HB 1804 Suffers Setback

[guido911]

Here ya go:

http://newsok.com/article/3252886/

[Conan71]

I have to disagree with the assertion that 1804 was going to place more burden for enforcement of the law on businesses.  I don't see it that way at all.  It's more a matter of them complying with laws, or their failure to comply with Federal laws prior to now.  Since they have not observed the law, illegal immigrants have become the crack of the labor pool and business is trying to find a legal way to keep employing illegal immigrants.

[guido911]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

I have to disagree with the assertion that 1804 was going to place more burden for enforcement of the law on businesses.  I don't see it that way at all.  It's more a matter of them complying with laws, or their failure to comply with Federal laws prior to now.  Since they have not observed the law, illegal immigrants have become the crack of the labor pool and business is trying to find a legal way to keep employing illegal immigrants.

I agree with your premise. I called what happened with this court a "setback" because the Plaintiffs will still have to prove their case if they are to get a permanent injunction, then they have to get past the 10th circuit.

[Conan71]

Oh I wasn't criticizing your choice of words at all, completely appropriate.  

I'm thinking the judge was smoking something.  That really, really is a stretch to say it forces business to "enforce" the law.  Any idea how this judge falls on other issues?  Curious how 10th circ. will weigh on it.

[mrhaskellok]

Yeah, I thought the same thing reading that...how is it their job to enfore immagration law any more than it is thier job to file taxes?

[Double A]

This ruling will be overturned. The ruling to watch will be Seller's in the state case. I heard he is expected to rule on that soon. Looks like he's going to wait until after the deadline for filing for office ends, though.

[joiei]

I just don't understand.  When I was a kid growing up in Florida, illegal immigrants were part of the system, only we called them migrant workers.  Some of the bigger farms even had camps for them to live in, disgusting places and the migrants paid dearly for the privilige to stay there.  The government encouraged this use of cheap labor.  And now the state of Oklahoma is all giddy about making it a crime if you even know about an illegal.  Amazing how things change when it needs to become politically expedient, or is the term politically correct.

[iplaw]

quote:Originally posted by joiei

I just don't understand.  When I was a kid growing up in Florida, illegal immigrants were part of the system, only we called them migrant workers.  Some of the bigger farms even had camps for them to live in, disgusting places and the migrants paid dearly for the privilige to stay there.  The government encouraged this use of cheap labor.  And now the state of Oklahoma is all giddy about making it a crime if you even know about an illegal.  Amazing how things change when it needs to become politically expedient, or is the term politically correct.

Yeah, didn't you just love those good ole days when encouraged companies to treat illegal immigrants like a slaves?

[grahambino]

quote:Originally posted by iplaw

quote:Originally posted by joiei

I just don't understand.  When I was a kid growing up in Florida, illegal immigrants were part of the system, only we called them migrant workers.  Some of the bigger farms even had camps for them to live in, disgusting places and the migrants paid dearly for the privilige to stay there.  The government encouraged this use of cheap labor.  And now the state of Oklahoma is all giddy about making it a crime if you even know about an illegal.  Amazing how things change when it needs to become politically expedient, or is the term politically correct.

Yeah, didn't you just love those good ole days when encouraged companies to treat illegal immigrants like a slaves?

that would be a good point, if the intent of this law were to eliminate 'wage slavery'.  If it was, then the proponents of this law have done a fantastic job of clouding the issue....with what's that word....oh yeah, nevermind.

[iplaw]

That was not the intent of my post, nor do I care to debate this issue until it's been through the court system.  My post was in response to an apparent disinterest in the welfare of illegals, as long as it only costs joiei $5 or 50 pesos to get a lawn mowed.

I could care less what these people get paid if they are here illegally, I wouldn't pay them a dime to do anything.

[cannon_fodder]

I have trouble assessing the law from an unbiased perspective.  

First, I think the Federal immigration policy is screwed up.  It is too tight both for immigrants and employers, so they both work around it.  And the fed is complicit in this action.  A realistic immigration policy is in order, not open borders but something closer to a worker program and a path to citizenship (register and come to the USA, you nor your family get Federal Aid for 5 years and your children are not automatic citizens until you qualify, if you work and keep your nose clean and don't have to run home you can get on a path to citizenship).

Second, most of the negatives of immigration are based on myths.  The vast majority do not commit crimes, they do not suck off of welfare, nor do they beg for handouts from charities.  MOST just want to work for a living and either provide for their family or send a little cash home to their parents.  There are of course exceptions, but IMHO most immigrants are hard working guys trying to earn a buck.

And third, if I was a nobody in Mexico and could earn more money in the United States and/or give the possibility of a better life to me son, I'd be up here too.  It's the logical choice for them.  

IMHO, 1804 is an overreaction at the State level to poor policy and even worse enforcement at the Federal level.  It's bad for business, it's bad for immigrants, and it's bad for the image of Oklahoma.  In my opinion, the main positive is the righteous feeling the supports get from it (any other positives are based on the failure at the Federal level, I agree).

Crappy situation all around...

[we vs us]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

I have trouble assessing the law from an unbiased perspective.  

First, I think the Federal immigration policy is screwed up.  It is too tight both for immigrants and employers, so they both work around it.  And the fed is complicit in this action.  A realistic immigration policy is in order, not open borders but something closer to a worker program and a path to citizenship (register and come to the USA, you nor your family get Federal Aid for 5 years and your children are not automatic citizens until you qualify, if you work and keep your nose clean and don't have to run home you can get on a path to citizenship).

Second, most of the negatives of immigration are based on myths.  The vast majority do not commit crimes, they do not suck off of welfare, nor do they beg for handouts from charities.  MOST just want to work for a living and either provide for their family or send a little cash home to their parents.  There are of course exceptions, but IMHO most immigrants are hard working guys trying to earn a buck.

And third, if I was a nobody in Mexico and could earn more money in the United States and/or give the possibility of a better life to me son, I'd be up here too.  It's the logical choice for them.  

IMHO, 1804 is an overreaction at the State level to poor policy and even worse enforcement at the Federal level.  It's bad for business, it's bad for immigrants, and it's bad for the image of Oklahoma.  In my opinion, the main positive is the righteous feeling the supports get from it (any other positives are based on the failure at the Federal level, I agree).

Crappy situation all around...

Bravo.  An excellent summation.

[guido911]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

I have trouble assessing the law from an unbiased perspective.  

First, I think the Federal immigration policy is screwed up.  It is too tight both for immigrants and employers, so they both work around it.  And the fed is complicit in this action.  A realistic immigration policy is in order, not open borders but something closer to a worker program and a path to citizenship (register and come to the USA, you nor your family get Federal Aid for 5 years and your children are not automatic citizens until you qualify, if you work and keep your nose clean and don't have to run home you can get on a path to citizenship).

Second, most of the negatives of immigration are based on myths.  The vast majority do not commit crimes, they do not suck off of welfare, nor do they beg for handouts from charities.  MOST just want to work for a living and either provide for their family or send a little cash home to their parents.  There are of course exceptions, but IMHO most immigrants are hard working guys trying to earn a buck.

And third, if I was a nobody in Mexico and could earn more money in the United States and/or give the possibility of a better life to me son, I'd be up here too.  It's the logical choice for them.  

IMHO, 1804 is an overreaction at the State level to poor policy and even worse enforcement at the Federal level.  It's bad for business, it's bad for immigrants, and it's bad for the image of Oklahoma.  In my opinion, the main positive is the righteous feeling the supports get from it (any other positives are based on the failure at the Federal level, I agree).

Crappy situation all around...

Care to provide some support for the sweeping statements in the second point you made. First, as for societal cost, I seem to recall there were untold numbers of hospitals along the U.S. Mexico border going into Chapter 9 bankruptcy because of illegal immigration. As for crime, notwithstanding that every "illegal" immigrant is committing a crime by simply being here (and gosh only knows the fraud they commit to get jobs and or obtain benefits), I always come back to this tidbit from a couple years ago:

Heather MacDonald, in a piece for City-Journal which also posted at Frontpagemagazine.com, addressed the astounding impact of illegal alien criminals. In "Illegal Alien Crime Wave," she notes that in Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) target illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens.

http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2005/10/6/92636.shtml

I guess that's a real "crappy situation" for those 1200 homicide victims and their families in L.A.

[grahambino]

quote:Originally posted by guido911

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

I have trouble assessing the law from an unbiased perspective.  

First, I think the Federal immigration policy is screwed up.  It is too tight both for immigrants and employers, so they both work around it.  And the fed is complicit in this action.  A realistic immigration policy is in order, not open borders but something closer to a worker program and a path to citizenship (register and come to the USA, you nor your family get Federal Aid for 5 years and your children are not automatic citizens until you qualify, if you work and keep your nose clean and don't have to run home you can get on a path to citizenship).

Second, most of the negatives of immigration are based on myths.  The vast majority do not commit crimes, they do not suck off of welfare, nor do they beg for handouts from charities.  MOST just want to work for a living and either provide for their family or send a little cash home to their parents.  There are of course exceptions, but IMHO most immigrants are hard working guys trying to earn a buck.

And third, if I was a nobody in Mexico and could earn more money in the United States and/or give the possibility of a better life to me son, I'd be up here too.  It's the logical choice for them.  

IMHO, 1804 is an overreaction at the State level to poor policy and even worse enforcement at the Federal level.  It's bad for business, it's bad for immigrants, and it's bad for the image of Oklahoma.  In my opinion, the main positive is the righteous feeling the supports get from it (any other positives are based on the failure at the Federal level, I agree).

Crappy situation all around...

Care to provide some support for the sweeping statements in the second point you made. First, as for societal cost, I seem to recall there were untold numbers of hospitals along the U.S. Mexico border going into Chapter 9 bankruptcy because of illegal immigration. As for crime, notwithstanding that every "illegal" immigrant is committing a crime by simply being here (and gosh only knows the fraud they commit to get jobs and or obtain benefits), I always come back to this tidbit from a couple years ago:

Heather MacDonald, in a piece for City-Journal which also posted at Frontpagemagazine.com, addressed the astounding impact of illegal alien criminals. In "Illegal Alien Crime Wave," she notes that in Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) target illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens.

http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2005/10/6/92636.shtml

I guess that's a real "crappy situation" for those 1200 homicide victims and their families in L.A.

so, you ask for 'proof' but then go on to make statements like 'i seem to recall...'

so what is it, the article you linked was from 05, you'd think you'd have some harder numbers in order to justify your racism by now.  what is  it....1200 or 1500?  
it sure is a 'crappy situation' if upwards 300 families do not receive your compassion.

[guido911]

quote:Originally posted by grahambino

quote:Originally posted by guido911

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

I have trouble assessing the law from an unbiased perspective.  

First, I think the Federal immigration policy is screwed up.  It is too tight both for immigrants and employers, so they both work around it.  And the fed is complicit in this action.  A realistic immigration policy is in order, not open borders but something closer to a worker program and a path to citizenship (register and come to the USA, you nor your family get Federal Aid for 5 years and your children are not automatic citizens until you qualify, if you work and keep your nose clean and don't have to run home you can get on a path to citizenship).

Second, most of the negatives of immigration are based on myths.  The vast majority do not commit crimes, they do not suck off of welfare, nor do they beg for handouts from charities.  MOST just want to work for a living and either provide for their family or send a little cash home to their parents.  There are of course exceptions, but IMHO most immigrants are hard working guys trying to earn a buck.

And third, if I was a nobody in Mexico and could earn more money in the United States and/or give the possibility of a better life to me son, I'd be up here too.  It's the logical choice for them.  

IMHO, 1804 is an overreaction at the State level to poor policy and even worse enforcement at the Federal level.  It's bad for business, it's bad for immigrants, and it's bad for the image of Oklahoma.  In my opinion, the main positive is the righteous feeling the supports get from it (any other positives are based on the failure at the Federal level, I agree).

Crappy situation all around...

Care to provide some support for the sweeping statements in the second point you made. First, as for societal cost, I seem to recall there were untold numbers of hospitals along the U.S. Mexico border going into Chapter 9 bankruptcy because of illegal immigration. As for crime, notwithstanding that every "illegal" immigrant is committing a crime by simply being here (and gosh only knows the fraud they commit to get jobs and or obtain benefits), I always come back to this tidbit from a couple years ago:

Heather MacDonald, in a piece for City-Journal which also posted at Frontpagemagazine.com, addressed the astounding impact of illegal alien criminals. In "Illegal Alien Crime Wave," she notes that in Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) target illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens.

http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2005/10/6/92636.shtml

I guess that's a real "crappy situation" for those 1200 homicide victims and their families in L.A.

so, you ask for 'proof' but then go on to make statements like 'i seem to recall...'

so what is it, the article you linked was from 05, you'd think you'd have some harder numbers in order to justify your racism by now.  what is  it....1200 or 1500?  
it sure is a 'crappy situation' if upwards 300 families do not receive your compassion.

Hey jackass, I was not the person making the original point about crime statistics and societal costs among illegal immigrants. If CF wants to push me, then we can have that debate. And another thing, keep your BS race baiting to your self. My belief that our government (state or federal) should have a policy of curbing the flow of illegal immigration does not make me a racist. However, jackasses like you who make unsubstantiated, stupid assumptions makes you, well, a jackass. See, I can name-call too. Hey everyone, I can argue as well as grahambino!