that 99% of the programs Obama and Hillary are proposing have absolutely no basis in reality and will never happen.  They are just bribery for entitlement votes.

As for McCain, he is far too fiscally liberal and socially conservative for me, he represents very little of what I believe in, but he is simply the lesser of 3 evils.  He too has programs, but most are based on economic growth rather than increased taxation and distribution of wealth.

I have no idea how or why you brought up Jimmy Carter.  There is usually consensus on both the right and left that he was the biggest failure we have ever had for a leader, and he continues to undermine his country even after his administration.  He almost created another depression.  He refused to take serious action against Iran during the Ayatollah's revolution and we were thrown into agreements with OPEC that we will only recover from when we eliminate the laws that limit our own production.  In essence, much of our current fuel problems are still the fault of this man!

Then he allowed hostages to be kept by Iran for over a year!  All he would authorize was a minimal failed attempt (eagle claw) that killed 8 Marines because they were not allowed any military backup.  

He was talk, talk, talk.  Ronald Regan threatened Iran with Swift and devastating action once he was inaugurated if the hostages were not released.  On fear of US action in the region, Algeria rushed an agreement between Iran and the US, and the hostages were released minutes after Regan's swearing in.  That was the end of the Talk Era.  Power was restored to the leadership of the US.  

I don't know of anyone Dem, Repub, or Libertarian that would defend Carter.  Most just want to forget.  Nearly all of his policies were ineffective and caused a great deal of damage to our country.  Don't use him as an example.  

I didn't even mention his policy on the Soviets and Afghanistan that can be traced as the cause of much of the instability in that region that we are involved in now.  Total inaction!

And. . . Stop insulting Tulsa!  If you hate it so much, move!

I'm glad I make you smile though!  []  I try to pump sunshine every day!

[waterboy]

You're not any better at pumping sunshine than you are at rewriting history. I can smell a native Tulsan by their air of arrogance. You grew up believing that indoctrination and education are one and the same. And that is the real insult to Tulsa. By not seeing and questioning your own suppositions and what the frame of reference is they came from you have no problem swallowing the political crap you just vomited. You are exposed as a typical cloistered, suburban style, Republican in the greatest Tulsa tradition. Oil, real estate development, law and religion are the framework from which attitudes are formed here. And you are the result.

I considered answering your fictional recreation of the Carter administration, line by line, but really, what's the use? Its partisan crap at best and you wouldn't consider changing a word of it. Suffice it to say BushII will displace him as top of the list in anyone's top ten of failed, inept, incompetent presidential leadership.

Torn down any good historic buildings lately?

[Gaspar]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

You're not any better at pumping sunshine than you are at rewriting history. I can smell a native Tulsan by their air of arrogance. You grew up believing that indoctrination and education are one and the same. And that is the real insult to Tulsa. By not seeing and questioning your own suppositions and what the frame of reference is they came from you have no problem swallowing the political crap you just vomited. You are exposed as a typical cloistered, suburban style, Republican in the greatest Tulsa tradition. Oil, real estate development, law and religion are the framework from which attitudes are formed here. And you are the result.

I considered answering your fictional recreation of the Carter administration, line by line, but really, what's the use? Its partisan crap at best and you wouldn't consider changing a word of it. Suffice it to say BushII will displace him as top of the list in anyone's top ten of failed, inept, incompetent presidential leadership.

Torn down any good historic buildings lately?

Sorry you are so unhappy.  Your view of Tulsa is really poor.  I think this is one of the best cities in the country to live in, and I have lived in several.  

You are correct that Tulsa has shaped my political views, as well as my views on family, and business.  My life is happy and I give Tulsa quite a bit of credit for that.  I have children and live within 2 miles of my parents and siblings.  

As a family we participate in as many volunteer organizations as we can to help our community and the people in it.  My friends and co-workers are from every place and every walk of life you can imagine.  I see myself surrounded by diversity.

Having lived in San Diego, St. Louis and Oklahoma City, Tulsa is exceptionally friendly and affordable to all people.  I take every chance I can to sing the praises of Tulsa and promote it to the people and businesses I serve.  

Forums like this, or even your local bar serve as wonderful places for discussion about what's wrong and right about our community.  But from a political standpoint, I find that most successful communities lean towards conservative values.  That's just simply the way it works and I know it must be frustrating for some.

If you review communities that are growing as opposed to communities that are shrinking, you typically find that the influx takes place in the more conservative cities where financial freedom, civil freedom, and business growth are encouraged.  Lower taxes and less government regulation always promotes growth and prosperity.  There's just no way of getting around that.

Even when it comes to countries, liberal policy simply does not work.  France has been on the verge of fiscal collapse.  They just announced that they are taking emergency steps to lower taxes and save their economy.  

It's not that Liberal philosophies are flawed, it's that people are flawed!  Most people have the internal belief that they are different, special, and capable of great things.  They express this through their desire to succeed, and their individual definitions of success.  What a wonderful flaw!

When Liberal philosophy attempts to punish success, or elevate mediocrity, through taxation, regulation, and sometimes education, most people will flee that situation.

The greatest thing about sharing your success is that you have the freedom to choose who you share with.  Your expertise, your time, your money, and your soul are all things that you may exercise freedom over.  Wether conscious or unconscious, people will attempt to flee a system that takes from them to give to others without choice.  It's as simple as that.

No!  It's not fair.  The only fair thing in life is freedom and your ability to exercise it.  Community, government, religion, and even nature are incapable of being fair.  All they represent is FORCE.



What is freedom? Freedom is the right to choose; the right to create for yourself the alternative of choice. Without the responsibility and exercise of choice a man is not a man but a member, an instrument, a thing. – Archibald Macleish (1882-1982)


Government is not reason; it is not eloquence; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. – George Washington

[RecycleMichael]

This struggle between water(boy) and gas(par) is making it muggy for the rest of us.

It is not the heat, but the humility.

[Gaspar]

I will give truce.  I thought it was a good discussion.  WB makes some good points.  I appreciate his willingness to debate them.

[FOTD]

"If you hate it move" is such a weak argument.

"Wherever you go, there you are...."

[waterboy]

No truce necessary. I love Tulsa too. But we don't all see her in the same way. After having spent most of my life here I feel comfortable in noting the hypocrisy, irony and provincialism so easily found here. Its a gift. Yet something keeps me here. Maybe it is the struggle to open the eyes of those who cannot see what I see! Talk about hubris.

I suppose Canada and the Scandinavian countries didn't make your list of Liberal societies that have flourished, along with Minnesota of course. And the real irony of your statement is that America was founded on the writings of John Locke and other renaissance gentry who were the original Liberals. His writings were well known to the signers of the Declaration. Locke and others were often imprisoned for championing the very principals we cherish.

Anyway the thread is about VP's. I see no real gain from signing a philosphical opposite to a ticket. Historically, Kennedy/LBJ is the only winner there I can remember.

[USRufnex]

quote:Originally posted by Gaspar

When you subsidize poverty and failure, you get more of both. – James Dale Davidson, National Taxpayers Union

The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to the point where it becomes stronger than the democratic state itself. That is in essence fascism: ownership of the government by an individual, by a group or any controlling private power. - FDR

James Dale Davidson is a greedy, corrupt  little Republican propagandist slimebucket traitor who should be in jail after making tons of $$$ from fraudulant offshore penny stocks. - USRufnex

quote:Originally posted by Gaspar

Capitalism without failure is like religion without sin. Bankruptcies and losses concentrate the mind on prudent behavior. – Allan H. Meltzer

"It's the same looser laissez-faire ideology that produced the Great Depression. The free market is a wonderful thing, but it functions well only within a nest of law and regulation. When those who are regulated by the government buy the government, the people get screwed."  Molly Ivins

quote:Originally posted by Gaspar

The economic miracle that has been the United States was not produced by socialized enterprises, by government-unon-industry cartels or by centralized economic planning. It was produced by private enterprises in a profit-and-loss system. And losses were at least as important in weeding out failures, as profits in fostering successes. Let government succor failures, and we shall be headed for stagnation and decline. – Milton Friedman

Why don't the convservative elite like right wing economist Milton Friedman get taken to task the same way the so-called "liberal elite" are demonized...

"The high rate of unemployment among teenagers, and especially black teenagers, is both a scandal and a serious source of social unrest. Yet it is largely a result of minimum wage laws. We regard the minimum wage law as one of the most, if not the most, antiblack laws on the statute books." - Milton Friedman

So hey.... in the NINE years and three months from 1981 to 1990, how did the minimum wage freeze benefit teenagers, "especially black teenagers" or other low wage workers???... how 'bout that other attempt to undermine the minimum wage in this past decade?

http://www.cbpp.org/6-20-06mw.htm

The lack of action on the minimum wage has led to a dramatic erosion in its value.

The minimum wage now equals only 31 percent of the average wage for private sector, nonsupervisory workers.  This is the lowest share since at least the end of World War II.
Since September 1997, the purchasing power of the minimum wage has deteriorated by 20 percent.  After adjusting for inflation, the value of the minimum wage is at its lowest level since 1955.
The decline in the value of the minimum wage is part and parcel of a disturbing feature of the recovery from the 2001 recession:  its failure to significantly improve the well-being of most workers.  Instead, the benefits of our impressive productivity growth rates have largely flowed to those at the top of the income and wealth scale.

BUT KEEP TAKIN UP FOR AMERICA'S TRUST FUND BABIES AND THEIR SPECIAL RIGHTS... []

[Gaspar]

Oh! Boy!

[TulsaFan-inTexas]

quote:Originally posted by joiei

quote:Originally posted by Gaspar

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

quote:Originally posted by Gaspar

quote:Originally posted by FOTD

Colin Powell....That would do it.

That would be a great ticket.  Liberal Obama and Conservitive Powell.  Would never happen, but if it did, it would be a freight train.

Would be especially interesting if Obama was liberal and Powell was conservative. They are both pretty moderate by objective standards. Of course by Tulsa perspectives you are right.

You want liberal put Ted Kennedy on the ticket. You want conservative match him with Inhofe. Now that's an freight train wreck!

Perhaps you are right, by Tulsa standards.  Obama is averaging 10 billion in new promised programs per speech.  He's at about 600,000,000,000 in new programs now, and by November he may reach 1,000,000,000,000 in nanny-state promises.

He's almost doubled the spending that Hillary promised, and she is considered significantly liberal.  It's hard to compare him to Kennedy, unless you compare his published opinion on most bills.  Kennedy voted over the last couple of years on a significant body of legislation.  Obama has registered a "NOT VOTING" position on most bills.  But, Obama's published opinions match Ted's almost exactly.

So if Ted is your barometer of "Liberal" than you should be happy that Mr. Obama is right there with him!. . . Just not in attendance for the vote.  He's busy!

Oup!  I just noticed on my RSS feed that he just made a 10 billion dollar housing bailout commitment.

That must be today's 10 billion.  []

Does anyone really believe he's going to be able to spend like this?

Pander PANDER pander pan pan Pander.

Make all the jokes you want.  No one group can spend like the current bunch of Republicans.  I doubt that Democrats can even come close to the spending levels of the Bush/Cheney conglomerate.  They have already spent my kids education funds and my retirement.  And they are still in office.

From a life-long Republican, unfortunately you are entirely correct.

[bugo]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

Anyway the thread is about VP's. I see no real gain from signing a philosphical opposite to a ticket. Historically, Kennedy/LBJ is the only winner there I can remember.

And we all know what a disaster the LBJ presidency was.

[rwarn17588]

quote:Originally posted by bugo

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

Anyway the thread is about VP's. I see no real gain from signing a philosphical opposite to a ticket. Historically, Kennedy/LBJ is the only winner there I can remember.

And we all know what a disaster the LBJ presidency was.

Which doesn't knock the "team of rivals" concept so much as the fact LBJ was a Texan.

We've had three Texans in the White House, and all of them have sucked.

No more 'Horns in the Oval Office, please.

[FOTD]

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/07/01/obama_met_with_powell_in_june.html

Obama Met with Powell in June

[FOTD]

quote:Originally posted by FOTD

Colin Powell....That would do it.

INTERESTING!

http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=1530

"UTICA, New York - As the Presidential candidates ponder potential running mates, a new Zogby International telephone poll shows many voters would be more inclined to vote for Democratic Sen. Barack Obama if he were to select retired four-star general and former Secretary of State Colin Powell as his running-mate."[8D]