Lay Off My Wife

[RecycleMichael]

I am not white, in fact, more pink than anything else.

[Chicken Little]

I'm still enjoying this thread, but it has devolved.  FOTD, I hereby request that you rename this thread "Lay off my wife, please."

Henny Youngman was much cooler than us.

[Gaspar]

quote:Originally posted by FOTD

Read, read, read. It's all over the place. How about beating off the Clittons? What type of character did that take? He assembled an amazing strategy with great people and a positive attitude.

Hmm.  I can't stomach the Huffington Post, and Air America (XM channel 167) uses too much profanity for me to listen to at work.  We do Saturday mornings at Border's, so I will pick up a copy of his book and read through it.  

I really would like to know more about him, but from what I've already learned. I'm just not impressed.  He seems to be a child's candidate.  He reflects the naive nature of much of his constituency.  

I've heard all  of his televised speeches and I keep looking for him to actually say something, to make some comment that makes me go "wow, that's a good idea" but while what he says is beautiful and full of rhyme and excellent canter, it carries only a very basic message.  I can't get anything from that, yet people in the audience are fainting and cheering when he blows his nose.

I think his speaking ability gives him the future possibility of being a great statesman, but his current economic and political standing is what I believe to be destructive to a free market economy.  

We all have different personal goals that relate to our choices for a leader.  I am personally reliant on a very free market minimally regulated system of government inviting to entrepreneurship, development, and the birth of new business.  This is why I am a Libertarian and therefore typically support candidates that advocate the conservative application of government.

So far Mr. Obama, does not promote what I believe in.  New programs and the regulation of medicine, free-trade restrictions, new government bureaucracies and programs to limit competition and compensation, are not friendly to me.  

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by Gaspar

quote:Originally posted by FOTD

Read, read, read. It's all over the place. How about beating off the Clittons? What type of character did that take? He assembled an amazing strategy with great people and a positive attitude.

Hmm.  I can't stomach the Huffington Post, and Air America (XM channel 167) uses too much profanity for me to listen to at work.  We do Saturday mornings at Border's, so I will pick up a copy of his book and read through it.  

I really would like to know more about him, but from what I've already learned. I'm just not impressed.  He seems to be a child's candidate.  He reflects the naive nature of much of his constituency.  

I've heard all  of his televised speeches and I keep looking for him to actually say something, to make some comment that makes me go "wow, that's a good idea" but while what he says is beautiful and full of rhyme and excellent canter, it carries only a very basic message.  I can't get anything from that, yet people in the audience are fainting and cheering when he blows his nose.

I think his speaking ability gives him the future possibility of being a great statesman, but his current economic and political standing is what I believe to be destructive to a free market economy.  

We all have different personal goals that relate to our choices for a leader.  I am personally reliant on a very free market minimally regulated system of government inviting to entrepreneurship, development, and the birth of new business.  This is why I am a Libertarian and therefore typically support candidates that advocate the conservative application of government.

So far Mr. Obama, does not promote what I believe in.  New programs and the regulation of medicine, free-trade restrictions, new government bureaucracies and programs to limit competition and compensation, are not friendly to me.  

Sounds like you're describing every successful politician who ever ran for office. Details are not for campaigns. You get skewered with them. When a candidate like Ron Paul provides them, you call him a whining sissy!! So a candidate projects a personality, a manner of decisionmaking and an aura of competence. People misread Bush and thought he was the plain speaking, honest, competent Texas oilman that you could have a beer with and talk the common sense that the country needed. He wasn't, and never was, but it got him elected.

I would guess you suffer from the red barn complex. The color red absorbs all other colors but reflects only red. You go looking for a red barn with a blue flashlight and you'll never find it. Switch colors and go looking again. Of course, if you don't know what a barn looks like...

Amazing how different Libertarians can be. It must be one of those giant umbrellas that cover everone. Like living in Ok and telling people you have a little bit of Indian blood. You aren't the same Libertarian CannonFodder is who seems to see all sides of each candidate or issue. That is something I respect. The one thing many of you do have in common is a truly self serving attitude of government. Free trade works well for you so it must be good for the whole country. Pretty limiting attitude. And for heavens sake man, health care is in crisis. It is a system worthy of comparing to Social Security that you so despise. As much as we brag about technological breakthroughs in America we offer the worst health care among our peers. How does your conservative outlook benefit the country on that stage? Unless maybe once again, it benefits you personally.

I grow weary of hearing how Obama supporters are childlike, naive and gullible. Its pathetic if you have to resort to elitist condescending bs like that. I still remember your ilk from my youth when McGovern supporters were described as college educated, sandal wearing, bike riding intellectuals. Probably describes you now doesn't it? But at the time that was a perjorative description believe it or not. As for me, a college educated, kayak paddling, pragmatist jogger, I look at the failure of conservative politics of the last decade and ask myself if I want more of the same just because the latest candidate isn't a perfect match to my politics and the answer is easy. No.

[custosnox]

I will make sure I do a lot of research on the canidates before election day comes.  My biggest dilema right now is this, I am very pro-military (please don't confuse this with pro-war), and I don't want to see the military weakened by Hillary or Obama, but at the same time, our canidate that would push military, McCain, doesn't come off to me as the best answer to lead our nation, especially with our economy the way it is right now.  Now I'm not saying that Hillary or Obama are anti-military, but I don't think either of them are ready to keep a military readiness level that I think we, well, I won't say need, but perhaps that we should have.  And for the Hillary supporters, I don't think I would ever vote for her, and this is mainly because (and I will admit, has little to do with actual facts) she just rubs me the wrong way.  There is just something about her that really makes me afraid of what will happen if she is voted in.  It's one of those things that you just can't get yourself past.  I could be wrong, but it's there for me.

[we vs us]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

Amazing how different Libertarians can be. It must be one of those giant umbrellas that cover everone. Like living in Ok and telling people you have a little bit of Indian blood. You aren't the same Libertarian CannonFodder is who seems to see all sides of each candidate or issue. That is something I respect. The one thing many of you do have in common is a truly self serving attitude of government. Free trade works well for you so it must be good for the whole country. Pretty limiting attitude. And for heavens sake man, health care is in crisis. It is a system worthy of comparing to Social Security that you so despise. As much as we brag about technological breakthroughs in America we offer the worst health care among our peers. How does your conservative outlook benefit the country on that stage? Unless maybe once again, it benefits you personally.

+1, Waterboy.  Nicely put.

[Conan71]

I think knowing as much as possible about a first lady is real important these days.  Who drove the Clinton health care plan?  We got a two-fer with the Clintons, and I sense Michelle Obama would likely be more influential in her husband's White House than Laura Bush, though maybe not as much as HC was.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

I think knowing as much as possible about a first lady is real important these days.  Who drove the Clinton health care plan?  We got a two-fer with the Clintons, and I sense Michelle Obama would likely be more influential in her husband's White House than Laura Bush, though maybe not as much as HC was.

Yeah, I agree. If there is a sense of activism from a spouse, the country deserves to know but it doesn't seem as important as the candidate themselves. The Clinton twofer was not the norm. Eleanor Roosevelt had an impact on FDR and was able to accomplish much of her own agenda due to the proximity to power but in the end his views prevailed. Going after Michelle seems to be a way of needling him. It will not be effective.

[Gaspar]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

quote:Originally posted by Gaspar

quote:Originally posted by FOTD

Read, read, read. It's all over the place. How about beating off the Clittons? What type of character did that take? He assembled an amazing strategy with great people and a positive attitude.

Hmm.  I can't stomach the Huffington Post, and Air America (XM channel 167) uses too much profanity for me to listen to at work.  We do Saturday mornings at Border's, so I will pick up a copy of his book and read through it.  

I really would like to know more about him, but from what I've already learned. I'm just not impressed.  He seems to be a child's candidate.  He reflects the naive nature of much of his constituency.  

I've heard all  of his televised speeches and I keep looking for him to actually say something, to make some comment that makes me go "wow, that's a good idea" but while what he says is beautiful and full of rhyme and excellent canter, it carries only a very basic message.  I can't get anything from that, yet people in the audience are fainting and cheering when he blows his nose.

I think his speaking ability gives him the future possibility of being a great statesman, but his current economic and political standing is what I believe to be destructive to a free market economy.  

We all have different personal goals that relate to our choices for a leader.  I am personally reliant on a very free market minimally regulated system of government inviting to entrepreneurship, development, and the birth of new business.  This is why I am a Libertarian and therefore typically support candidates that advocate the conservative application of government.

So far Mr. Obama, does not promote what I believe in.  New programs and the regulation of medicine, free-trade restrictions, new government bureaucracies and programs to limit competition and compensation, are not friendly to me.  

Sounds like you're describing every successful politician who ever ran for office. Details are not for campaigns. You get skewered with them. When a candidate like Ron Paul provides them, you call him a whining sissy!! So a candidate projects a personality, a manner of decisionmaking and an aura of competence. People misread Bush and thought he was the plain speaking, honest, competent Texas oilman that you could have a beer with and talk the common sense that the country needed. He wasn't, and never was, but it got him elected.

I would guess you suffer from the red barn complex. The color red absorbs all other colors but reflects only red. You go looking for a red barn with a blue flashlight and you'll never find it. Switch colors and go looking again. Of course, if you don't know what a barn looks like...

Amazing how different Libertarians can be. It must be one of those giant umbrellas that cover everone. Like living in Ok and telling people you have a little bit of Indian blood. You aren't the same Libertarian CannonFodder is who seems to see all sides of each candidate or issue. That is something I respect. The one thing many of you do have in common is a truly self serving attitude of government. Free trade works well for you so it must be good for the whole country. Pretty limiting attitude. And for heavens sake man, health care is in crisis. It is a system worthy of comparing to Social Security that you so despise. As much as we brag about technological breakthroughs in America we offer the worst health care among our peers. How does your conservative outlook benefit the country on that stage? Unless maybe once again, it benefits you personally.

I grow weary of hearing how Obama supporters are childlike, naive and gullible. Its pathetic if you have to resort to elitist condescending bs like that. I still remember your ilk from my youth when McGovern supporters were described as college educated, sandal wearing, bike riding intellectuals. Probably describes you now doesn't it? But at the time that was a perjorative description believe it or not. As for me, a college educated, kayak paddling, pragmatist jogger, I look at the failure of conservative politics of the last decade and ask myself if I want more of the same just because the latest candidate isn't a perfect match to my politics and the answer is easy. No.

Then it seems you have found your candidate.  I never said Obama supporters were gullible.  They are simply not asking the questions they should be.  They are following for the sake of following.  I understand your ache for change, but not simply for the sake of change.  

Healthcare is in crisis because of government regulation, and now that same system wants to fix it with more regulation.  Great!

Help me to see the other side of Mr. Obama.  Why is it when ever I ask for explanations, I get quips, demonistic nick naming, or playground language.

1. Tell me how he is going to fix healthcare and maintain an attractive environment for research, development, and medical practice.  How is he going to satisfy the needs of the patient without limiting their choice and diminishing care.

2. Tell me how he is going to bring the troops home without creating a total political collapse in Iraq, that will avoid solidifying, in the minds of other countries and terrorist organizations that the, the US is a weak and beatable adversary?

When the collapse takes place how is he going to keep Iran and Syria from creating an Islamic state, using Iraq as the keystone to leverage and invade the other countries in the region that they have already vowed to destroy?

3. Because of his loose campaign statement about opening talks with state sponsors of terrorism, how is he going to maintain relations with Israel, a state that already wants nothing to do with him because of his remarks.  In many instances we (the US) is the only thing that has held them from totally annihilating the Palestinians, and launching devastating attacks on Iran.  They are ready to go to war.  We hold the cork to the genie's lamp.

4. Domestically, with a half a trillion in new programs that will cost additional billions every year, how much will he need to raise taxes.  By only raising taxes on the wealthiest of americans (basically any business that files under an LLC) how is he going to then combat the reduced jobs created by eliminating income to these businesses.  As this slows economic expansion, what will be needed to fend of recession?   Is this really the right thing to do during a time of increasing national debt?  Since it is proven that lowering taxes on businesses actually increases tax revenue due to the economic expansion that is a result, why would he even propose such a thing?

5. Finally, everything in his speeches has to do with taking from one group of americans and giving to another, or restriction of trade, or AID of some form or another.  Where is the talk of encouraging innovation and economic development?  The government doesn't build business, people do.  

Even Hillary has addressed and answered some of these questions.  She realized that she needed to change her position on some of her early convictions based on the Political or Economic logic of the real world.  Obama has not.

You want converts?  You want people that view both the red and the blue?  Stop making one side emotionally based, and the other side logically based.  I will flock to logic, as will most conservatives and libertarians, even if all of the policies don't match up perfectly.

You are absolutely correct, Libertarians are a big mixed blend of different people with different backgrounds, beliefs, sexual preferences, addictions, hobbies, skin colors, languages and political histories, but the one thing we all share is the ability to separate logic from emotion and the understanding of the ability of individual rights.

I believe that every individual is naturally entitled to do as he pleases with himself and the fruits of his labor, so far as it in no way interferes with any other men's rights. – Abraham Lincoln

[Gaspar]

Is he reading my posts?

Mr. Obama has changed his mind.  Iran is no longer a "Tiny Threat", they are now a "Grave Threat."  He must have gotten hold of a newspaper or something.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121130545086407543.html?mod=rss_opinion_main

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by Gaspar

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

quote:Originally posted by Gaspar

quote:Originally posted by FOTD

Read, read, read. It's all over the place. How about beating off the Clittons? What type of character did that take? He assembled an amazing strategy with great people and a positive attitude.

Hmm.  I can't stomach the Huffington Post, and Air America (XM channel 167) uses too much profanity for me to listen to at work.  We do Saturday mornings at Border's, so I will pick up a copy of his book and read through it.  

I really would like to know more about him, but from what I've already learned. I'm just not impressed.  He seems to be a child's candidate.  He reflects the naive nature of much of his constituency.  

I've heard all  of his televised speeches and I keep looking for him to actually say something, to make some comment that makes me go "wow, that's a good idea" but while what he says is beautiful and full of rhyme and excellent canter, it carries only a very basic message.  I can't get anything from that, yet people in the audience are fainting and cheering when he blows his nose.

I think his speaking ability gives him the future possibility of being a great statesman, but his current economic and political standing is what I believe to be destructive to a free market economy.  

We all have different personal goals that relate to our choices for a leader.  I am personally reliant on a very free market minimally regulated system of government inviting to entrepreneurship, development, and the birth of new business.  This is why I am a Libertarian and therefore typically support candidates that advocate the conservative application of government.

So far Mr. Obama, does not promote what I believe in.  New programs and the regulation of medicine, free-trade restrictions, new government bureaucracies and programs to limit competition and compensation, are not friendly to me.  

Sounds like you're describing every successful politician who ever ran for office. Details are not for campaigns. You get skewered with them. When a candidate like Ron Paul provides them, you call him a whining sissy!! So a candidate projects a personality, a manner of decisionmaking and an aura of competence. People misread Bush and thought he was the plain speaking, honest, competent Texas oilman that you could have a beer with and talk the common sense that the country needed. He wasn't, and never was, but it got him elected.

I would guess you suffer from the red barn complex. The color red absorbs all other colors but reflects only red. You go looking for a red barn with a blue flashlight and you'll never find it. Switch colors and go looking again. Of course, if you don't know what a barn looks like...

Amazing how different Libertarians can be. It must be one of those giant umbrellas that cover everone. Like living in Ok and telling people you have a little bit of Indian blood. You aren't the same Libertarian CannonFodder is who seems to see all sides of each candidate or issue. That is something I respect. The one thing many of you do have in common is a truly self serving attitude of government. Free trade works well for you so it must be good for the whole country. Pretty limiting attitude. And for heavens sake man, health care is in crisis. It is a system worthy of comparing to Social Security that you so despise. As much as we brag about technological breakthroughs in America we offer the worst health care among our peers. How does your conservative outlook benefit the country on that stage? Unless maybe once again, it benefits you personally.

I grow weary of hearing how Obama supporters are childlike, naive and gullible. Its pathetic if you have to resort to elitist condescending bs like that. I still remember your ilk from my youth when McGovern supporters were described as college educated, sandal wearing, bike riding intellectuals. Probably describes you now doesn't it? But at the time that was a perjorative description believe it or not. As for me, a college educated, kayak paddling, pragmatist jogger, I look at the failure of conservative politics of the last decade and ask myself if I want more of the same just because the latest candidate isn't a perfect match to my politics and the answer is easy. No.

Then it seems you have found your candidate.  I never said Obama supporters were gullible.  They are simply not asking the questions they should be.  They are following for the sake of following.  I understand your ache for change, but not simply for the sake of change.  

Healthcare is in crisis because of government regulation, and now that same system wants to fix it with more regulation.  Great!

Help me to see the other side of Mr. Obama.  Why is it when ever I ask for explanations, I get quips, demonistic nick naming, or playground language.

1. Tell me how he is going to fix healthcare and maintain an attractive environment for research, development, and medical practice.  How is he going to satisfy the needs of the patient without limiting their choice and diminishing care.

2. Tell me how he is going to bring the troops home without creating a total political collapse in Iraq, that will avoid solidifying, in the minds of other countries and terrorist organizations that the, the US is a weak and beatable adversary?

When the collapse takes place how is he going to keep Iran and Syria from creating an Islamic state, using Iraq as the keystone to leverage and invade the other countries in the region that they have already vowed to destroy?

3. Because of his loose campaign statement about opening talks with state sponsors of terrorism, how is he going to maintain relations with Israel, a state that already wants nothing to do with him because of his remarks.  In many instances we (the US) is the only thing that has held them from totally annihilating the Palestinians, and launching devastating attacks on Iran.  They are ready to go to war.  We hold the cork to the genie's lamp.

4. Domestically, with a half a trillion in new programs that will cost additional billions every year, how much will he need to raise taxes.  By only raising taxes on the wealthiest of americans (basically any business that files under an LLC) how is he going to then combat the reduced jobs created by eliminating income to these businesses.  As this slows economic expansion, what will be needed to fend of recession?   Is this really the right thing to do during a time of increasing national debt?  Since it is proven that lowering taxes on businesses actually increases tax revenue due to the economic expansion that is a result, why would he even propose such a thing?

5. Finally, everything in his speeches has to do with taking from one group of americans and giving to another, or restriction of trade, or AID of some form or another.  Where is the talk of encouraging innovation and economic development?  The government doesn't build business, people do.  

Even Hillary has addressed and answered some of these questions.  She realized that she needed to change her position on some of her early convictions based on the Political or Economic logic of the real world.  Obama has not.

You want converts?  You want people that view both the red and the blue?  Stop making one side emotionally based, and the other side logically based.  I will flock to logic, as will most conservatives and libertarians, even if all of the policies don't match up perfectly.

You are absolutely correct, Libertarians are a big mixed blend of different people with different backgrounds, beliefs, sexual preferences, addictions, hobbies, skin colors, languages and political histories, but the one thing we all share is the ability to separate logic from emotion and the understanding of the ability of individual rights.

I believe that every individual is naturally entitled to do as he pleases with himself and the fruits of his labor, so far as it in no way interferes with any other men's rights. – Abraham Lincoln

I think I'm having my first internet political forum crush. [:I]

Good points Gaspar.  I'm a registered GOP, but find my views are much more Libertarian myself.

I haven't seen nor heard a whole lot out of this guy that leads me to believe he is the savant his supporters have made him out to be.  Eloquent speaker, yes.  And he is every bit as much bought and paid for by a political machine just as McCain is.  The one that paid for Obama scares me a whole lot more.

[Gaspar]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71


I think I'm having my first internet political forum crush. [:I]

Good points Gaspar.  I'm a registered GOP, but find my views are much more Libertarian myself.

I haven't seen nor heard a whole lot out of this guy that leads me to believe he is the savant his supporters have made him out to be.  Eloquent speaker, yes.  And he is every bit as much bought and paid for by a political machine just as McCain is.  The one that paid for Obama scares me a whole lot more.

Thanks Conan.  

My point is that I can't understand why Obama supporters have no concept of what he is proposing and they are OK with that?  Hillary is a known entity, so I fully understand her supporters. She has made very clear points that I understand and disagree with.  She is a true political candidate.

Obama is simply a personality.  He's done nothing to clarify his positions in a logical manner, and when you engage any of his supporters, you simply get more emotion and fanatic allegiance.  This scares me.  History if full of examples of what happens when a Cult of Personality rises to power.

Do not Godwin me!

[waterboy]

A quick read of your post hasn't shown much to influence me. I have to go to work but I promise I will respond as I think you have made assumptions and assertions that simply have evolved from company talking points. For instance the medical industry is not in crisis because of government regulation. Puhleeze...That just simply is not true. Talk to a doctor about insurance companies or a hospital administrator about uninsured patients.

Yeah, we're all Libertarians to some extent. We're all Indians too. I'm 1/16 Cherokee but for some reason the tribe doesn't care!

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

A quick read of your post hasn't shown much to influence me. I have to go to work but I promise I will respond as I think you have made assumptions and assertions that simply have evolved from company talking points. For instance the medical industry is not in crisis because of government regulation. Puhleeze...That just simply is not true. Talk to a doctor about insurance companies or a hospital administrator about uninsured patients.

Yeah, we're all Libertarians to some extent. We're all Indians too. I'm 1/16 Cherokee but for some reason the tribe doesn't care!

I'm at least 1/16 from the Whinealot Tribe from down on the Crymea River.  []

[we vs us]

quote:Originally posted by Gaspar

My point is that I can't understand why Obama supporters have no concept of what he is proposing and they are OK with that?  

And I really don't know why you believe that.  Why would Obama supporters know less about Obama than Hillary supporters of Hillary?  Or Mccain's people of McCain? Help me understand, because your characterization of Obama supporters -- especially en masse, like we're legions of screaming teenage rock groupies, or zombified morons who blindly follow where he leads -- are neither correct nor especially fair to those of us who are making adult decisions about how we vote.

I'm cool acknowledging that he's got the Beatles-playing-Wembley thing down. He can bring in the crowds and he's one of the most talented public speakers we've had in a generation.  But are you really saying that the stadium glamor completely cancels out the logical choice that millions of us have made? And HOW long has this primary season lasted again? These are some of the best vetted candidates the Democratic party has ever had, if you measure by time-in-primary.  

All of this is to say that, I think your premise is disingenuous.  Obama voters aren't naive and ignorant.  We're some of the best informed Democrats in a long long while.  

BTW, if you're looking for me to tick off his proposals and whether I do, do not, or somewhat support them, you'll have to look elsewhere.