Why do we need a new baseball stadium?

[Wrinkle]

Congratulations Mayor Taylor.

You succeeded in taxing all Tulsan (and all County residents) without a public vote, while at the same time driving many businessess out of downtown, all after spending a half billion or so to make it the 'place to be'.

Not sure I like these 'work' or 'catasrophic failure' plans.

What happens if it doesn't work?

IAC, I've had enough of 30-40 year projects. Let's start thinking 2-3 years out and see if we can 'make life better'.

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by Wrinkle

Congratulations Mayor Taylor.

You succeeded in taxing all Tulsan (and all County residents) without a public vote, while at the same time driving many businessess out of downtown, all after spending a half billion or so to make it the 'place to be'.

Not sure I like these 'work' or 'catasrophic failure' plans.

What happens if it doesn't work?

IAC, I've had enough of 30-40 year projects. Let's start thinking 2-3 years out and see if we can 'make life better'.

Make careful note of the very few details we've been told about the Title 60 Public Trust that will govern the Stadium construction and operations.

The Lorton's World told us this week:

1.  The proposed $60 million ballpark will be owned by a public trust in which five of the seven board members will be donors who gave more than $2 million to the project.

2.  The other two members will be the mayor and a downtown property owner appointed by the mayor and approved by the City Council.

3.  The mayor, however, may remove the property owner with a successor to be approved by council.

4.  The donors on the Trust Board will have TWELVE YEAR terms. Donors will NOMINATE successors, who will be subject to council approval.

5.  The trust will be formed under state law (Meaning that the Public Trust will ESCHEW competitive bidding requirements contained in State Law) and be subject to Oklahoma Open Meeting laws (meaning all REAL decisions will be made in advance of the public meeting).

6.  Manhattan Construction Co. (Rooney Oligarch Family) is a $1 million donor, and has been picked through a "bidding" process to build the stadium.

The TIMING of this new downtown construction project is a mighty curious coincidence.   Namely, the SAME MONTH that Manhattan's revenue from the construction of the BOK Arena ENDS, Manhattan can move down the street to the 'hood and start work on the new Driller's Stadium.

How HANDY!

Makes you wonder if the ONLY thing really behind the new stadium is to replace the lost cash flow for Rooney Family?

This is NOT being awarded on a COMPETITIVE Bidding process.  

It was cited as a "bidding" process.

What this structure achieves is several fold:

With 12 year terms, which is extraordinarily LONG compared to other Title 60 Public Trusts, the next Mayor cannot control the appointments to the Board.

This 12 year term will also just coincidentally coincide with Governor Kathy Taylor's retirement   after serving her second term as Oklahoma Governor.

And, it creates a very opaque structure for this new TAX HONEY POT, for the benefit of the Local Ruling Oligarchy.  

For the next THIRTY years.......

HOW HANDY!!

Welcome to the Banana Republic of Tulsa.

[:O]

[USRufnex]

More FB spam. [!]

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by USRufnex

More FB spam. [!]

Feel FREE to show me where I'm wrong.......

[:O]

[USRufnex]

I have ... I did ... done it before and can do it again... but you insist on cobbling together a list of grievances so long and obtuse that it is impossible to address many of them... because you'll simply come up with more... from your perpetual fountain of mularkey...

You have the baskin-robbins version of arguing against public money being spent on anything in Tulsa.... 31 flavors, all tainted with different flavors of b.s....

This is like your arguments against the tax that would have GREATLY BENEFITTED the river.  Funny how OKC can get these things done... KC, Chicago, Indy, Ft. Worth, etc, etc, etc... can get these things done.

You are so typical of the old mindset and middle-aged farts I've met in this city since moving back... the people who are... HOLDING TULSA BACK.  

THEY ARE.  YOU ARE.  GEE, I JUST CAN'T WAIT FOR ANOTHER GENERATION OF YOUNG TULSANS TO LEAVE, NEVER COME BACK, AND REFUSE TO GIVE THEIR HOMETOWN A GOOD REFERENCE...

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by USRufnex

I have ... I did ... done it before and can do it again... but you insist on cobbling together a list of grievances so long and obtuse that it is impossible to address many of them... because you'll simply come up with more... from your perpetual fountain of mularkey...

You have the baskin-robbins version of arguing against public money being spent on anything in Tulsa.... 31 flavors, all tainted with different flavors of b.s....

This is like your arguments against the tax that would have GREATLY BENEFITTED the river.  Funny how OKC can get these things done... KC, Chicago, Indy, Ft. Worth, etc, etc, etc... can get these things done.

You are so typical of the old mindset and middle-aged farts I've met in this city since moving back... the people who are... HOLDING TULSA BACK.  

THEY ARE.  YOU ARE.  GEE, I JUST CAN'T WAIT FOR ANOTHER GENERATION OF YOUNG TULSANS TO LEAVE, NEVER COME BACK, AND REFUSE TO GIVE THEIR HOMETOWN A GOOD REFERENCE...

If you think that more taxes are needed for critical infrastructure development and economic development, especially for River Development, feel FREE to voluntarily contribute extra of your hard earned dollars to the following:

The Tax-Me-More Foundation
c/o Commissioner Randi Miller
Tulsa County Courthouse
500 South Denver
Tulsa OK  74103

Check with your Tax Advisor to determine if your  contribution is Tax Deductible.





[:I]

[FOTD]

quote:Originally posted by Gold

If you don't like it, move.

The leadership is really trying to do something.  

Part of my joy is watching haters like you routinely get angry at all the good.

It's like a cherry on top.

If you have a better idea, try to implement it.

But you don't have ideas, other than wild stories that aren't true and making stuff up.

So, if all you got is crazy, please go be crazy somewhere else.

Try OKC.

[:O]

The LEADERSHIP is trying to make Tulsa like every other city. Why not? The devil takes to unique and different and not to sameness. Monotony is for angels in the outfield not devils in dugouts.

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by FOTD

quote:Originally posted by Gold

If you don't like it, move.

The leadership is really trying to do something.  

Part of my joy is watching haters like you routinely get angry at all the good.

It's like a cherry on top.

If you have a better idea, try to implement it.

But you don't have ideas, other than wild stories that aren't true and making stuff up.

So, if all you got is crazy, please go be crazy somewhere else.

Try OKC.

[:O]

The LEADERSHIP is trying to make Tulsa like every other city. Why not? The devil takes to unique and different and not to sameness. Monotony is for angels in the outfield not devils in dugouts.

Tulsa's political leadership always seems to be about FIVE years late on adopting what ever Fad other cities have tried and already discarded.

Cases in Point:

1.  Under the Mantra of the 1960's Urban Renewal, Tulsa aggessively and almost completely flattened our old 1920's era warehouse districts near downtown, to create vacant lots and parking lots.

Other cities, like Dallas, Little Rock and OKC took a go SLOWER approach in flattening old, neglected or abandoned downtown buildings.

For instance the Dallas West End, Little Rock River Market, and OKC Bricktown had their genesis in old warehouse districts.

Unfortunately, most of Tulsa's old brick warehouses were flattened long ago.

2.  Our  1970's era Main Mall was a copycat of what many other cities like OKC and Little Rock had already done.

Now, that attempt at "downtown revitalization" is gone.  A Roundtrip hosing of the Tulsa taxpayer; we paid to put the Main Mall in; we paid to take the Main Mall out.

3.  In a few years, urban planning types will look askance at the current fading fad in downtown stadiums, especially knocking down adequate venues with super expensive replacements as playgrounds for the League of Millionaire Club Owners.

And those in the know realize that it's just to keep the concrete flowing for the connected construction companies and their cronies.

[:O]

[MDepr2007]

quote:Originally posted by USRufnex

I have ... I did ... done it before and can do it again... but you insist on cobbling together a list of grievances so long and obtuse that it is impossible to address many of them... because you'll simply come up with more... from your perpetual fountain of mularkey...

You have the baskin-robbins version of arguing against public money being spent on anything in Tulsa.... 31 flavors, all tainted with different flavors of b.s....

This is like your arguments against the tax that would have GREATLY BENEFITTED the river.  Funny how OKC can get these things done... KC, Chicago, Indy, Ft. Worth, etc, etc, etc... can get these things done.

You are so typical of the old mindset and middle-aged farts I've met in this city since moving back... the people who are... HOLDING TULSA BACK.  

THEY ARE.  YOU ARE.  GEE, I JUST CAN'T WAIT FOR ANOTHER GENERATION OF YOUNG TULSANS TO LEAVE, NEVER COME BACK, AND REFUSE TO GIVE THEIR HOMETOWN A GOOD REFERENCE...

So you really blame the minority with holding Tulsa back?
Pleeezz there has to be more to it than that.

Look at those other cities and see the differance. It's how it's done, most have bigger corporate sponsers than Tulsa has allowed in to offer more than our local bamkroll can. Too many want their fingers in it and they ruin the idea that most citizens might invest in.
Bricktown wasn't done with bribes of the local rich families was it? OKC built a river in between some old buildings. Tulsa can't even keep the holes filled around our old buildings.

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by FOTD

quote:Originally posted by Gold

If you don't like it, move.

The leadership is really trying to do something.  

Part of my joy is watching haters like you routinely get angry at all the good.

It's like a cherry on top.

If you have a better idea, try to implement it.

But you don't have ideas, other than wild stories that aren't true and making stuff up.

So, if all you got is crazy, please go be crazy somewhere else.

Try OKC.

[:O]

The LEADERSHIP is trying to make Tulsa like every other city. Why not? The devil takes to unique and different and not to sameness. Monotony is for angels in the outfield not devils in dugouts.

Tulsa's political leadership always seems to be about FIVE years late on adopting what ever Fad other cities have tried and already discarded.

Cases in Point:

1.  Under the Mantra of the 1960's Urban Renewal, Tulsa aggessively and almost completely flattened our old 1920's era warehouse districts near downtown, to create vacant lots and parking lots.

Other cities, like Dallas, Little Rock and OKC took a go SLOWER approach in flattening old, neglected or abandoned downtown buildings.

For instance the Dallas West End, Little Rock River Market, and OKC Bricktown had their genesis in old warehouse districts.

Unfortunately, most of Tulsa's old brick warehouses were flattened long ago.

2.  Our  1970's era Main Mall was a copycat of what many other cities like OKC and Little Rock had already done.

Now, that attempt at "downtown revitalization" is gone.  A Roundtrip hosing of the Tulsa taxpayer; we paid to put the Main Mall in; we paid to take the Main Mall out.

3.  In a few years, urban planning types will look askance at the current fading fad in downtown stadiums, especially knocking down adequate venues with super expensive replacements as playgrounds for the League of Millionaire Club Owners.

And those in the know realize that it's just to keep the concrete flowing for the connected construction companies and their cronies.

[:O]

You could take examples 1 and 2, then put anything you want behind #3 and say it wont work for downtown. There is no logic in that. Tell me why it wont work? Tell me what you would do?

I think a development that will make an area more attractive, that will bring more people to downtown, that is pedestrian friendly,,, will indeed help other businesses, will give confidence to other developers to invest around it, will add to the critical mass of entertainment options, etc.

You can argue with the funding method, but I cant for the life of me see how it will hurt downtown, especially an area that really doesnt have much of anything in it anyway.

Even if it doesnt spur a single new development, the stadium, and the people that will go to the game, IS downtown revitalization. Every shop, every loft, every restaurant, every business, every park, every museum, any extra person that goes to any of those, etc. IS downtown revitalization.

[MDepr2007]

Has McNellies added to the menu , food wise that is?
I found it rather limited last year when we ate there. The pork chops reminded me of something out of a frozen Sysco box.

Loved being able to get a Löwenbräu though [^]

[Gold]

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by FOTD

quote:Originally posted by Gold

If you don't like it, move.

The leadership is really trying to do something.  

Part of my joy is watching haters like you routinely get angry at all the good.

It's like a cherry on top.

If you have a better idea, try to implement it.

But you don't have ideas, other than wild stories that aren't true and making stuff up.

So, if all you got is crazy, please go be crazy somewhere else.

Try OKC.

[:O]

The LEADERSHIP is trying to make Tulsa like every other city. Why not? The devil takes to unique and different and not to sameness. Monotony is for angels in the outfield not devils in dugouts.

Tulsa's political leadership always seems to be about FIVE years late on adopting what ever Fad other cities have tried and already discarded.

Cases in Point:

1.  Under the Mantra of the 1960's Urban Renewal, Tulsa aggessively and almost completely flattened our old 1920's era warehouse districts near downtown, to create vacant lots and parking lots.

Other cities, like Dallas, Little Rock and OKC took a go SLOWER approach in flattening old, neglected or abandoned downtown buildings.

For instance the Dallas West End, Little Rock River Market, and OKC Bricktown had their genesis in old warehouse districts.

Unfortunately, most of Tulsa's old brick warehouses were flattened long ago.

2.  Our  1970's era Main Mall was a copycat of what many other cities like OKC and Little Rock had already done.

Now, that attempt at "downtown revitalization" is gone.  A Roundtrip hosing of the Tulsa taxpayer; we paid to put the Main Mall in; we paid to take the Main Mall out.

3.  In a few years, urban planning types will look askance at the current fading fad in downtown stadiums, especially knocking down adequate venues with super expensive replacements as playgrounds for the League of Millionaire Club Owners.

And those in the know realize that it's just to keep the concrete flowing for the connected construction companies and their cronies.

[:O]

You really don't know what you are talking about.

Tulsa has the worst stadium in its league.

Time to renovate or move.

Jenks wants the team.  That's at least $100K in sales tax revenue the city stands to lose if they leave (prolly more when you factor in all the sales tax from businesses affected by the stadium).

We need sales tax revenue.

It's always in style.

You have to be a fool not to support this plan.  Everyone on city council was behind the idea -- the three no votes were really more about the process (and perhaps their frustration with the limited power of that body).

If you don't like the city, move.  I'll even pay for the U-haul.  We don't need negative trolls like you.

If you have better idea of how to make Tulsa a better place, please propose it.

The thing is that you don't.  You are 100% negative.  You sit around and complain about everything.

You make up facts, attack good leaders, and routinely exhibit your frustration with you lot in life.

No other explanation.

The funny thing is that you always lose.

We are building the stadium.  It's going to be great.

The city is heading in a positive direction.

And your frequent complaints have had no effect.

Poor Friendly Bear.  

[:O]

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by Gold

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by FOTD

quote:Originally posted by Gold

If you don't like it, move.

The leadership is really trying to do something.  

Part of my joy is watching haters like you routinely get angry at all the good.

It's like a cherry on top.

If you have a better idea, try to implement it.

But you don't have ideas, other than wild stories that aren't true and making stuff up.

So, if all you got is crazy, please go be crazy somewhere else.

Try OKC.

[:O]

The LEADERSHIP is trying to make Tulsa like every other city. Why not? The devil takes to unique and different and not to sameness. Monotony is for angels in the outfield not devils in dugouts.

Tulsa's political leadership always seems to be about FIVE years late on adopting what ever Fad other cities have tried and already discarded.

Cases in Point:

1.  Under the Mantra of the 1960's Urban Renewal, Tulsa aggessively and almost completely flattened our old 1920's era warehouse districts near downtown, to create vacant lots and parking lots.

Other cities, like Dallas, Little Rock and OKC took a go SLOWER approach in flattening old, neglected or abandoned downtown buildings.

For instance the Dallas West End, Little Rock River Market, and OKC Bricktown had their genesis in old warehouse districts.

Unfortunately, most of Tulsa's old brick warehouses were flattened long ago.

2.  Our  1970's era Main Mall was a copycat of what many other cities like OKC and Little Rock had already done.

Now, that attempt at "downtown revitalization" is gone.  A Roundtrip hosing of the Tulsa taxpayer; we paid to put the Main Mall in; we paid to take the Main Mall out.

3.  In a few years, urban planning types will look askance at the current fading fad in downtown stadiums, especially knocking down adequate venues with super expensive replacements as playgrounds for the League of Millionaire Club Owners.

And those in the know realize that it's just to keep the concrete flowing for the connected construction companies and their cronies.

[:O]

You really don't know what you are talking about.

Tulsa has the worst stadium in its league.

Time to renovate or move.

Jenks wants the team.  That's at least $100K in sales tax revenue the city stands to lose if they leave (prolly more when you factor in all the sales tax from businesses affected by the stadium).

We need sales tax revenue.

It's always in style.

You have to be a fool not to support this plan.  Everyone on city council was behind the idea -- the three no votes were really more about the process (and perhaps their frustration with the limited power of that body).

If you don't like the city, move.  I'll even pay for the U-haul.  We don't need negative trolls like you.

If you have better idea of how to make Tulsa a better place, please propose it.

The thing is that you don't.  You are 100% negative.  You sit around and complain about everything.

You make up facts, attack good leaders, and routinely exhibit your frustration with you lot in life.

No other explanation.

The funny thing is that you always lose.

We are building the stadium.  It's going to be great.

The city is heading in a positive direction.

And your frequent complaints have had no effect.

Poor Friendly Bear.  

[:O]

Ground Control to Gold:

Those in the KNOW know that Tulsa is in a Real Estate Bust-Out.

The smart money is high-tailing it to the suburbs.

Downtown Tulsa will have some fine edifices, such as BOK Arena, the One Technology Center City Hall, and a new Stadium.

However, with the good, high-paying JOBS being drained out of Tulsa for decades, it is only a matter of time before Downtown dies.

First retail.  To the Suburbs.

Then, good jobs, to the Four Winds.

Except those public venues remaining on TAX-PAYER provided life support, downtown is D.O.A.

The Lorton's, the Schusterman's, the banks, et al, with big Real Estate investments downtown are clinging desparately to the capsizing lifeboat.

And, they want us to KEEP ROWING.

[:O]

[TheArtist]

We will see in 2012. []  

By then downtown will have turned the corner and be on its way with solid growth. "barring WWIII and or an economic collapse"

[Gold]

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by Gold

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by FOTD

quote:Originally posted by Gold

If you don't like it, move.

The leadership is really trying to do something.  

Part of my joy is watching haters like you routinely get angry at all the good.

It's like a cherry on top.

If you have a better idea, try to implement it.

But you don't have ideas, other than wild stories that aren't true and making stuff up.

So, if all you got is crazy, please go be crazy somewhere else.

Try OKC.

[:O]

The LEADERSHIP is trying to make Tulsa like every other city. Why not? The devil takes to unique and different and not to sameness. Monotony is for angels in the outfield not devils in dugouts.

Tulsa's political leadership always seems to be about FIVE years late on adopting what ever Fad other cities have tried and already discarded.

Cases in Point:

1.  Under the Mantra of the 1960's Urban Renewal, Tulsa aggessively and almost completely flattened our old 1920's era warehouse districts near downtown, to create vacant lots and parking lots.

Other cities, like Dallas, Little Rock and OKC took a go SLOWER approach in flattening old, neglected or abandoned downtown buildings.

For instance the Dallas West End, Little Rock River Market, and OKC Bricktown had their genesis in old warehouse districts.

Unfortunately, most of Tulsa's old brick warehouses were flattened long ago.

2.  Our  1970's era Main Mall was a copycat of what many other cities like OKC and Little Rock had already done.

Now, that attempt at "downtown revitalization" is gone.  A Roundtrip hosing of the Tulsa taxpayer; we paid to put the Main Mall in; we paid to take the Main Mall out.

3.  In a few years, urban planning types will look askance at the current fading fad in downtown stadiums, especially knocking down adequate venues with super expensive replacements as playgrounds for the League of Millionaire Club Owners.

And those in the know realize that it's just to keep the concrete flowing for the connected construction companies and their cronies.

[:O]

You really don't know what you are talking about.

Tulsa has the worst stadium in its league.

Time to renovate or move.

Jenks wants the team.  That's at least $100K in sales tax revenue the city stands to lose if they leave (prolly more when you factor in all the sales tax from businesses affected by the stadium).

We need sales tax revenue.

It's always in style.

You have to be a fool not to support this plan.  Everyone on city council was behind the idea -- the three no votes were really more about the process (and perhaps their frustration with the limited power of that body).

If you don't like the city, move.  I'll even pay for the U-haul.  We don't need negative trolls like you.

If you have better idea of how to make Tulsa a better place, please propose it.

The thing is that you don't.  You are 100% negative.  You sit around and complain about everything.

You make up facts, attack good leaders, and routinely exhibit your frustration with you lot in life.

No other explanation.

The funny thing is that you always lose.

We are building the stadium.  It's going to be great.

The city is heading in a positive direction.

And your frequent complaints have had no effect.

Poor Friendly Bear.  

[:O]

Ground Control to Gold:

Those in the KNOW know that Tulsa is in a Real Estate Bust-Out.

The smart money is high-tailing it to the suburbs.

Downtown Tulsa will have some fine edifices, such as BOK Arena, the One Technology Center City Hall, and a new Stadium.

However, with the good, high-paying JOBS being drained out of Tulsa for decades, it is only a matter of time before Downtown dies.

First retail.  To the Suburbs.

Then, good jobs, to the Four Winds.

Except those public venues remaining on TAX-PAYER provided life support, downtown is D.O.A.

The Lorton's, the Schusterman's, the banks, et al, with big Real Estate investments downtown are clinging desparately to the capsizing lifeboat.

And, they want us to KEEP ROWING.

[:O]

Meth is a terrible drug.

Quit using it.

I would say LOL @ Friendly Bear, but it's just sad watching you suffer like this.

I keep trying to put you out of your misery, give you an easy out.

But you keep coming back.  Like an addict.

Let's think about this:

The largest concentration of high quality jobs are in downtown.  They have been for decades?

Why?  Lots of office space and you're near other high quality jobs.

Gas prices are going up (I only say this because I take you don't get out much).

The suburbs nationwide are being second guessed.

Jenks ain't even a top 100 place to live anymore.

The city is really trying to do something -- beyond the edifices you mention,

downtown has most of the region's historic churches,

the central campus of a large community college,

a satellite campus of a large state university that wants to add dorms and students,

lots of fine architecture,

the headquarters of several large companies,

some really nice commercial real estate (BOk),

Cain's Ballroom,

the Brady Theater,

several large festivals a year,

the Greenwood Cultural Center,

The Oklahoma Jazz Hall of Fame,

interconnected to a couple of historic neighborhoods,

a growing set of bar districts that are finally becoming interconnected,

a pretty nice library,

federal and state courthouses,

and it's nowhere near you so it's probably really cool.

You are truly clueless.

If it's so bad for you, get out.

The rest of us want to be here.

I'm sick of braindead, blind bigots like yourself attacking the work the community is trying to do.

I'll pay your bus fair.

Be gone.

[:O]