PLANiTULSA - Get Involved and Think Big!

[joiei]

quote:Originally posted by MichaelBates

quote:Originally posted by RecycleMichael

Now that I live in East Tulsa...

I have to say that the people in my neighborhood are mostly not the type who want to get involved in a long range city planning process.

Mr Bates, do I detect a touch of jealousy that you have not been appointed to any city post?  Let's look at this, would I want to appoint a progressive looking person or do I want to appoint a negative nellie?  I will leave it for you to figure it out.
Don't you live in Al Nichols's neighborhood? There's someone from east Tulsa who is actively involved in planning issues.

Jim Mautino and Jennifer Weaver are another couple of east Tulsa neighborhood activists who would have made a valuable contribution to the process. Likewise there a number of neighborhood leaders in Layman Van Acres who were overlooked. And there's this former councilor who has been head of the Sequoyah Neighborhood Association for many years -- fellow named Turner.

I don't see any names on the list associated with the South Tulsa Citizens Coalition.

There are many, many people in this city who are vocally and visibly engaged with local government. But they are overlooked when board appointments are made because they don't travel in the right social circles. If they are considered at all for an appointment, they're swiftly dismissed as troublemakers.

It concerns me that anyone could look at that map -- or similar maps of city board and commission appointments -- and not see a problem that needs to be solved. Our midtown mayors have a blind spot. They could turn to the City Council to help them look beyond the same old social set.

There are engaged, intelligent citizens out there ready to help. The problem, I suppose, is they might stir things up more than some people would like.

quote:
I think there are some advantages to living east. My wife and I get appointed to stuff more than we should, the kids in the neighborhood who apply to magnet schools always get in, and we already have wide roads before we even need them.

That's a great deal for whoever appoints you to something. They get credit for putting an east Tulsan on the committee, without having to infect their committee with that nasty *shudder* east Tulsa attitude.

[RecycleMichael]

Gee Michael.

Do you really think it would have been a good idea to put Jim Mautino and Roscoe Turner on the planning committee?

I don't. They both have quite the reputation for arguing and more importantly, have had the opportunity to serve the community already.

I am actually surprised that you have done all this research to plot out the residences of a hundred citizens. You seem to being looking for an excuse to find fault with PlaniTulsa before it ever begins. And another thing...aren't you a mid-towner as well?

The fact that you researched how many of them are republican and democrat leads me to believe that you also think the city planning process should have some partisan issues. I don't. Is there a republican angle to infill? Is there a democrat way to provide transportation?

There is no perfect way to get everybody you want engaged at the right time. But there are going to be plenty of opportunity for everybody to be part of this planning process. There are big public input meetings already planned. There are ways to submit ideas online. Even TulsaNow is hosting a meeting with the planners in less than two weeks.

Maybe you should work the door at the TulsaNow meeting. Make everybody give their address and political affiliation before they enter the room so we can pre-judge their intent.

[booWorld]

quote:Originally posted by RecycleMichael

Now that I live in East Tulsa...

I have to say that the people in my neighborhood are mostly not the type who want to get involved in a long range city planning process...

Most people from any neighborhood in Tulsa don't want to get involved in the planning process.  Most people don't care about it.

I've attended two or three meetings related to the Comp Plan update, and I've seen a number of regular forum posters who weren't bashful about saying what was on their minds.  During one meeting, we kept the City's planning staff very busy writing our thoughts and ideas down almost continually during the entire meeting.  And we were saying things that many people at INCOG, TCC, and DTU would rather not be said.  That didn't matter to the City planners.  They recorded our ideas with almost zero filtering or pre-judging.  They even allowed us to continue to write down more ideas near the end of the meeting, and some of us did.

My advice is to attend in person when possible.  Take your own cameras and audio recorders.  Even if you are passionate about an issue from the past (such as a zoning case), try to separate your emotions from the task at hand, which is helping to create a new Comprehensive Plan.

Think about the things which bother you the most about Tulsa.  Think about how to make things better.  If you don't have time to attend meetings in person, then email your ideas to the PLANiTULSA website and send a copy to Urban Tulsa Weekly.  

There will be spin.  There will be cronyism.  Some areas of the city will get more emphasis than others.  Some issues will get more emphasis than others.  Perhaps that's not the way things ought to be, but it's the way things are.

I think Michael Bates' map is very interesting.  I wasn't particularly surprised by it, except I do wonder why there seem to be a couple of advisors who don't live in Tulsa.  I think the City Council should have had a chance to be involved with the selection of the advisors, but I'm guessing that the overall list would have much the same anyway.

As wary as I am, I haven't given up on the Comp Plan update process yet.  It's much too soon for that.  

[brunoflipper]

quote:Originally posted by MichaelBates

quote:Originally posted by RecycleMichael

Now that I live in East Tulsa...

I have to say that the people in my neighborhood are mostly not the type who want to get involved in a long range city planning process.

Don't you live in Al Nichols's neighborhood? There's someone from east Tulsa who is actively involved in planning issues.

Jim Mautino and Jennifer Weaver are another couple of east Tulsa neighborhood activists who would have made a valuable contribution to the process. Likewise there a number of neighborhood leaders in Layman Van Acres who were overlooked. And there's this former councilor who has been head of the Sequoyah Neighborhood Association for many years -- fellow named Turner.

I don't see any names on the list associated with the South Tulsa Citizens Coalition.

There are many, many people in this city who are vocally and visibly engaged with local government. But they are overlooked when board appointments are made because they don't travel in the right social circles. If they are considered at all for an appointment, they're swiftly dismissed as troublemakers.

It concerns me that anyone could look at that map -- or similar maps of city board and commission appointments -- and not see a problem that needs to be solved. Our midtown mayors have a blind spot. They could turn to the City Council to help them look beyond the same old social set.

There are engaged, intelligent citizens out there ready to help. The problem, I suppose, is they might stir things up more than some people would like.

quote:
I think there are some advantages to living east. My wife and I get appointed to stuff more than we should, the kids in the neighborhood who apply to magnet schools always get in, and we already have wide roads before we even need them.

That's a great deal for whoever appoints you to something. They get credit for putting an east Tulsan on the committee, without having to infect their committee with that nasty *shudder* east Tulsa attitude.

bang the drum... you got picked, correct?
but the process was not good enough and i suspect that unless you are in charge nothing is ever fair enough...

you are always stumping, forever on the campaign trail to nowhere...
you are a ****ing shill...
you write that blog and "work" for campaigns...
you are bought and paid for by the repubs in this town...
you spend so much damn time writing a blog and ut articles, are you independently wealthy? come on who signs your paychecks?
YOU ARE A SHILL.

in all fairness, if that is how you make your money, i'm fine with it... but you should disclose it...

[MichaelBates]

quote:Originally posted by RecycleMichael

Gee Michael.

Do you really think it would have been a good idea to put Jim Mautino and Roscoe Turner on the planning committee?

I don't. They both have quite the reputation for arguing and more importantly, have had the opportunity to serve the community already.

Oh, dear, we mustn't have people who argue involved in the political process.

quote:Originally posted by RecycleMichael

I am actually surprised that you have done all this research to plot out the residences of a hundred citizens. You seem to being looking for an excuse to find fault with PlaniTulsa before it ever begins. And another thing...aren't you a mid-towner as well?

I did the research to confirm or refute the impression I had just from looking around the room.

I want PLANiTULSA to work. I want the whole community -- even the arguers from west, north, and east Tulsa -- to be involved in developing a solid plan with broad community support. I want this to work, and if I see things going awry, I'm not going to wait to call foul. That's precisely what John Fregonese charged us to do at the first meeting -- to let the planning team know if people or points of view were being missed.

That's why I'm offended at Mayor Taylor's administration treating this process as if it belongs to them alone. She is getting this process off on the wrong foot.

This is the bottom line: The advisers and partners should be a fairly representative sample of the people of Tulsa. The group selected by Mayor Taylor and Susan Neal is not representative.

I do live in Midtown, Michael, although in the less fashionable eastern part. I grew up in far east Tulsa and my parents still live there.

quote:Originally posted by RecycleMichael

The fact that you researched how many of them are republican and democrat leads me to believe that you also think the city planning process should have some partisan issues. I don't. Is there a republican angle to infill? Is there a democrat way to provide transportation?

Conservative and liberal political philosophies do have an effect on how you approach governance at every level, or at least it should. There are too many Republicans who want government to be just big enough to subsidize their own businesses.

I included the partisan breakdown because it's an objective way to compare the distribution of this group against the city as a whole.

quote:Originally posted by RecycleMichael

There is no perfect way to get everybody you want engaged at the right time. But there are going to be plenty of opportunity for everybody to be part of this planning process. There are big public input meetings already planned. There are ways to submit ideas online. Even TulsaNow is hosting a meeting with the planners in less than two weeks.

I hope everyone participates. But here's how it usually works in Tulsa: there's plenty of opportunity for public input, but in the end the decisions are made by a small group. 1100 turned out for Bill LaFortune's Vision summit, but all the real decisions were made by the "Leadership Team." It matters greatly who is guiding the process and involved in making the final decisions.

To Brunoflipper: I make my living in software engineering for a manufacturing company that is completely uninvolved in politics. And that's all I'll say to someone who won't post under his real name.

[brunoflipper]

quote:Originally posted by MichaelBates

quote:Originally posted by RecycleMichael

Gee Michael.

Do you really think it would have been a good idea to put Jim Mautino and Roscoe Turner on the planning committee?

I don't. They both have quite the reputation for arguing and more importantly, have had the opportunity to serve the community already.

Oh, dear, we mustn't have people who argue involved in the political process.

quote:Originally posted by RecycleMichael

I am actually surprised that you have done all this research to plot out the residences of a hundred citizens. You seem to being looking for an excuse to find fault with PlaniTulsa before it ever begins. And another thing...aren't you a mid-towner as well?

I did the research to confirm or refute the impression I had just from looking around the room.

I want PLANiTULSA to work. I want the whole community -- even the arguers from west, north, and east Tulsa -- to be involved in developing a solid plan with broad community support. I want this to work, and if I see things going awry, I'm not going to wait to call foul. That's precisely what John Fregonese charged us to do at the first meeting -- to let the planning team know if people or points of view were being missed.

That's why I'm offended at Mayor Taylor's administration treating this process as if it belongs to them alone. She is getting this process off on the wrong foot.

This is the bottom line: The advisers and partners should be a fairly representative sample of the people of Tulsa. The group selected by Mayor Taylor and Susan Neal is not representative.

I do live in Midtown, Michael, although in the less fashionable eastern part. I grew up in far east Tulsa and my parents still live there.

quote:Originally posted by RecycleMichael

The fact that you researched how many of them are republican and democrat leads me to believe that you also think the city planning process should have some partisan issues. I don't. Is there a republican angle to infill? Is there a democrat way to provide transportation?

Conservative and liberal political philosophies do have an effect on how you approach governance at every level, or at least it should. There are too many Republicans who want government to be just big enough to subsidize their own businesses.

I included the partisan breakdown because it's an objective way to compare the distribution of this group against the city as a whole.

quote:Originally posted by RecycleMichael

There is no perfect way to get everybody you want engaged at the right time. But there are going to be plenty of opportunity for everybody to be part of this planning process. There are big public input meetings already planned. There are ways to submit ideas online. Even TulsaNow is hosting a meeting with the planners in less than two weeks.

I hope everyone participates. But here's how it usually works in Tulsa: there's plenty of opportunity for public input, but in the end the decisions are made by a small group. 1100 turned out for Bill LaFortune's Vision summit, but all the real decisions were made by the "Leadership Team." It matters greatly who is guiding the process and involved in making the final decisions.

To Brunoflipper: I make my living in software engineering for a manufacturing company that is completely uninvolved in politics. And that's all I'll say to someone who won't post under his real name.

since when do you limit responding only to those who do not use a pseudonym?...

you won't deny being a paid poster/blogger because you can't...

[inteller]

bottom line is the maps don't lie, and all of you supporters of this sham have no way to refute it other than stupid quips like "well midtown is just more involved"  that is the biggest load of rubbish.

I encourage Bates the cartographer to keep making maps like this whenever he can get his hands on the addresses.  I think over time, a series of damning maps like this can perfectly illustrate how disenfranchised large portions of this city are.

[RecycleMichael]

Thank you for responding Michael.

I do think that some care should be taken on putting together a group and both the people we mentioned above argue way too much. Both of them cried conspiracy often and made personal attacks on their opponents. There is a difference in arguing and making everybody in the room mad.

I know you want to the process to work. We have known each other long enough to know that you really want to make positive changes to Tulsa and are very knowledgable on city development issues. But I think you are trying to make point here against the Mayor and the planning team before the process has a chance.

I also disagree that you posted the political affiliation as "an objective way to compare the distribution of this group against the city as a whole." You are a party operative and continually use your blog and UTW column to endorse republicans and denounce democrats. I think you see partisan politics were others do not.

Don't pre-judge this process using a previous Mayor's public input process. That was completely different and involved political people from the beginning. This time, a world class planner is involved, there have been numerous meetings with minutes readily available online and everything happening is being followed by the media.

If anything, that was titled "Vision" and this one is more like "Hearing". Don't attack it and act like it is "Smell".

[cdowni]

according to the map, south tulsa has 6 advisors, and east tulsa has 2, and midtown has 10. that seems about right to me...

the way i see it, there is more to plan for in midtown than in south tulsa; historic preservation, in-fill, developments that fit in properly.

south tulsa will always be suburbia, no matter what. they don't need to worry about preservation or infill or developments that fit, cause it all fits.

midtown is in a much more pivotal time right now. it can either go the suburban route and loose all of it's character, or it can put in place laws to help keep it a great area.

i just think midtown has alot more to worry about.

[inteller]

quote:Originally posted by cdowni

according to the map, south tulsa has 6 advisors, and east tulsa has 2, and midtown has 10. that seems about right to me...

the way i see it, there is more to plan for in midtown than in south tulsa; historic preservation, in-fill, developments that fit in properly.

south tulsa will always be suburbia, no matter what. they don't need to worry about preservation or infill or developments that fit, cause it all fits.

midtown is in a much more pivotal time right now. it can either go the suburban route and loose all of it's character, or it can put in place laws to help keep it a great area.

i just think midtown has alot more to worry about.

in that case then just call this PLANMidtown and only apply this play to that area.

[MichaelBates]

quote:Originally posted by RecycleMichael

Thank you for responding Michael.

I do think that some care should be taken on putting together a group and both the people we mentioned above argue way too much. Both of them cried conspiracy often and made personal attacks on their opponents. There is a difference in arguing and making everybody in the room mad.

That's pretty rich, given that I'm being accused here of being paid to write what I do (I'm not), and what I've written about the unrepresentative nature of this body is being met with personal attacks rather than factual rebuttal. (I do get paid by Urban Tulsa Weekly to produce a column each week, but what I write is entirely up to me.)

quote:Originally posted by RecycleMichael

I know you want to the process to work. We have known each other long enough to know that you really want to make positive changes to Tulsa and are very knowledgable on city development issues. But I think you are trying to make point here against the Mayor and the planning team before the process has a chance.

I'm trying to keep the process from starting off in the wrong direction.

quote:Originally posted by RecycleMichael

I also disagree that you posted the political affiliation as "an objective way to compare the distribution of this group against the city as a whole." You are a party operative and continually use your blog and UTW column to endorse republicans and denounce democrats. I think you see partisan politics were others do not.

I am a Republican because I am a conservative, and I endorse candidates who reflect my perspective on government. I've denounced plenty of Republicans and praised plenty of Democrats. It's just that the Democrats I like are the ones you consider troublemakers.

If a Republican mayor were in charge of the comprehensive plan, and he appointed a steering committee that was two-thirds Republican, you (and the Whirled editorial board) would be crying foul and accusing him of partisanship. When Mayor LaFortune appointed Republicans to his personal staff and his kitchen cabinet, the Whirled editorialists called them "partisan spearchuckers" [sic].

quote:Originally posted by RecycleMichael

Don't pre-judge this process using a previous Mayor's public input process. That was completely different and involved political people from the beginning. This time, a world class planner is involved, there have been numerous meetings with minutes readily available online and everything happening is being followed by the media.

The same pattern we saw in Vision 2025 was there in 1999-2000 with the Convention and Tourism Task Force. We all went to the first meeting at the Pavilion and signed up for committees, but when the "wrong" people wound up on the research committee, the people in charge created a new committee (headed by Sharon King Davis, of course) that would give them the answer they were looking for. Hap Bradley warned me after that first meeting that the fix was in, but I went to dozens of committee meetings anyway. Different mayor, different party, different gender -- same failed Money Belt approach to decision-making.

quote:Originally posted by RecycleMichael

If anything, that was titled "Vision" and this one is more like "Hearing". Don't attack it and act like it is "Smell".

I think the Fregonese team intends for it to be hearing, and I think they are hearing. The smell is coming from the 11th floor of City Hall.

I get the impression that the Mayor's administration and you and others here think that voices like Jim Mautino's and Roscoe Turner's aren't worthy of being heard, because they get passionate and sometimes angry when they see our city's leaders leading our city in the wrong direction.

[TheArtist]

I dont know how these people were chosen, but I do think there should have been more balance in where the people came from.

In response to the person who said mid-town probably needs more people because it is seeing the most changes, infill, etc...  I personally believe all parts of town need to be included especially South Tulsa. If anything South Tulsa has more potential problems and opportunities. Imagine the area around the mall with more connected through streets, with redevelopment that fronts the streets. Imagine 71st having buildings on either side with similar set backs, a sidewalk in front, etc. That area will change and infill. How we direct that can be very important. Would love to see that area become a dense, mixed use, pedestrian friendly area that could say after 30 years or so be connected to some sort of rail perhaps. As the suburbs continue their sprawl and pull outward, who knows what will happen to the 71st and Memorial/Mingo area? It could go downhill and the city in 20 years be faced with revitalization challenges in that area. But if we start allowing for and encouraging the right kind of developments, streets, sidewalks, connectivity between developments, etc. the area will be more likely to continue to improve.

I think there should have been a purposeful attempt to get a more balanced showing of people from all over the city. I have learned just as much from people I disagree with and argue with as those I agree with. We need to hear as many different voices as possible from different perspectives.

Was looking at a population distribution map of Tulsa, and there are a lot of people who live in East Tulsa. I dont even think that RecycleMichael is a typical voice for that area. There seem to be a lot of hispanic and oriental people in that area. Lots of poorer working class people. What are their concerns and needs? How can the city grow in ways that will take those things into consideration?

Mid-town and downtown naturally get a lot of consideration. Most people know about it, the proplems and challenges it faces. I am clueless as to what East Tulsa is about. I am not a suburban type person so my perspecive on what happens in South Tulsa may be far different than those who live there.

If I were on this board, and I saw that map, I would volunteer to step down in order that someone from an underrepresented part of town could take my place. It would be the right and honorable thing to do.

[RecycleMichael]

Again you are using the past two Mayors to distrust this administration. I guess that makes sense without knowing the particulars, but I feel different with the approach that PlaniTulsa has taken.

Look back at the particulars of the two you mentioned. One was run by the Chamber and very limited in input and make up. It was about tourism and commerce (probably the very definition of the Chamber's job to most folk). It was in a poor room for discussion (a couple hundred people in a room built for thousands) and it immediately split us into loosely defined groups. A plan was scribbled onto white boards and we never met again and no other input was sought.

Side Note: I love Hap Bradley. Her son and my younger sister were best of friends in high school.

Your second example had a similar script. It had many more people involved, but there were no follow-up meetings and the notes were compiled and re-written later by a group led by a previous Mayor. I think both earlier attempts tried to capture input from all, but lacked the pre-planning and follow-up.

PlaniTulsa has been different from day one. I have participated in three different meetings and I have seen city planners all over town asking for input for over twelve months already. They have hired a world class guy (his firm has brilliant work for some of the most successful cities in the country) and they have formed teams of citizens before the big September community event. They have even agreed to do early community meetings this month like the TulsaNow one on July 15th at OSU-Tulsa.

This one seems to have learned from the other two you mentioned. If you really feel the fix is in before we even have the big input opportunities planned, I feel sorry for you. You have the abilty and the resources to really make this a positive thing and I guess that is why the Mayor appointed you to help.

You and your blog and weekly UTW column are potentially powerful ways to communicate. PlaniTulsa is listening.

[inteller]

you don't need two past administrations to distrust the current one.  just one scene of her giving away 7.1 million in taxpayer dollars is enough to create distrust.

[waterboy]

I wonder what the map would have looked like if you used different criteria other than address and party affiliation. Did you consider using any other criteria? Like education, place of birth, age, past participation in planning efforts, income, occupations and previous addresses.

It seems to me you went looking for a spotted horse and thats the only horse you found.