Obama Proposes *GASP* Faith-Based Initiatives

[Conan71]

FOTD,

Dig your way out of this one:

"The faith based initiatives are bad for public education. You know, the education our citizens who do not attend in private deserve." - FOTD

http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9802&SearchTerms=faith,based,initiatives

"While Obama would expand Bush's efforts to give religious charities more equal footing when getting federal funding, he also would tweak what he would call the President's Council for Faith-Based and Neighborhood Partnerships in ways that divert from Bush's approach.

He would increase spending on social services, starting with a $500 million-a-year program to keep 1 million poor children up to speed on their studies over the summers. He would increase training for charities applying for funding and make it a grass-roots effort. He would elevate the program to be "a critical part of my administration," a reference to criticism that Bush paid barely more than lip service to his effort. "


Holy crap, Obama's all over the place now:

"Obama's high-profile embrace of a key theme of Bush's time in office — the "faith-based initiative" — is just the latest example of him trying to show his centrist side.

Last week, he quoted Reagan, saying "we have to trust but verify" after Bush lifted trade sanctions against North Korea and moved to remove the country from the U.S. terrorism list.

Obama also supported new electronic surveillance rules for the government's eavesdropping program, saying "an important tool in the fight against terrorism will continue," after opposing a similar bill last year. After the Supreme Court overturned the District of Columbia's gun ban, he said he favors both an individual's right to bear firearms as well as a government's right to regulate them.

On Iraq, he has gone from hard-edged, vocal opposition to more nuanced rhetoric that calls for a phased-out troop drawdown that could last 16 months. He also disagreed with the Supreme Court decision last week that struck down a Louisiana law allowing capital punishment for people who rape children under 12. "


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080701/ap_on_el_pr/obama_faith

[we vs us]

Couple of thoughts:

Obama's no dummy.  He realizes he has to counter the whole "most liberalest Senator EVAR!" label, so having faith-based groups serve as the cornerstone of his social agenda is good politics.  It also fits into the Obama "brand:" use grass roots community groups (here, churches) to get things done from the bottom up.

Further, he's making a play for the hearts and minds of younger evangelicals, who tend to support more progressive, if not classically liberal, social policy.  The Democrats have been trying to be more open and honest about religion since Kerry's loss in 2004, and this is an overt statement of solidarity with faiths across the country.

[tim huntzinger]

Obama can choose Saint Paul as his running mate and it will not help with evangelicals.

[FOTD]

Can Obama win over the faithful? The devil could care. The Church escapes tax....to use the institution of the church to enhance taxed based initiatives does not make sense to me if the school teaches faith rather than ethics, creationism rather than science, and/or their way or the highway. We all have this mutual investment in the important highest priority in America (despite some believing it's military). Just because the structure of the current program may need changes does not preclude what eventually comes forward though Presidential leadership and congressional cooperation. I read in that statement something different. Define where "tweak" takes us. Obama will do best for education by looking at what's in place and moving forward on a plan that can be executed instead of more of the same. Perhaps he will use a model of what is working in Tulsa in early childhood development and education programs for a national model.

[Conan71]

What happened to change?  Sounds like more of the McSame to me.

"Meet the new boss...same as the old boss..."

[TheArtist]

Not sure if I understand what "Faith Based Initiatives" includes? Soup kitchens, drug rehabilitaion, counseling, youth programs, etc. But does it also include general education? I can see job training, parenting classes, after school tutoring type educational things, but not funding Faith Based K-12.


I have actually "evolved" my thoughts on churches and their place in helping the poor, sick (psychologically and physically) and needy, as it pertains to government funding. Those are of course the founding charges of the church anyway, but I was always hesitant on the use of government funds being given to the churches for such things. But I have seen studies that suggest faith based initiatives that reach out to certain types of people can be quite effective. It seems that when people are in a "down and out" place in their lives, the language of faith, speaks to them, connects with them, and can help them begin to walk down the road of recovery and betterment. Though I may cringe at the "supernatural" type language being used, I am not the one they would be helping, I am at a different place in my life.  (I Am, I Am That I Am, I Am What you Need Me to Be?... for those theologians in the crowd) A logical, business model approach to a person who is experiencing mental stresses and discordant thought processes needs to start with the basics and get survival down. If its needed and it works, use it.

Needless to say, I think there are definitely some programs that would be perfectly suitable to have government funding go towards, yet some not.

[Conan71]

One of my favorite political quips has always been: "Remember when our government governed and Churches provided Charity?"

I'm tired of our government provided and poorly-managed charity system.  I'm sick of Christian elitists trying to run the country from the pulpit.  I'm tired of politicians buying votes by pissing more and more of our hard-earned money into programs for nothing more than a coveted job worth $180K plus per year and a lot of perks.

Sorry, I just don't believe the sound bites anymore when a politician or aspiring politician says they care about others.  American politics these days is a self-serving venture.  Take a look at the financials of any member of Congress and I'd be willing to bet you will find members have become a lot wealthier while in office.  

Democrats have just speared Bush over his version of these initiatives, now Obama is on the bandwagon.  Personally, I thought Bush's initiatives were good in theory initially.  I thought it would lead to less government dependence.  Nope, poor in execution.  I don't think the gov't should be doling out funds to "faith-based" groups.  FAIC, that's what their tax exempt status should allow for.  Hand charity back over to the churches and temples but not in the form of a check, quit spending it and quit taxing it, the money will wind up where it belongs.  God only knows how much money is wasted on unnecessary layers of administration for these programs.

I think FOTD and I agree on the point government should not be handing off money to tax-exempt religious organizations, though it's hard to follow him at times.

For the record, I'm not a McCain supporter nor an Obama supporter, my horse left the race a few months ago and yes, he was a Democrat.

How did Obama and his staff arrive at a figure of $500mm?  Is Obama being honest and speaking his conscience or pandering?  Men and women of the cloth are supposed to be apolitical, yet we all know how much influence a pastor, priest, or rabbi can be.  Start throwing money around like that, and you might just get some preachers telling their flock how much they admire the courage of this Obama fellow.  I have personally heard the virtues of Barack Obama extolled from the pulpit here in Tulsa.

It's a marketing campaign from here on out.  Focus groups on how to bring conservatives into the Obama fold, Hillary supporters into the McCain fold.

It would be laughable if our Federal Government weren't so ****ed up.  We need real change right now, not chump change.

[TheArtist]

Was the 500 mill for a "faith based" thing? Sounded like the summer studies program was not related to that?

[Conan71]

Artist, sounds that way to me, but between two guys who desparately want to be President and a media constantly goading them and and turning their interpretations into news, it's hard for me to honestly say.

From the previously quoted article, the next paragraph:

"Obama also chose a different emphasis for why religious charities are an important answer to solving poverty and other social problems: because they better know the people who are hurting, instead of Bush's argument that religion itself is a transforming power the government must not be afraid to harness."

Interesting that you mentioned something along the lines of faith being a transforming power for those in need.  I believe in that concept, I don't think the government needs to be anywhere near that though.

[TheArtist]

Interesting article.


Prevalence Of Religious Congregations Affects Mortality Rates

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/07/080703145157.htm

I have always wondered why, in such a religious area, the buckle of the Bible belt, that we have such poor health, high poverty, drug abuse, divorce, child neglect, etc. etc. My suspicion is that its not the churches per say, but that the people who FORM the local churches, create churches of a particular type. The types of churches reflect the community. Within the "local mix" there seems to be a unique and definite shift or weight towards a more conservative/fundamentalist strain. Even those branches that would be considered mainline or evangelical lean more towards a conservative/fundamentalist view. A Methodist Church here may tend to be (though not in all cases) more conservative and fundamentalist than one in another part of the country. And your more likely to find particular types of churches here than in other parts of the country.


My hunch that the community forms the churches, or a person finds a church they like, that fits them and their personality and thoughts,,, is different from this article which suggests that the churches influence the community. I am sure there are effects both ways. Which is greater, and in which instance, is tricky to tease out.

But what is even more curious to me, is how there are so many people of certain types here? How did they get here? When? Why? Our history isnt that long, so how is it that our population shows this particular slant? Whats the story thats made us the way we are in this instance? The histories I have read of Tulsa and Oklahoma dont seem to offer that understanding.  

[we vs us]

quote:Originally posted by tim huntzinger

Obama can choose Saint Paul as his running mate and it will not help with evangelicals.

I actually think you're right about this.  But there're some surprising opportunities with evangelicals -- especially the younger crowd -- and if Obama can even just weaken their traditional GOP ties a bit, that's a success in my book.  

I'm with Conan as far as federal money going to churches.  I like Obama's way of thinking compared to Bush's, but the Gov. ought to stay away from religion as much possible.

[FOTD]

quote:Originally posted by we vs us

quote:Originally posted by tim huntzinger

Obama can choose Saint Paul as his running mate and it will not help with evangelicals.

I actually think you're right about this.  But there're some surprising opportunities with evangelicals -- especially the younger crowd -- and if Obama can even just weaken their traditional GOP ties a bit, that's a success in my book.  

I'm with Conan as far as federal money going to churches.  I like Obama's way of thinking compared to Bush's, but the Gov. ought to stay away from religion as much possible.

The vote tallies are being micro managed.....we just need %15 off the evangelic block in some states to make a difference. It's funny when people tell me how close the national numbers are.....

Landslide coming

BTW Conan, nothing wrong with fine tuning the issues. But for the Repiglicans to accuse Obama of "Flip-Flopping" when they have "Mr. Tell Me The Day And I'll Tell You My Latest Position" McCain running for President is the height of hypocrisy.

[inteller]

your beloved fruit is not going to yank troops out of iraq like he said he would..what do you think about that?

[FOTD]

quote:Originally posted by inteller

your beloved fruit is not going to yank troops out of iraq like he said he would..what do you think about that?

That is not true. He will pull down troops as necessary and he will end the war.

[inteller]

quote:Originally posted by FOTD

quote:Originally posted by inteller

your beloved fruit is not going to yank troops out of iraq like he said he would..what do you think about that?

That is not true. He will pull down troops as necessary and he will end the war.

oh man, I feel sorry for you...