Lay Off My Wife

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by we vs us

quote:Originally posted by Gaspar

My point is that I can't understand why Obama supporters have no concept of what he is proposing and they are OK with that?  

And I really don't know why you believe that.  Why would Obama supporters know less about Obama than Hillary supporters of Hillary?  Or Mccain's people of McCain? Help me understand, because your characterization of Obama supporters -- especially en masse, like we're legions of screaming teenage rock groupies, or zombified morons who blindly follow where he leads -- are neither correct nor especially fair to those of us who are making adult decisions about how we vote.

I'm cool acknowledging that he's got the Beatles-playing-Wembley thing down. He can bring in the crowds and he's one of the most talented public speakers we've had in a generation.  But are you really saying that the stadium glamor completely cancels out the logical choice that millions of us have made? And HOW long has this primary season lasted again? These are some of the best vetted candidates the Democratic party has ever had, if you measure by time-in-primary.  

All of this is to say that, I think your premise is disingenuous.  Obama voters aren't naive and ignorant.  We're some of the best informed Democrats in a long long while.  

BTW, if you're looking for me to tick off his proposals and whether I do, do not, or somewhat support them, you'll have to look elsewhere.

Thanks, Wevus. There's some logic for you Gassy. Keep implying that Obama supporters are all emotion and no logic, prop your feet up, light your stogie, hoist a Cabernet and do what you faux Libertarians always do. Act like you're intellectual, independent, conservatives with open minds...then vote for the Republican. That's how our country got Bush for 8years. That's also why he only visited around election time to rake in the donations.

1. Insurance companies and pharmaceutical lobbyists are the problem with the medical industry. If you don't understand that, and apparently you didn't, then logic escapes you. Do you know any doctors or administrators who think their problems stem from too much oppressive government regulation? What regulations? No, its uninsured patients, malpractice insurance, drug companies co-opting the integrity of the system and inflating their drug costs that are the culprits. The collapsing economy will force all the players in the game to the table eventually to create a workable plan. If you think no government involvement is necessary then logic is the red barn and you have a blue flashlight.

2. What? You want peace with honor? Thirty years too late for that one. You actually think they will hold us in less esteem if we recognize a mistake, secure our troops and continue bringing them home? Why? You think it will make us less safe at home? Why? They are pleased to be holding us at bay and using their own people as bait to slowly drain our resources and divide ourselves. Meanwhile the rest of the world continues on its way using their resources to whip us in the global market while Bush-lite beats the drums for going after Iran with some of the same logic (they may have nukes, they are aiding the terrists) they used to go into Iraq.

Is that the Libertarian position? Don't mess with our own people but use our peoples resources against their will to go after other countries cause they may or may not continue their 1000 years or so of conquering each other? Smart stuff there. We can help them more by understanding that it was a mistake and one we can recover from without having to spend 100 years more there. Reagan pulled out of Lebanon after realizing the same thing.

3. Why do you swallow the "we hold the cork of the Israeli genie" stuff? Israel does just fine without our meddling. I remember when our great ally took one of our spy ships by force back in about 1967. They never apologized and it isn't common knowledge but they're our allies as long as we do what they can't. They like our aid and they bluster about their enemies but its not our efforts that keep them from genocide. There are other barns out there in the forest Gas. But you have to know that they exist. Europe is a player as well. But once again, why would a Libertarian want to take the resources of a predominantly Christian country that doesn't even understand the complexities of a Jewish homeland that separates and subjugates its residents and is divided itself as to how to solve the problems? His "loose talk" betrays your republicanism. He asserts and many in the rest of the world agree that you must engage in discourse with those assumed to be your enemies. Nixon spoke to China, Reagan spoke to Russia, and it seemed to work well.

And that's where your thinking starts to degrade into party talk. Big spender? No one outdoes the republicans...no one. Anti business, anti-entreprenuerial? Yeah, same ole stuff the conservatives have trotted out in every election.

You might note that Congress and the courts play a larger role in the direction of the country and such things as the reformation of health care than a president does. Before Bush there was a balance of the three. Now its king of the mountain.

Sorry, I'm not looking to convert anyone to Obama, and for sure not in a state that has suckled its children on a toxic formula of religion, anti-labor, anti-government, anti-public education, liberal hating conservatism that has kept them from seeing any other way of life since the mid sixties. Waste of time.

[Gaspar]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

quote:Originally posted by we vs us

quote:Originally posted by Gaspar

My point is that I can't understand why Obama supporters have no concept of what he is proposing and they are OK with that?  

And I really don't know why you believe that.  Why would Obama supporters know less about Obama than Hillary supporters of Hillary?  Or Mccain's people of McCain? Help me understand, because your characterization of Obama supporters -- especially en masse, like we're legions of screaming teenage rock groupies, or zombified morons who blindly follow where he leads -- are neither correct nor especially fair to those of us who are making adult decisions about how we vote.

I'm cool acknowledging that he's got the Beatles-playing-Wembley thing down. He can bring in the crowds and he's one of the most talented public speakers we've had in a generation.  But are you really saying that the stadium glamor completely cancels out the logical choice that millions of us have made? And HOW long has this primary season lasted again? These are some of the best vetted candidates the Democratic party has ever had, if you measure by time-in-primary.  

All of this is to say that, I think your premise is disingenuous.  Obama voters aren't naive and ignorant.  We're some of the best informed Democrats in a long long while.  

BTW, if you're looking for me to tick off his proposals and whether I do, do not, or somewhat support them, you'll have to look elsewhere.

Thanks, Wevus. There's some logic for you Gassy. Keep implying that Obama supporters are all emotion and no logic, prop your feet up, light your stogie, hoist a Cabernet and do what you faux Libertarians always do. Act like you're intellectual, independent, conservatives with open minds...then vote for the Republican. That's how our country got Bush for 8years. That's also why he only visited around election time to rake in the donations.

1. Insurance companies and pharmaceutical lobbyists are the problem with the medical industry. If you don't understand that, and apparently you didn't, then logic escapes you. Do you know any doctors or administrators who think their problems stem from too much oppressive government regulation? What regulations? No, its uninsured patients, malpractice insurance, drug companies co-opting the integrity of the system and inflating their drug costs that are the culprits. The collapsing economy will force all the players in the game to the table eventually to create a workable plan. If you think no government involvement is necessary then logic is the red barn and you have a blue flashlight.

2. What? You want peace with honor? Thirty years too late for that one. You actually think they will hold us in less esteem if we recognize a mistake, secure our troops and continue bringing them home? Why? You think it will make us less safe at home? Why? They are pleased to be holding us at bay and using their own people as bait to slowly drain our resources and divide ourselves. Meanwhile the rest of the world continues on its way using their resources to whip us in the global market while Bush-lite beats the drums for going after Iran with some of the same logic (they may have nukes, they are aiding the terrists) they used to go into Iraq.

Is that the Libertarian position? Don't mess with our own people but use our peoples resources against their will to go after other countries cause they may or may not continue their 1000 years or so of conquering each other? Smart stuff there. We can help them more by understanding that it was a mistake and one we can recover from without having to spend 100 years more there. Reagan pulled out of Lebanon after realizing the same thing.

3. Why do you swallow the "we hold the cork of the Israeli genie" stuff? Israel does just fine without our meddling. I remember when our great ally took one of our spy ships by force back in about 1967. They never apologized and it isn't common knowledge but they're our allies as long as we do what they can't. They like our aid and they bluster about their enemies but its not our efforts that keep them from genocide. There are other barns out there in the forest Gas. But you have to know that they exist. Europe is a player as well. But once again, why would a Libertarian want to take the resources of a predominantly Christian country that doesn't even understand the complexities of a Jewish homeland that separates and subjugates its residents and is divided itself as to how to solve the problems? His "loose talk" betrays your republicanism. He asserts and many in the rest of the world agree that you must engage in discourse with those assumed to be your enemies. Nixon spoke to China, Reagan spoke to Russia, and it seemed to work well.

And that's where your thinking starts to degrade into party talk. Big spender? No one outdoes the republicans...no one. Anti business, anti-entreprenuerial? Yeah, same ole stuff the conservatives have trotted out in every election.

You might note that Congress and the courts play a larger role in the direction of the country and such things as the reformation of health care than a president does. Before Bush there was a balance of the three. Now its king of the mountain.

Sorry, I'm not looking to convert anyone to Obama, and for sure not in a state that has suckled its children on a toxic formula of religion, anti-labor, anti-government, anti-public education, liberal hating conservatism that has kept them from seeing any other way of life since the mid sixties. Waste of time.

Thank you for taking a great deal of thought in formulating your answers, I can see that your political choices come from your passion.  I cannot debate that, nor do I care to.  While I respect your world view, I simply cannot agree with it.  I no longer wish to fuel your hatred.

I also have one less thing to criticize Obama for, he has now retracted his statements about talking to Iran and state sponsors of terror.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/may/22/barackobama.usforeignpolicy?gusrc=rss&feed=networkfront

He is learning, unfortunately he is still speaking before he understands, therefore he has to make these quiet retreats from his policies.  It doesn't really matter, at this point he can say anything and his cult will follow.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by Gaspar

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

quote:Originally posted by we vs us

quote:Originally posted by Gaspar

My point is that I can't understand why Obama supporters have no concept of what he is proposing and they are OK with that?  

And I really don't know why you believe that.  Why would Obama supporters know less about Obama than Hillary supporters of Hillary?  Or Mccain's people of McCain? Help me understand, because your characterization of Obama supporters -- especially en masse, like we're legions of screaming teenage rock groupies, or zombified morons who blindly follow where he leads -- are neither correct nor especially fair to those of us who are making adult decisions about how we vote.

I'm cool acknowledging that he's got the Beatles-playing-Wembley thing down. He can bring in the crowds and he's one of the most talented public speakers we've had in a generation.  But are you really saying that the stadium glamor completely cancels out the logical choice that millions of us have made? And HOW long has this primary season lasted again? These are some of the best vetted candidates the Democratic party has ever had, if you measure by time-in-primary.  

All of this is to say that, I think your premise is disingenuous.  Obama voters aren't naive and ignorant.  We're some of the best informed Democrats in a long long while.  

BTW, if you're looking for me to tick off his proposals and whether I do, do not, or somewhat support them, you'll have to look elsewhere.

Thanks, Wevus. There's some logic for you Gassy. Keep implying that Obama supporters are all emotion and no logic, prop your feet up, light your stogie, hoist a Cabernet and do what you faux Libertarians always do. Act like you're intellectual, independent, conservatives with open minds...then vote for the Republican. That's how our country got Bush for 8years. That's also why he only visited around election time to rake in the donations.

1. Insurance companies and pharmaceutical lobbyists are the problem with the medical industry. If you don't understand that, and apparently you didn't, then logic escapes you. Do you know any doctors or administrators who think their problems stem from too much oppressive government regulation? What regulations? No, its uninsured patients, malpractice insurance, drug companies co-opting the integrity of the system and inflating their drug costs that are the culprits. The collapsing economy will force all the players in the game to the table eventually to create a workable plan. If you think no government involvement is necessary then logic is the red barn and you have a blue flashlight.

2. What? You want peace with honor? Thirty years too late for that one. You actually think they will hold us in less esteem if we recognize a mistake, secure our troops and continue bringing them home? Why? You think it will make us less safe at home? Why? They are pleased to be holding us at bay and using their own people as bait to slowly drain our resources and divide ourselves. Meanwhile the rest of the world continues on its way using their resources to whip us in the global market while Bush-lite beats the drums for going after Iran with some of the same logic (they may have nukes, they are aiding the terrists) they used to go into Iraq.

Is that the Libertarian position? Don't mess with our own people but use our peoples resources against their will to go after other countries cause they may or may not continue their 1000 years or so of conquering each other? Smart stuff there. We can help them more by understanding that it was a mistake and one we can recover from without having to spend 100 years more there. Reagan pulled out of Lebanon after realizing the same thing.

3. Why do you swallow the "we hold the cork of the Israeli genie" stuff? Israel does just fine without our meddling. I remember when our great ally took one of our spy ships by force back in about 1967. They never apologized and it isn't common knowledge but they're our allies as long as we do what they can't. They like our aid and they bluster about their enemies but its not our efforts that keep them from genocide. There are other barns out there in the forest Gas. But you have to know that they exist. Europe is a player as well. But once again, why would a Libertarian want to take the resources of a predominantly Christian country that doesn't even understand the complexities of a Jewish homeland that separates and subjugates its residents and is divided itself as to how to solve the problems? His "loose talk" betrays your republicanism. He asserts and many in the rest of the world agree that you must engage in discourse with those assumed to be your enemies. Nixon spoke to China, Reagan spoke to Russia, and it seemed to work well.

And that's where your thinking starts to degrade into party talk. Big spender? No one outdoes the republicans...no one. Anti business, anti-entreprenuerial? Yeah, same ole stuff the conservatives have trotted out in every election.

You might note that Congress and the courts play a larger role in the direction of the country and such things as the reformation of health care than a president does. Before Bush there was a balance of the three. Now its king of the mountain.

Sorry, I'm not looking to convert anyone to Obama, and for sure not in a state that has suckled its children on a toxic formula of religion, anti-labor, anti-government, anti-public education, liberal hating conservatism that has kept them from seeing any other way of life since the mid sixties. Waste of time.

Thank you for taking a great deal of thought in formulating your answers, I can see that your political choices come from your passion.  I cannot debate that, nor do I care to.  While I respect your world view, I simply cannot agree with it.  I no longer wish to fuel your hatred.

I also have one less thing to criticize Obama for, he has now retracted his statements about talking to Iran and state sponsors of terror.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/may/22/barackobama.usforeignpolicy?gusrc=rss&feed=networkfront

He is learning, unfortunately he is still speaking before he understands, therefore he has to make these quiet retreats from his policies.  It doesn't really matter, at this point he can say anything and his cult will follow.

I am both left handed and Christian. I know a left handed compliment when I hear one and I know to forgive you.

These words come to mind. Condescending, Dismissive, and Egotistical. Maybe you are a college political science professor. Otherwise your opinions and analyses are no better than mine. You continue to think that only passion, cultism and emotion determine Obama support. That's an error I hope republican leadership shares. We do indeed live in different worlds.

If you detect hatred, look inward. I am not the one who has a history of demeaning others with name calling.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by pmcalk



I hope you do take the time to investigate Obama.  I would suggest you read his books, which IMO provide tremendous insight not only on his positions, but how he thinks.  To me, that is critical to a president--how will he approach problems that aren't even foreseen.

Oh, you mean quotes like these?  How's about a little weed or cocaine whenever it gets a bit stressful in the oval office?

From Dreams of My Father:  'I ceased to advertise my mother's race at the age of 12 or 13, when I began to suspect that by doing so I was ingratiating myself to whites.'

From Dreams of My Father:  'I found a solace in nursing a pervasive sense of grievance and animosity gainst my mothers race.'

From Dreams of My Father:  'There was something about him that made me wary, a little too sure of himself, maybe.  And white.'

From Dreams of My Father:  'It remained necessary to prove which side you were on, to show your loyalty to the black masses, to strike out and name names.'

From Dreams of My Father:  'I never emulate white men and brown men whose fates didn't speak to my own.  It was into my father's image, the black man, son of Africa , that I'd packed all the attributes I sought in myself, the attributes of Martin and Malcolm, DuBois and Mandela.'

From Audacity of Hope:  'I will stand with the Muslims should the political winds shift in an ugly direction.'

[Gaspar]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

quote:Originally posted by pmcalk



I hope you do take the time to investigate Obama.  I would suggest you read his books, which IMO provide tremendous insight not only on his positions, but how he thinks.  To me, that is critical to a president--how will he approach problems that aren't even foreseen.

Oh, you mean quotes like these?  How's about a little weed or cocaine whenever it gets a bit stressful in the oval office?

From Dreams of My Father:  'I ceased to advertise my mother's race at the age of 12 or 13, when I began to suspect that by doing so I was ingratiating myself to whites.'

From Dreams of My Father:  'I found a solace in nursing a pervasive sense of grievance and animosity gainst my mothers race.'

From Dreams of My Father:  'There was something about him that made me wary, a little too sure of himself, maybe.  And white.'

From Dreams of My Father:  'It remained necessary to prove which side you were on, to show your loyalty to the black masses, to strike out and name names.'

From Dreams of My Father:  'I never emulate white men and brown men whose fates didn't speak to my own.  It was into my father's image, the black man, son of Africa , that I'd packed all the attributes I sought in myself, the attributes of Martin and Malcolm, DuBois and Mandela.'

From Audacity of Hope:  'I will stand with the Muslims should the political winds shift in an ugly direction.'

Dude!  You're going to spoil it for me.  Don't tell me the ending.  That's my reading assignment for this weekend.  

[Conan71]

I thought I'd cut to the chase so you could enjoy something like "Friend Of The Devil" by Peter Robinson or Grisham's new legal thriller instead of a sales pitch for the latest Democrat Party rock star creation.

[FOTD]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

I thought I'd cut to the chase so you could enjoy something like "Friend Of The Devil" by Peter Robinson or Grisham's new legal thriller instead of a sales pitch for the latest Democrat Party rock star creation.

You missed it. Completely. Doofus.
Have you and Gaspar hooked up yet?

[we vs us]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

I thought I'd cut to the chase so you could enjoy something like "Friend Of The Devil" by Peter Robinson or Grisham's new legal thriller instead of a sales pitch for the latest Democrat Party rock star creation.

Bitter Partisans, party of two!  Bitter Partisans, your table is ready!


PS. if you liked Obama, you're gonna LOVE the next Democratic Party rock star creations!



Personally, I can't wait to see the kind of national healthcare that Donny Wahlberg's cookin' up!

[waterboy]

Talk about the masters of context. Conan- just when were those statements by Obama made? My understanding from a reviewer was that they were during adolescence and detailed his struggle with being a mixed race child. IOW, typical identity issues mixed with angst. But then that wouldn't sound nearly as inflammatory would it?

And spin this:

I am Christian, but I will stand with the Jews should the political winds shift in an ugly direction.

Kind of sounds noble doesn't it? Maybe something Falwell would have said. Not the same cachet when you throw in the word Muslim though. Even though they are part of our American fabric just like Christians, Jews, Budhists and Polygamists.

Context, as you and Gassy point out, means everything.

...chirp...chirp...chirp...

[joebaloney]

Personal attack deleted.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

Talk about the masters of context. Conan- just when were those statements by Obama made? My understanding from a reviewer was that they were during adolescence and detailed his struggle with being a mixed race child. IOW, typical identity issues mixed with angst. But then that wouldn't sound nearly as inflammatory would it?

And spin this:

I am Christian, but I will stand with the Jews should the political winds shift in an ugly direction.

Kind of sounds noble doesn't it? Maybe something Falwell would have said. Not the same cachet when you throw in the word Muslim though. Even though they are part of our American fabric just like Christians, Jews, Budhists and Polygamists.

Context, as you and Gassy point out, means everything.

...chirp...chirp...chirp...

Obama wrote it.  He can't lay claim to not having racial issues and racial identity issues.

His most ardent supporters want to neutralize the race issue, yet Obama has left a paper trail and has called a man his "spiritual advisor" who preaches Black Liberation Theology.

Christian standing with Jews or Obama standing w/ Muslims- apple/orange, please don't be so glib, I've got a lot more respect for you than that.

[Gaspar]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

Talk about the masters of context. Conan- just when were those statements by Obama made? My understanding from a reviewer was that they were during adolescence and detailed his struggle with being a mixed race child. IOW, typical identity issues mixed with angst. But then that wouldn't sound nearly as inflammatory would it?

And spin this:

I am Christian, but I will stand with the Jews should the political winds shift in an ugly direction.

Kind of sounds noble doesn't it? Maybe something Falwell would have said. Not the same cachet when you throw in the word Muslim though. Even though they are part of our American fabric just like Christians, Jews, Budhists and Polygamists.

Context, as you and Gassy point out, means everything.

...chirp...chirp...chirp...

Obama wrote it.  He can't lay claim to not having racial issues and racial identity issues.

His most ardent supporters want to neutralize the race issue, yet Obama has left a paper trail and has called a man his "spiritual advisor" who preaches Black Liberation Theology.

Christian standing with Jews or Obama standing w/ Muslims- apple/orange, please don't be so glib, I've got a lot more respect for you than that.

Come on Conan!  

Obama didn't mean it.  He was just joking.  He's changed his mind!  He was young, and you know how kids are. He grown up a lot.  That was the old Obama.  We all make mistakes.  Sometimes we say things we don't mean.  He was having a bad day. You took those comments out of context.

And the winner is. . . YOUR A RACEST!

[USRufnex]

quote:Originally posted by Gaspar

I also have one less thing to criticize Obama for, he has now retracted his statements about talking to Iran and state sponsors of terror.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/may/22/barackobama.usforeignpolicy?gusrc=rss&feed=networkfront

He is learning, unfortunately he is still speaking before he understands, therefore he has to make these quiet retreats from his policies.  It doesn't really matter, at this point he can say anything and his cult will follow.

I have read ALL of Obama's positions and have been following his political career for nearly a decade now...

I am so tired of condescending comments from pompous pie-in-the-sky so-called libertarians...

I could be a libertarian except I'm not nearly that naive... I understand that if we had a "liberatarian" government, ONLY THE WEALTHY WOULD HAVE POWER IN THIS COUNTRY.

I am not so naive as to realize that it doesn't really matter what specific proposals come from politicians... but how many of Reagan's specific proposals came to fruition?... you end up voting for a direction, a direction in which the country should be going.

Arguing the "cult of Obama" is as disingenuous as insinuating everybody who supported George W. Bush only did so because he was the candidate "they'd rather have a beer with" --

Obama is an inspiring, elequent LIBERAL... he is a statesman... America needs good liberals... people who will dispel the conservative media-driven notions that liberals are unpatriotic, wimpy, closet-communist "appeasers" who want to steal from the rich to give to the poor...

I just heard Obama's speech in Miami... finally some sense.  Finally, some intellect on display.  Finally, someone who KNOWS what he's talking about.  Obama's foreign policy will be a breath of fresh air-- I want to see an Obama foreign policy team with Colin Powell, Chuck Hagel and Dick Lugar which along with dems in the cabinet will clean up some of the awful mess the Bush administration has left us...  

If you don't like Obama, don't vote for him.  If you don't like his positions, don't vote for him.  If you HATE liberals because the media has told you as much, and FoxNews and ClearChannel have you drinking their KoolAid... don't vote for him.

But don't imply that those of us who support Obama are STUPID for our decision to do so... I'm giving money to the campaign because it is HUGELY IMPORTANT to dispel the myths that you and others like you insist upon perpetuating...

I understand Obama may make mistakes, but he will most definitely learn from them, unlike the current administration...

And Conan will insist on demonizing Rev Wright, Al $harpton and Je$$e Jack$son and insist any democrat who wields any sort of political power or influence is some sort of "closet communist" or "closet marxist" or is utterly corrupt....... conservative propaganda knows no bounds...

[USRufnex]

quote:Originally posted by Gaspar

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

Talk about the masters of context. Conan- just when were those statements by Obama made? My understanding from a reviewer was that they were during adolescence and detailed his struggle with being a mixed race child. IOW, typical identity issues mixed with angst. But then that wouldn't sound nearly as inflammatory would it?

And spin this:

I am Christian, but I will stand with the Jews should the political winds shift in an ugly direction.

Kind of sounds noble doesn't it? Maybe something Falwell would have said. Not the same cachet when you throw in the word Muslim though. Even though they are part of our American fabric just like Christians, Jews, Budhists and Polygamists.

Context, as you and Gassy point out, means everything.

...chirp...chirp...chirp...

Obama wrote it.  He can't lay claim to not having racial issues and racial identity issues.

His most ardent supporters want to neutralize the race issue, yet Obama has left a paper trail and has called a man his "spiritual advisor" who preaches Black Liberation Theology.

Christian standing with Jews or Obama standing w/ Muslims- apple/orange, please don't be so glib, I've got a lot more respect for you than that.

Come on Conan!  

Obama didn't mean it.  He was just joking.  He's changed his mind!  He was young, and you know how kids are. He grown up a lot.  That was the old Obama.  We all make mistakes.  Sometimes we say things we don't mean.  He was having a bad day. You took those comments out of context.

And the winner is. . . YOUR A RACEST!

No, the problem is, you have little empathy for anyone outside your own little political culture clique... I find that to be a problem in Tulsa more than I have other cities...

I am not the same person I was in the mid-80s... neither is Obama... I consider Rev Wright to be alot like the drill sargent who says all kinds of crazy XXXX but by the end of it all, a young kid finds his focus, discipline, pride, committment to family etc...

Obama's speech on race...
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2008/03/18/us/politics/20080318_OBAMA_GRAPHIC.html#

Obama's principled opposition to the war on Iraq...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhpKmQCCwB8

Obama's speech on our empathy deficit...
http://www.northwestern.edu/newscenter/stories/2006/06/barack.html

The world doesn't just revolve around you.  

There's a lot of talk in this country about the federal deficit.  But I think we should talk more about our empathy deficit – the ability to put ourselves in someone else's shoes; to see the world through those who are different from us – the child who's hungry, the laid-off steelworker, the immigrant woman cleaning your dorm room.

As you go on in life, cultivating this quality of empathy will become harder, not easier.  There's no community service requirement in the real world; no one forcing you to care.  You'll be free to live in neighborhoods with people who are exactly like yourself, and send your kids to the same schools, and narrow your concerns to what's going in your own little circle.  

Not only that – we live in a culture that discourages empathy.  A culture that too often tells us our principal goal in life is to be rich, thin, young, famous, safe, and entertained.  A culture where those in power too often encourage these selfish impulses.

They will tell you that the Americans who sleep in the streets and beg for food got there because they're all lazy or weak of spirit.  That the inner-city children who are trapped in dilapidated schools can't learn and won't learn and so we should just give up on them entirely.  That the innocent people being slaughtered and expelled from their homes half a world away are somebody else's problem to take care of.

------------------------------------------------

The second lesson I learned after college, when I had this crazy idea that I wanted to be a community organizer and work in low-income neighborhoods.  

My mother and grandparents thought I should go to law school.  My friends had applied for jobs on Wall Street.  But I went ahead and wrote letters to every organization in the country that I could think of.  And finally, this small group of churches on the south side of Chicago wrote back and gave me a job organizing neighborhoods devastated by steel-plant closings in the early 80s.

The churches didn't have much money – so they offered me a grand sum of $12,000 a year plus $1,000 to buy a car.  And I got ready to move to Chicago – a place I had never been and where I didn't know a living soul.

------------------------------------------------

So, keep playing your political games and drinking your chardonnay, all the while accusing Obama of being an elitist... and pretending that if the government is dismantled and libertarians ruled the world, that everything would be just peachy... but I know better.

[Gaspar]

quote:Originally posted by USRufnex
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So, keep playing your political games and drinking your chardonnay, all the while accusing Obama of being an elitist... and pretending that if the government is dismantled and libertarians ruled the world, that everything would be just peachy... but I know better.

You're not getting it, but that's ok.  Your values are different than mine and I can respect that.


Self-interest is not myopic selfishness. It is whatever it is that interests the participants, whatever they value, whatever goals they pursue. The scientist seeking to advance the frontiers of his discipline, the missionary seeking to convert infidels to the true faith, the philanthropist seeking to bring comfort to the needy – all are pursuing their interests, as they see them, as they judge them by their own values. – Milton Friedman