HB 1804 Suffers Setback

[Hometown]

This is part of a pattern of our enforcement of our immigration laws for decades now.  We stop just short of employer sanctions.  So the immigrant labor gets in trouble and the employers get off without so much as a slap on the wrist.  

Guess which one has money and attorneys and influence in enforcement of government policy.

We use these laborers then turn around and make feel good laws that are subverted by employers that do nothing but drive workers underground and suppress wages for all workers.

We need to admit that the U.S. has serious labor shortages and immigrant laborers are the fuel that keeps our economy moving forward.

Six months ago I listened to the old White union man that lives behind me rant about "wet backs."  Then a week later his roof was covered by immigrant labor replacing his roof.  

We are such incredible hypocrites.

[grahambino]

quote:Originally posted by guido911

quote:Originally posted by grahambino

quote:Originally posted by guido911

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

I have trouble assessing the law from an unbiased perspective.  

First, I think the Federal immigration policy is screwed up.  It is too tight both for immigrants and employers, so they both work around it.  And the fed is complicit in this action.  A realistic immigration policy is in order, not open borders but something closer to a worker program and a path to citizenship (register and come to the USA, you nor your family get Federal Aid for 5 years and your children are not automatic citizens until you qualify, if you work and keep your nose clean and don't have to run home you can get on a path to citizenship).

Second, most of the negatives of immigration are based on myths.  The vast majority do not commit crimes, they do not suck off of welfare, nor do they beg for handouts from charities.  MOST just want to work for a living and either provide for their family or send a little cash home to their parents.  There are of course exceptions, but IMHO most immigrants are hard working guys trying to earn a buck.

And third, if I was a nobody in Mexico and could earn more money in the United States and/or give the possibility of a better life to me son, I'd be up here too.  It's the logical choice for them.  

IMHO, 1804 is an overreaction at the State level to poor policy and even worse enforcement at the Federal level.  It's bad for business, it's bad for immigrants, and it's bad for the image of Oklahoma.  In my opinion, the main positive is the righteous feeling the supports get from it (any other positives are based on the failure at the Federal level, I agree).

Crappy situation all around...

Care to provide some support for the sweeping statements in the second point you made. First, as for societal cost, I seem to recall there were untold numbers of hospitals along the U.S. Mexico border going into Chapter 9 bankruptcy because of illegal immigration. As for crime, notwithstanding that every "illegal" immigrant is committing a crime by simply being here (and gosh only knows the fraud they commit to get jobs and or obtain benefits), I always come back to this tidbit from a couple years ago:

Heather MacDonald, in a piece for City-Journal which also posted at Frontpagemagazine.com, addressed the astounding impact of illegal alien criminals. In "Illegal Alien Crime Wave," she notes that in Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) target illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens.

http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2005/10/6/92636.shtml

I guess that's a real "crappy situation" for those 1200 homicide victims and their families in L.A.

so, you ask for 'proof' but then go on to make statements like 'i seem to recall...'

so what is it, the article you linked was from 05, you'd think you'd have some harder numbers in order to justify your racism by now.  what is  it....1200 or 1500?  
it sure is a 'crappy situation' if upwards 300 families do not receive your compassion.

Hey jackass, I was not the person making the original point about crime statistics and societal costs among illegal immigrants. If CF wants to push me, then we can have that debate. And another thing, keep your BS race baiting to your self. My belief that our government (state or federal) should have a policy of curbing the flow of illegal immigration does not make me a racist. However, jackasses like you who make unsubstantiated, stupid assumptions makes you, well, a jackass. See, I can name-call too. Hey everyone, I can argue as well as grahambino!

well i suppose, if you wanted to debate cannon_fodder, that might have been better accomplished through a private messages.  since you did not choose to do that, then you'll have to deal w/ the fact i think you're racist and using 'unsubstantiated, stupid assumptions' to lend support to a sorry law.

Its not as if I just jumped to this conclusion, either.
you've said nothing to convince me otherwise, based on your previous posts / threads on this topic.

[guido911]

quote:Originally posted by grahambino

quote:Originally posted by guido911

quote:Originally posted by grahambino

quote:Originally posted by guido911

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

I have trouble assessing the law from an unbiased perspective.  

First, I think the Federal immigration policy is screwed up.  It is too tight both for immigrants and employers, so they both work around it.  And the fed is complicit in this action.  A realistic immigration policy is in order, not open borders but something closer to a worker program and a path to citizenship (register and come to the USA, you nor your family get Federal Aid for 5 years and your children are not automatic citizens until you qualify, if you work and keep your nose clean and don't have to run home you can get on a path to citizenship).

Second, most of the negatives of immigration are based on myths.  The vast majority do not commit crimes, they do not suck off of welfare, nor do they beg for handouts from charities.  MOST just want to work for a living and either provide for their family or send a little cash home to their parents.  There are of course exceptions, but IMHO most immigrants are hard working guys trying to earn a buck.

And third, if I was a nobody in Mexico and could earn more money in the United States and/or give the possibility of a better life to me son, I'd be up here too.  It's the logical choice for them.  

IMHO, 1804 is an overreaction at the State level to poor policy and even worse enforcement at the Federal level.  It's bad for business, it's bad for immigrants, and it's bad for the image of Oklahoma.  In my opinion, the main positive is the righteous feeling the supports get from it (any other positives are based on the failure at the Federal level, I agree).

Crappy situation all around...

Care to provide some support for the sweeping statements in the second point you made. First, as for societal cost, I seem to recall there were untold numbers of hospitals along the U.S. Mexico border going into Chapter 9 bankruptcy because of illegal immigration. As for crime, notwithstanding that every "illegal" immigrant is committing a crime by simply being here (and gosh only knows the fraud they commit to get jobs and or obtain benefits), I always come back to this tidbit from a couple years ago:

Heather MacDonald, in a piece for City-Journal which also posted at Frontpagemagazine.com, addressed the astounding impact of illegal alien criminals. In "Illegal Alien Crime Wave," she notes that in Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) target illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens.

http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2005/10/6/92636.shtml

I guess that's a real "crappy situation" for those 1200 homicide victims and their families in L.A.

so, you ask for 'proof' but then go on to make statements like 'i seem to recall...'

so what is it, the article you linked was from 05, you'd think you'd have some harder numbers in order to justify your racism by now.  what is  it....1200 or 1500?  
it sure is a 'crappy situation' if upwards 300 families do not receive your compassion.

Hey jackass, I was not the person making the original point about crime statistics and societal costs among illegal immigrants. If CF wants to push me, then we can have that debate. And another thing, keep your BS race baiting to your self. My belief that our government (state or federal) should have a policy of curbing the flow of illegal immigration does not make me a racist. However, jackasses like you who make unsubstantiated, stupid assumptions makes you, well, a jackass. See, I can name-call too. Hey everyone, I can argue as well as grahambino!

well i suppose, if you wanted to debate cannon_fodder, that might have been better accomplished through a private messages.  since you did not choose to do that, then you'll have to deal w/ the fact i think you're racist and using 'unsubstantiated, stupid assumptions' to lend support to a sorry law.
Its not as if I just jumped to this conclusion, either.
you've said nothing to convince me otherwise, based on your previous posts / threads on this topic.

Right back at ya as to you being a jackass. After all, its "not as if I just jumped to this conclusion, either. [Y]ou've said nothing to convince me otherwise, based on your previous posts / threads on this topic."

[cannon_fodder]

I am not pushing you Guido, I merely stated my opinion and I am prepared to defend it.  I'm not calling you racist nor anyone else a jackass.  Lets step back and discuss it...

1)  In the United States all persons, as you know, are entitled to emergency care.  This is without regard to insurance, ability to pay, or their immigration status.  This costs hospitals a huge mount of money, that they make up for from governmental sources as well as over charging those of us who pay.

The number of un-collectible treatments is directly proportional to the number of poor serviced by the hospital with the secondary factor being availability of insurance (often governmental).  The reason illegal immigrants cost hospitals in the ER more than any other group is because they are not entitled to governmental health coverage (in spite of the claim they suck from governmental services) nor are hospitals reimbursed for the procedures.

This problem would clearly be exacerbated in border communities in which Mexican citizens can legally or illegally enter the US and then seek said medical treatment.  In that instance it is not so much a factor of a problem of immigration as a greater policy issue.

But in any event, the burden put on hospital ER's are unfortunate and ancillary to the immigration problem. So you are correct that this does serve as a cost on our society, which I will not deny. But it is really indicative of a problem with health care for many of our nations poor, legal or otherwise.  

Thus, the argument can be framed as a desire to exclude poor people from immigrating the United States because our health care system fails to accommodate them.

2) The crime statistics you cite have been widely refuted by the LA Times, LA Stories magazine, and Snopes:
http://www.snopes.com/politics/immigration/taxes.asp

But pretending the facts are correct, it would make sense.  A national of another country would have more outstanding warrants because they can simply return to their country of origin.  It is not indicative of a great propensity for crime of that group nor does it support the heart-filled argument of "think of their families."  

If we were to discourage people from residing in our country based on crime statistics limiting the population of African Americans should be our #1 priority.  

But, you and I both understand that ones race does not make the individual more or less likely to commit a crime.  So while again illustrating that immigration (legal or otherwise) has a cost, the argument could be framed as a desire to keep out an entire race because they have a statistical propensity for crime.  Which is of course not a logical argument to limit immigration of individual workers.

3) Finally, the crime of "being here" or "fraud" in paper work are crimes that only exist because of our poor immigration system.  Attempting to label Jose Mexican as a criminal because he is here illegally, while accurate, just seems a bit off to me (kep in mind I view their illegal status as a result of OUR flawed system and their desire to improve themselves in most cases).  If immigration policies were more realistic these crimes would be more enforcible and less excusable.  
- - -

Americans want more workers, as evidenced by continued hiring of illegal workers i spite of increased raids, fines, and the prospect of asset seizures.  Mexicans want to come to the US and work, as evidenced by the continued immigration in spite of deportation, fines, and dangers in crossing the border.  Why we fail to facilitate this relationship in a rational manner and instead insist on further measures to up the illusion of security, is not entirely clear to me.

Set up a system where Jose Mexican or Hank Honduran can come here and easily come here legally make a buck, waive all rights to suck off the system, and be given a chance to be a citizen if XYZ criteria are met... then illegals will piss me off.  But so long as the system is set up that Mr. Average can no longer realistically come to the United States and try to improve his life while not inhibiting mine - then I can't hold it against them.

I like to think that if I wasn't born in America, I'd do whatever I could to get my family here.  Legal or otherwise.  So I can't blame them for doing the same thing.

[iplaw]

quote:you'll have to deal w/ the fact i think you're racist

What a thoughtful and logical argument you present.  How could anyone ever defeat this kind of mind bending logic?

[grahambino]

quote:Originally posted by iplaw

quote:you'll have to deal w/ the fact i think you're racist

What a thoughtful and logical argument you present.  How could anyone ever defeat this kind of mind bending logic?

I really could not care less if you agree or disagree with my assertion.

I am not trying to convince you or anyone else of my conclusion.

okay, sure, 'fact' was a poor choice of word.  i'll give you that.

as for being a jackass?  no argument from me.   i will readily admit I have moments of jackassery, on this forum, on other forums and in real life.

/shrug

[Moderator]

If we can not discuss sensitive topics in a meaningful way this topic will be locked. I have let a lot of junk threads descend into worthlessness lately, so if you wish to partake feel free to go there.  This thread has a meaningful topic worthy of civilized discussion.

There, now you're a jackass, he's a jackass, and I'm a jackass.  So please get back to the discussion of immigration without calling people names or slinging tactless racism accusations.

Sincerely,

Moderator

[iplaw]

quote:Originally posted by grahambino

quote:Originally posted by iplaw

quote:you'll have to deal w/ the fact i think you're racist

What a thoughtful and logical argument you present.  How could anyone ever defeat this kind of mind bending logic?

I really could not care less if you agree or disagree with my assertion.

I am not trying to convince you or anyone else of my conclusion.

okay, sure, 'fact' was a poor choice of word.  i'll give you that.

as for being a jackass?  no argument from me.   i will readily admit I have moments of jackassery, on this forum, on other forums and in real life.

/shrug

I'm still trying to ascertain what your conclusions are, or even what actual disagreement you have with what guido has said.

[guido911]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

I am not pushing you Guido, I merely stated my opinion and I am prepared to defend it.  I'm not calling you racist nor anyone else a jackass.  Lets step back and discuss it...

1)  In the United States all persons, as you know, are entitled to emergency care.  This is without regard to insurance, ability to pay, or their immigration status.  This costs hospitals a huge mount of money, that they make up for from governmental sources as well as over charging those of us who pay.

The number of un-collectible treatments is directly proportional to the number of poor serviced by the hospital with the secondary factor being availability of insurance (often governmental).  The reason illegal immigrants cost hospitals in the ER more than any other group is because they are not entitled to governmental health coverage (in spite of the claim they suck from governmental services) nor are hospitals reimbursed for the procedures.

This problem would clearly be exacerbated in border communities in which Mexican citizens can legally or illegally enter the US and then seek said medical treatment.  In that instance it is not so much a factor of a problem of immigration as a greater policy issue.

But in any event, the burden put on hospital ER's are unfortunate and ancillary to the immigration problem. So you are correct that this does serve as a cost on our society, which I will not deny. But it is really indicative of a problem with health care for many of our nations poor, legal or otherwise.  

Thus, the argument can be framed as a desire to exclude poor people from immigrating the United States because our health care system fails to accommodate them.

2) The crime statistics you cite have been widely refuted by the LA Times, LA Stories magazine, and Snopes:
http://www.snopes.com/politics/immigration/taxes.asp

But pretending the facts are correct, it would make sense.  A national of another country would have more outstanding warrants because they can simply return to their country of origin.  It is not indicative of a great propensity for crime of that group nor does it support the heart-filled argument of "think of their families."  

If we were to discourage people from residing in our country based on crime statistics limiting the population of African Americans should be our #1 priority.  

But, you and I both understand that ones race does not make the individual more or less likely to commit a crime.  So while again illustrating that immigration (legal or otherwise) has a cost, the argument could be framed as a desire to keep out an entire race because they have a statistical propensity for crime.  Which is of course not a logical argument to limit immigration of individual workers.

3) Finally, the crime of "being here" or "fraud" in paper work are crimes that only exist because of our poor immigration system.  Attempting to label Jose Mexican as a criminal because he is here illegally, while accurate, just seems a bit off to me (kep in mind I view their illegal status as a result of OUR flawed system and their desire to improve themselves in most cases).  If immigration policies were more realistic these crimes would be more enforcible and less excusable.  
- - -

Americans want more workers, as evidenced by continued hiring of illegal workers i spite of increased raids, fines, and the prospect of asset seizures.  Mexicans want to come to the US and work, as evidenced by the continued immigration in spite of deportation, fines, and dangers in crossing the border.  Why we fail to facilitate this relationship in a rational manner and instead insist on further measures to up the illusion of security, is not entirely clear to me.

Set up a system where Jose Mexican or Hank Honduran can come here and easily come here legally make a buck, waive all rights to suck off the system, and be given a chance to be a citizen if XYZ criteria are met... then illegals will piss me off.  But so long as the system is set up that Mr. Average can no longer realistically come to the United States and try to improve his life while not inhibiting mine - then I can't hold it against them.

I like to think that if I wasn't born in America, I'd do whatever I could to get my family here.  Legal or otherwise.  So I can't blame them for doing the same thing.

1.  Emergency Care:  I am not sure where we can go on this. I think we agree that illegal immigration does impose significant financial burdens on hospitals. Your point that "[t]he reason illegal immigrants cost hospitals in the ER more than any other group is because they are not entitled to governmental health coverage..." is confusing to me. I think this point, as well as the crime statistics point, is that the presence of illegal immigrants does impose a financial burden on the tax payers of this country and "but for" their presence these expenses would not exist. Indeed, it is possible these hospitals would not have been forced into bankruptcy (or in some instances closed) "but for" their use.    

2.  Crime statistics: I read the Snopes article and do not find its conclusions about crime and illegal immigration that particularly helpful. My read demonstrates a questioning of the application of the statitiscs I cited and not that the statistics are "widely refuted". To stay focused, though, I think we can agree that illegal immigrants do commit heinous and violent crime.  The point I am making, and have admittedly made on several occasions, is that American citizens are being victimized by the crimes of those who should not even be in this country to begin with. Now, does that mean that legal immigrants and American citizens do not commit violent crimes? No. Does that mean that illegal immigrants are more prone to commit violent crimes (as opposed to committing the crime of violating U.S. immigration law)? No. But the fact remains we hear stories that a 10 old girl has been raped by an illegal immigrant, or that an illegal immigrant has killed someone, and the thought that "what could have become of that victim had that illegal immigrant not been here" resurfaces.

Your extension of the argument that you can reduce overall crime by reducing the overall number of a class of persons who commit crime (such as males) is, to me, untenable. It plainly obfuscates the immigration issue and the fact there is a workable/reasonable solution, that is keeping illegal immigrants out of the country to begin with.

Finally, I do not see how your point is furthered by suggesting that if you were born in another country you would do what you could to get here. I think we can all agree that the U.S. is the greatest place to be. It would be a far better place in my opinion if those wanting to come here would just follow the rules.

Oh, and I know you never meant to call me a racist.

[cannon_fodder]

1) I was trying to say that emergency care costs that have to be covered by hospitals are not related to immigration status, they are correlated to income.  Poor people go to the ER for more treatment and they are most likely to not pay the bills.  Immigrants are more likely to be poor than citizens.  Therefor, this problem is common among immigrants.

Poor citizens have medicare/caid that helps the hospital offset the cost.  So it is even more pronounced when those services do not cover immigrants.  So but for the immigrants, we would not have to cover their health expenses, with that I clearly must agree.

But, again, that is a symptom of a health system that does a poor job catering to the poor in general.  I do not see it as a significant reason to oppose immigration.  If "avoiding health costs" is  a prime concern then lets limit the number of children poor people can have - since you and I pay for their birthing and on going health (as well as child care, education, food, and often their housing).

What alternative would you suggest?  If a person shows up at a hospital with a medical condition we verify citizenship and ability to pay before treatment - if either are unsatisfactory we allow them to die?    Clearly poor people of all classifications would suffer from this in a manner than would be detrimental to society.

Basically, poor legal immigrants or Americans cost the hospitals just as much as poor illegal immigrants.  You're argument applies equally well against legal or illegal immigration to the US.

2)  Illegal immigrants commit crimes.  100% true.  

Legal immigrants commit crimes.  100% true.

Citizens of all colors commit crimes.  100% true.

But because *some* immigrants commit crimes I fail to understand why other potential immigrants should be punished.  
- - -

The health costs are unavoidable if we allow any poor people into the United States.  As tourists, immigrants, or just laborers.  It also applies to our own poor.  So I don't see it as a real argument against immigration.

Same with crime.  Some people from every classification commits crime.  That is not a reason to let people immigrate who look similar to them.  The actions of some simply don't correlate to the actions of most of the others.

And finally, I can empathize with illegal immigrants because if I was in their situation I would probably do the same thing.  I would want to come here and work.  Not to mooch off of health care or to murder people, but to work to better provide for my family.  So, since the system is set up that most people can not get that chance - I can't blame them for breaking the rules to get it.

It stems from the fact that, following the rules most people can not come in to work.  The time and expertise involved precludes most people from doing it.  For the 50K DV Green Cards there were over 6,000,000 applicants last year.   There are not enough Visas for the applicants NOR for the number of people wanted by employers.  This is true from engineers down to orange pickers.

Our immigrations system sucks, I blame the people at the top of the totem pole - not those at the bottom.

What is your view on the matter?   Perhaps I can better address your concerns if I understood where you view comes from.  I don't think a little extra money on health care (NC is the only state that did a study, 1% of unfunded care was from illegal immigrants) or the potential for crime (which is inherent in everyone entering the US), are at the heart of your concerns.

The English protestants disliked the English Catholics, who got to hate on the French, who got to hate on the Germans, who hated on Italian, who got to hate on the Irish, who joined in hating the Eastern Europeans who joined in mocking the Chinese who... you know, I don't know who they hated on.  Probably other Asians.  We've always welcomed immigrants with crap jobs and a cold shoulder and it's always worked out.  This will work out too.

[grahambino]

quote:Originally posted by iplaw

quote:Originally posted by grahambino

quote:Originally posted by iplaw

quote:you'll have to deal w/ the fact i think you're racist

What a thoughtful and logical argument you present.  How could anyone ever defeat this kind of mind bending logic?

I really could not care less if you agree or disagree with my assertion.

I am not trying to convince you or anyone else of my conclusion.

okay, sure, 'fact' was a poor choice of word.  i'll give you that.

as for being a jackass?  no argument from me.   i will readily admit I have moments of jackassery, on this forum, on other forums and in real life.

/shrug

I'm still trying to ascertain what your conclusions are, or even what actual disagreement you have with what guido has said.

my issue was originally this:

demanding 'support' for a position, then in the very next sentence, using a phrase like 'i seem to remember untold amounts of hospitals', followed by some article w/ specious crime numbers, coupled w/ phrases such as 'up to two thirds'.  Then, feign compassion over the phoney  numbers.

Sorry, I'm going to call a spade a spade and when I see outright bull**** being spouted, I'm going to call it that too.  Flinging that label out there was the incorrect way of accomplishing this.  I'll admit that mistake.

[guido911]

CF:  I think we have reached the proverbial impasse. As long as you lump U.S. citizens with legal immigrants, and illegal immigrants, and then draw conclusions based on such, I no longer see any room to argue. HB 1804 is/was Oklahoma's attempt to confront illegal immigration and the economic/financial harm illegal immigration causes. Once you introduce other groups of persons who plainly are not the subject of HB 1804, or even inject other groups of persons into the illegal immigration debate, the impact of illegal immigration on its own gets watered down and the argument becomes what this now is: How do we as a society take care of the less fortunate? I view that debate as apples and oranges to the illegal immigration debate. Indeed, if that were the debate, I think you would be surprised how I come down on that.

As for my solution to the illegal immigration problem, assuming the solution is to come from the federal level, I most certainly believe one of the first things that should be done is stopping the influx first. From there we can discuss what to do with those who are presently here.

[cannon_fodder]

Guido, I'm really trying to understand your reasoning - I held similar views for a long time and I bet we want similar things.  I recognize a difference between citizens and illegal-immigrants.  I was just drawing comparisons and trying to explain my reasoning.  The problems you indicate are the reason behind your anti-immigration stance are not exclusive to illegal-immigrants, so I do not understand why they justify your stance.  The other issues are ancillary and related to my immigration reasoning.

I'm not arguing that immigrants (legal or otherwise) don't cause problems.  They do and always have.  How should that effect what our immigration policy should be (I'm not trying to be trite, I'm really trying to understand your perspective)?  I can not look at it black and white.  Hispanic immigrants cost us money and commit crimes, therefor we should exclude them.  I don't see it that clear cut - and I'm not a bleeding heart by any means.

So, per solutions to the problem...
- - -
My basic assumption:
Most illegal-immigrants come here to work and are (otherwise) law abiding individuals.

I guess if we disagree on that assumption my perspective might be lost.  But moving on:

1) How do we stop the influx?  I agree whole heartedly with this goal, but realistically don't see it happening without some sort of meaningful legal reform to the issue.  The border is too barren in place, to crowded in others, and too much trade and traffic cross it to be immigrant tight.  

2) In general, what numeric level of immigration would you be happy with?  What of my idea that if you swear of government aid and have a clean history you can come in and work - at least in much larger numbers that we currently have.  Nearly unlimited for skilled workers (why in the hell do we want to limit the number of the best and brightest that we allow to come here!).

3) IF, we had some way for most of the workers who want to come and work to do so - then we could more effectively secure our borders.  Instead of a flood of illegal immigrants our border guards could concentrate on those few that remain - who are more likely to be drug smugglers, terrorists, or others that are undesirable in the US (criminal records that could not get in to work).

4) The other part of the equation is what to do with those that are already here.  I'm torn on this, I don't want to reward their behavior BUT many are assimilated and have proven that they can hold down jobs, earn a living, and not get arrested - as well as having children that have lived their entire lives here.  My suggestion would be to make them "buy" their freedom by an extra payroll tax pf XYZ percent for a number of years - or something similar.

That way, in announcing the plan (in conjunction with increased ability to legally  enter) there would be a rush to STOP running the border lest you pay the fine.   If they waited and did so legally they could avoid it.  As the policy went in to effect the number of illegals would drop (if you are paying the fine you are legal) and it would be easier to concentrate on those that are not legal.

BASICALLY, by making legal immigration easier for those that have a clean slate and legitimately want to come and work, we could concentrate more on the criminals, moochers, and other undesirables that you are concerned with.  But as it stands, in my opinion, we waste 85% of our resources chasing everyone else.