Why do we need a new baseball stadium?

[booWorld]

quote:Originally posted by Chicken Little

quote:Originally posted by booWorld

As far as I know, it's any landowner's right to do absolutely nothing with his or her holdings as long as the taxes are paid and minimum health codes / property standards are maintained.

Do you ever listen to yourself?  You are arguing that the city should REWARD do-nothings who buy up huge chunks of property for speculative purposes.  Wilson is hanging out doing nothing and hoping someone will build something nice around him...

You're incorrect.  I'm arguing that land owners have the option of doing nothing with their holdings as long as they maintain them according to codes and pay the property taxes.

I am arguing that the City should not PUNISH those who acquire property and hold it for years and years as the Tulsa Development Authority does.  Who owns the vacant land between Easton and Jasper from Cheyenne to Cincinnati?  What's being done with that vacant land?

Since 1992, when I read Paul Wilson's explanation of the 'Gateway Project,' I have seen next to nothing happen with the Twenty First Properties land except demolition and more surface parking lots.  But that's precisely what Wilson said they'd be doing with their property:

quote:from the Tulsa World, September 27, 1992:


When [Twenty First Properties] closed a deal this summer on the "Bowen Corner" tract, a lounge-liquor store site on the southeast corner of 11th Street and Denver Avenue, the real estate community speculated about new development. Rumors even surfaced about some major demolition plans for the area.

Well, this past week, the demolition work began and Twenty First Properties President Paul Wilson came forward to explain what the heck they're up to.

Nothing in the way of development, Wilson said - at least not right now.  As another gesture to the long-term investment posture the company has consistently maintained, Twenty First Properties is putting into motion a concept it calls the "Gateway Project."

The name doesn't refer to any specific structure. Instead, it is the moniker given to an idea built around the fact Denver Avenue is a "gateway" for the 28,000 people who commute into the downtown area daily.

"We call it a private urban renewal plan," Wilson said.

Cosmetically, the project involves razing vacant or blighted buildings, and replacing them with landscaped greens. In a more abstract manner, Wilson said the plan essentially will prepare the site for development.

"There is no catalyst other than to stabilize this area for some point in the future," Wilson emphasized...

...Further to the east, Boston Avenue United Methodist Church, First Methodist Church, Blue Cross and Blue Shield and Tulsa Junior College have been buying property for their own uses, Wilson said.  Most of the property is being converted into parking spaces, but the effect has been that these entities have turned some previously blighted areas into usable, well-maintained spaces.

There's no timetable on the Gateway Project but Wilson estimates the clearing and improvements on his company's part will be completed in a year to 18 months.  He said neither his company nor other firms are negotiating for potential developments...

This is some of the most accurate reporting I've ever seen from the Tulsa World!  The emphases in the quote are mine.

So Paul Wilson told the truth.  So what if you don't like hearing the truth?

How long did the Tulsa Urban Renewal Authority and/or Tulsa Development Authority hold the property on the northwest corner of 11th and Denver before the Renaissance apartments were built?  

Reality check:  Large chunks of land have been held for long periods of time in central Tulsa, with much of this land under the control of the Tulsa Development Authority or the Tulsa Urban Renewal Authority.  

Many of us (myself included) do not care to see the decades roll by with nothing being done with these parcels other than demolition and the construction of more parking lots.  So what?  That's reality.

I'm not saying I like this reality, and I think it can be changed.  But for now, it's Tulsa's reality.  I didn't enjoy seeing the Skelly Building razed and replaced with a parking lot.  But as Joe Worley pointed out, World Publishing purchased the Skelly Building for their private use.  It was their decision to tear it down.  Period.  

[FOTD]

quote:Originally posted by booWorld

Perhaps.

But Paul Wilson was quoted by P.J. Lassek, so it might be, as a representative of Twenty First Properties, that he simply cannot support the mayor's plan.

Think about what the current special assessment district is supposed to provide.  Do you think that downtown property owners are currently receiving satisfactory service from DTU at a mere 1/6th of the proposed new assessment rate?  

Don't be surprised if some downtown property owners are a bit leery of the proposed long-term assessments.  The mayor's presentation was yesterday.  The same Tulsa World article mentioned a City Council vote on July 10th.  To me, this doesn't seem like much time for public input on quasi-public downtown project of this magnitude.

The devil believes the churches need to put in their portion. No free ride. Especially to heaven.

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by booWorld

quote:Originally posted by Double A

The simple answer to the question that is the title to this thread is that we don't need a new stadium. This is purely a question of wants, not of needs.

You beat me to the punch.  I was getting ready to post something very similar to what you said about wants versus needs.

I'd like to see more realism on this forum.

Some people want a baseball stadium downtown.  No one actually needs one.

Some people would love to have the option of riding rail transit in Tulsa, but a true "need" for it is dubious.

Some people wanted a hydroelectric dam across the river, a lake with islands, highrise apartment buildings on the islands, etc.  But somehow Tulsa has managed to survive without any of that.

There are many examples.  Some questions I think we ought to be asking about large projects funded wholly or substantially by the public:

- Who wants to do what?
- Why?
- Exactly where and for how much cost?
- Who will pay?  How will they pay and for how long?
- Who will benefit?  How much and for how long?
- How fair and unfair is it likely to be to how many people?
- How does the proposal fit into the Comprehensive Plan, if at all?
- How does the project fit into its immediate surroundings?  Into a larger urban context?
- How long will it take to build the project?
- What will be its probable lifespan?
- What happens when the project is no longer useful, wanted, or "needed"?

Wow, a questioning voice out of the Wilderness?

Glad you're not drinking the TulsaMetroChamberPots Kool-Aid, either.

[]

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by Chicken Little

quote:Originally posted by booWorld

As far as I know, it's any landowner's right to do absolutely nothing with his or her holdings as long as the taxes are paid and minimum health codes / property standards are maintained.

Do you ever listen to yourself?  You are arguing that the city should REWARD do-nothings who buy up huge chunks of property for speculative purposes.  Wilson is hanging out doing nothing and hoping someone will build something nice around him.  Last I checked, that makes him part of the problem.

And FB, you should stop now with this "'hood" talk.  Greenwood is safe.  You've exposed your biases on other occasions and it's ugly.

Go for a stroll tonite after dark in the area of the proposed Ball Park.

Then, report back tomorrow if you're in one piece, and have retained your virtue.

The proposed ball park is in too close of proximity to a bad area.  

LOTS of the homeless shelter people and aid society patrons patronize the area.  

Also, it's not purely a racial issue, but gangs like to take over venues where a lot of people with wallets full of money patronize.  

And, it has an added benefit of being close to their base of operations:  The 'hood.

Everyone knows it.

But, I'm not drinking the MetroTulsaChamberPots Kool-Aid.

Are you?

The Drillers currently charge $6 for a General Admission ticket.

My prediction is if they build this unneeded stadium downtown will be a $10 per ticket minimum.

Just wait until Tulsans start seeing the BOK Arena Ticket Shock for upcoming events, following by the Drillers Downtown Stadium Ticket Shock.

Ouch!

Mrs. Kitty is such a High Maintenance Woman.

How much longer can we afford her?

Poor Mr. Lobeck.

Poor Tulsa.

[]

[RecycleMichael]

Did we need the Performing Arts Center in downtown Tulsa? No.

But it has been a great use of public/private monies and has completely added to our quality of life.

Same as this ballpark will. It will be a completely wonderful place for families to gather, a cool place to hang out with your beer drinking buddies, and a cool place to talk business or gossip with your friends and clients, all at the same time.

I agree we don't need it in the strict definition of the word. For that matter we don't need churches either. But I want to live in a town that has a great Performing Arts Center, a cool ballpark and as many churches as we can handle.

[Double A]

quote:Originally posted by RecycleMichael

Did we need the Performing Arts Center in downtown Tulsa? No.

But it has been a great use of public/private monies and has completely added to our quality of life.

Same as this ballpark will. It will be a completely wonderful place for families to gather, a cool place to hang out with your beer drinking buddies, and a cool place to talk business or gossip with your friends and clients, all at the same time.

I agree we don't need it in the strict definition of the word. For that matter we don't need churches either. But I want to live in a town that has a great Performing Arts Center, a cool ballpark and as many churches as we can handle.

If we didn't already have a ballpark, that might mean something. You are really grasping for straws there. I wonder how any of the Councilors can support this Ballpark plan when they all took the position that government should not be subsidizing private business at the last Council meeting. Last time I checked, the Drillers are privately owned. Unless the city plans on buying the drillers too, I don't see how they could justify supporting it in light of their statements.

[booWorld]

quote:Originally posted by Double A

I wonder how any of the Councilors can support this Ballpark plan when they all took the position that government should not be subsidizing private business at the last Council meeting...

From what I've seen in the news, Gomez and Henderson seem to be in favor of the ballpark.  My guess is that the proposed new assessment district will be approved.

Just my hunch --- we'll see very soon.

[deinstein]

We don't need a new stadium.

[deinstein]

quote:Originally posted by RecycleMichael

Did we need the Performing Arts Center in downtown Tulsa? No.

Where was the PAC before it moved to 2nd and Cincinnati?

[booWorld]

What's now known as the Brady Theater (at the northwest corner of Boulder and Brady) served as Tulsa's Municipal Theater before the PAC opened in the late 1970s.  Before the PAC was built, Tulsans did not have the option of parking in a multi-level underground garage directly adjacent to Tulsa's municipal auditorium.



Photo source: Beryl Ford Collection | Rotary Club of Tulsa | Tulsa Historical Society | Tulsa City-County Library

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by RecycleMichael

Did we need the Performing Arts Center in downtown Tulsa? No.

But it has been a great use of public/private monies and has completely added to our quality of life.

Same as this ballpark will. It will be a completely wonderful place for families to gather, a cool place to hang out with your beer drinking buddies, and a cool place to talk business or gossip with your friends and clients, all at the same time.

I agree we don't need it in the strict definition of the word. For that matter we don't need churches either. But I want to live in a town that has a great Performing Arts Center, a cool ballpark and as many churches as we can handle.

It will definitely be COOL as a open-air stadium from about November through February here in frigid winter clime N.E. Oklahoma.  

Bring a blanket with your heavy coat.

It will be used approximately 66 times per year for Drillers home games during the temperate months.

If reconfigured, it can be used for a soccer game.  Probably excess seating for a soccer game.

It probably lacks the accoustics for enjoyable open-air concerts, but we already have a new $140 million arena (for $200 million)for those desirous of an Arena style concert.

We already have a perfectly adequate PAID FOR stadium.  

When it starts to fall down due to neglect of maintenance by our Tulsa County commissioners, they we can consider replacing it.  

That's how the County operates.  Defer maintenance until a building functionally obsolesces, or falls into ruin.

That's how the current Driller stadium was constructed; part of the Oilers stadium literally collapsed.


[:O]

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by booWorld

What's now known as the Brady Theater (at the northwest corner of Boulder and Brady) served as Tulsa's Municipal Theater before the PAC opened in the late 1970s.  Before the PAC was built, Tulsans did not have the option of parking in a multi-level underground garage directly adjacent to Tulsa's municipal auditorium.



Photo source: Beryl Ford Collection | Rotary Club of Tulsa | Tulsa Historical Society | Tulsa City-County Library

There's not a bad seat in the house at the Brady.

Slightly smaller than the PAC, but not by a huge amount.

The Old Lady of Brady has some class.

[Chicken Little]

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

Go for a stroll tonite after dark in the area of the proposed Ball Park.

Then, report back tomorrow if you're in one piece, and have retained your virtue.

The proposed ball park is in too close of proximity to a bad area.

I've walked to shows at the Cain's and Brady dozens of times over years and years.  It's fine.  Greenwood is not near to any "bad areas" and gangs don't hang out in the area at night.

Talk about Kook-Aid; how's your refreshment stand doing?

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by Chicken Little

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

Go for a stroll tonite after dark in the area of the proposed Ball Park.

Then, report back tomorrow if you're in one piece, and have retained your virtue.

The proposed ball park is in too close of proximity to a bad area.

I've walked to shows at the Cain's and Brady dozens of times over years and years.  It's fine.  Greenwood is not near to any "bad areas" and gangs don't hang out in the area at night.

Talk about Kook-Aid; how's your refreshment stand doing?

Have you bumped into any packs of youths armed with long sticks transitting to the Brady?

I have.

[Chicken Little]

No, no angry groups of kids ever.  Are you sure they weren't fishing poles?

Talk about Freudian slips, I really did intend to spell Kool-aid.  Sorry FB.[]