PLANiTULSA - Get Involved and Think Big!

[Rico]

I would imagine RM and MB...and others could go on indefinitely on the subject of whether or not the Mayor's choices for the panel were correct or not....

They both have very valid points.

The problem for PlaniTulsa...... may be just this Tulsa being what the plan is designed for.....

Most of the cities that I have looked at, that are far more advanced than Tulsa, seemed to have one thing in common. Their City plan has a separate individualized plan for each of the neighborhoods of which it is comprised.
In this regard M Bates is absolutely correct. The panel should have one person from each and every neighborhood or neighborhood association. They know what their neighborhoods want to be. Many neighborhoods in Tulsa, have in the past, put together plans or planners for the COT have put together plans. Very Good plans...
Only to have just a portion adopted by the COT. The "Pearl District", minus the form based codes trial, seemed to have more success than others. One of the plans I refer to was written by a gentleman that is on the panel. This plan and others were only given lip service and now decorate the bookcases of the offices at INCOG.

I do think RM is correct that the Mayor chose what she thought would work. The impasse will come as you try and define a plan that works for all of Tulsa...
I have read that comparing Tulsa to California is not a good comparison. While this may be true in many respects in one it fits. An area the size of Tulsa, in California, would be at least three if not four separate cities. What works in a College town like Claremont CA would not work in the Pomona CA.. These two towns are side by side.

Those expecting an overall enthusiasm to occur, in light of the PlaniTulsa endeavor,
may well be surprised to find that "One size does not fit all".    

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

I wonder what the map would have looked like if you used different criteria other than address and party affiliation. Did you consider using any other criteria? Like education, place of birth, age, past participation in planning efforts, income, occupations and previous addresses.

It seems to me you went looking for a spotted horse and thats the only horse you found.

edit/ I voiced many of these complaints about the v2025 and river development forums but to deaf ears. Every commission, authority, board, or study group in this city seems loaded with friends 'o whatever leaders are in office. You get stupid outcomes that look suspiciously like what the leaders favored. Like the lack of locks and dams on the river.[B)]

Even though I sympathize with criticisms that this planning effort is flawed by partisanship and cronyism, I'm not sure we want a perfect representation OF Tulsa on the committee. It would be good to have INPUT from a sample representative of Tulsa but frankly there are lots of areas that rely on their elected officials because they are simply uninformed, uneducated or too busy staying alive to get involved. But you put Roscoe or Mautino on a committee with regular Joe's and you aren't going to get much new thinking. The joe's will cave in to who they percieve to be smarter, and who are stronger and more comfortable speaking in front of groups.

Its an effort to plan which even if flawed is better than no effort at all. Just tweak the list a bit see if we can do better.

[inteller]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

I wonder what the map would have looked like if you used different criteria other than address and party affiliation. Did you consider using any other criteria? Like education, place of birth, age, past participation in planning efforts, income, occupations and previous addresses.

It seems to me you went looking for a spotted horse and thats the only horse you found.

actually the map only showed address location and whether they were a planner or advisor.  that is damning itself.  i could care less if it showed party affiliation.  they could all be democrats for all I care as long as they are distributed equally throughout the city.

[inteller]

quote:Originally posted by Rico


I have read that comparing Tulsa to California is not a good comparison. While this may be true in many respects in one it fits. An area the size of Tulsa, in California, would be at least three if not four separate cities. What works in a College town like Claremont CA would not work in the Pomona CA.. These two towns are side by side.
black]    

funny you should mention that.

I think it is time to consider the idea of breaking TUlsa into several municipalities.  Downtown and Midtown can still be called Tulsa, but the rest of us can break away from undo influence and chart our own planning and administration.  In fact, just left south Tulsa deannex into either Jenks, Bixby, or Broken Arrow...because their way of running goverment (transparently, less corrupt) is more in line with what South and East Tulsans are after.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by inteller

quote:Originally posted by Rico


I have read that comparing Tulsa to California is not a good comparison. While this may be true in many respects in one it fits. An area the size of Tulsa, in California, would be at least three if not four separate cities. What works in a College town like Claremont CA would not work in the Pomona CA.. These two towns are side by side.
black]    

funny you should mention that.

I think it is time to consider the idea of breaking TUlsa into several municipalities.  Downtown and Midtown can still be called Tulsa, but the rest of us can break away from undo influence and chart our own planning and administration.  In fact, just left south Tulsa deannex into either Jenks, Bixby, or Broken Arrow...because their way of running goverment (transparently, less corrupt) is more in line with what South and East Tulsans are after.

Get a grip. Do you know any past members of their administrations involved in either planning or operations? I do and they are just as much or more corrupt than Tulsa. Their chamber is just as asinine as ours. Their fire department uses ours to rescue on the river.  

As far as moving into their municipality do it as fast as possible. While you're at it become your own state in the country of Bur Bia. We'll get by somehow without having to expand your roadways, subsidize your lifestyle based on cars and shopping and your IVI bridges. But don't come looking to work in our part of town without identification and money for user fees. Expect your water and sewer rates to explode so that they truly reflect their cost. Better plan on expanding those walls around your neighborhoods to surround your new city as well so that undesirable midtowners can be kept out.

Don't overestimate your contribution to the city. We'll get by. You'll flounder.

[inteller]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

quote:Originally posted by inteller

quote:Originally posted by Rico


I have read that comparing Tulsa to California is not a good comparison. While this may be true in many respects in one it fits. An area the size of Tulsa, in California, would be at least three if not four separate cities. What works in a College town like Claremont CA would not work in the Pomona CA.. These two towns are side by side.
black]    

funny you should mention that.

I think it is time to consider the idea of breaking TUlsa into several municipalities.  Downtown and Midtown can still be called Tulsa, but the rest of us can break away from undo influence and chart our own planning and administration.  In fact, just left south Tulsa deannex into either Jenks, Bixby, or Broken Arrow...because their way of running goverment (transparently, less corrupt) is more in line with what South and East Tulsans are after.

Get a grip. Do you know any past members of their administrations involved in either planning or operations? I do and they are just as much or more corrupt than Tulsa. Their chamber is just as asinine as ours. Their fire department uses ours to rescue on the river.  

As far as moving into their municipality do it as fast as possible. While you're at it become your own state in the country of Bur Bia. We'll get by somehow without having to expand your roadways, subsidize your lifestyle based on cars and shopping and your IVI bridges. But don't come looking to work in our part of town without identification and money for user fees. Expect your water and sewer rates to explode so that they truly reflect their cost. Better plan on expanding those walls around your neighborhoods to surround your new city as well so that undesirable midtowners can be kept out.

Don't overestimate your contribution to the city. We'll get by. You'll flounder.

No, don't have to worry about exploding water rates, Tulsa does a good job of giving its water away[}:)]

[Rico]

quote:Originally posted by inteller

quote:Originally posted by Rico


I have read that comparing Tulsa to California is not a good comparison. While this may be true in many respects in one it fits. An area the size of Tulsa, in California, would be at least three if not four separate cities. What works in a College town like Claremont CA would not work in the Pomona CA.. These two towns are side by side.
   

funny you should mention that.

I think it is time to consider the idea of breaking TUlsa into several municipalities.  Downtown and Midtown can still be called Tulsa, but the rest of us can break away from undo influence and chart our own planning and administration.  In fact, just left south Tulsa deannex into either Jenks, Bixby, or Broken Arrow...because their way of running goverment (transparently, less corrupt) is more in line with what South and East Tulsans are after.

If you are serious I would support whatever it takes....
[]

[inteller]

quote:Originally posted by Rico

quote:Originally posted by inteller

quote:Originally posted by Rico


I have read that comparing Tulsa to California is not a good comparison. While this may be true in many respects in one it fits. An area the size of Tulsa, in California, would be at least three if not four separate cities. What works in a College town like Claremont CA would not work in the Pomona CA.. These two towns are side by side.
   

funny you should mention that.

I think it is time to consider the idea of breaking TUlsa into several municipalities.  Downtown and Midtown can still be called Tulsa, but the rest of us can break away from undo influence and chart our own planning and administration.  In fact, just left south Tulsa deannex into either Jenks, Bixby, or Broken Arrow...because their way of running goverment (transparently, less corrupt) is more in line with what South and East Tulsans are after.

If you are serious I would support whatever it takes....
[]

oh i'm serious...but I have no idea what it would take...just hashing out the utilities would be a major undertaking.  i think a simple start would be deannexing everything south and east of 169/creek turnpike.  That is only about a mile or so in some places.

[MichaelBates]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

I wonder what the map would have looked like if you used different criteria other than address and party affiliation. Did you consider using any other criteria? Like education, place of birth, age, past participation in planning efforts, income, occupations and previous addresses.

It seems to me you went looking for a spotted horse and thats the only horse you found.

Address and party affiliation is public record for registered voters, as is date of birth. The rest is not public record, although there may be clues in news stories about all of the above. I did try to identify what each person was notable for, based on news stories, and although I didn't tally the results, my impression is that most of the Advisers and Partners are employed in the non-profit sector or the development industry.

It would be interesting to compute the DSW index for each Partner and Adviser. (That's the number of mentions someone has had in Danna Sue Walker's column.)

[AVERAGE JOE]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

I wonder what the map would have looked like if you used different criteria other than address and party affiliation. Did you consider using any other criteria? Like education, place of birth, age, past participation in planning efforts, income, occupations and previous addresses.

It seems to me you went looking for a spotted horse and thats the only horse you found.

Quite perceptive. I doubt a person's residence was the criteria used for inviting them. Isn't it possible that the leadership of specific organizations were invited to participate, regardless of where their respective directors live?

Since Mr. Bates has done such extensive research, perhaps he could list the occupation of these people. Might explain quite a lot. For instance, the person who lives in Sand Springs -- what organization or company does he or she represent?

[PonderInc]

I think it's fine to question the geographic diversity of the PLANiTULSA partners/advisors committee. (Go democracy!)  

Here's my concern: those who decry that the system is "fixed" and suggest that nothing good can come of it are working against their own goals.  This tactic will only act to DISCOURAGE people from south/east/north/west to attend and play a role.  You are basically telling people "don't even bother, it's all rigged."  The sad irony of that is that if they DON'T participate, THEIR VOICES WON'T BE HEARD!"  Pre-emptive accusations of unfairness will only create a self-fullfilling prophecy where people from some districts will opt out and be under-represented.  Is this what you want?

Please question the advisors/partners if you want.  But be aware that the real power of this process lies with the (hopefully thousands of) people who will show up to community workshops to get involved.  If you truly care about everyone having a voice, please do your best to encourage participation!  Don't tell people to stay home, b/c that only results in failure to include the very people we need the most.

I am confident that MBates wants the best for Tulsa neighborhoods.  I believe he WILL encourage people to attend and get involved.  It's the "naysayer-only" folks, with nothing constructive to add, who do the damage.  

By the way, there will be 2 city-wide workshops, and 9 additional neighborhood workshops (one for each council district) to ensure that all areas of town are represented in PLANiTULSA.  This will allow neighbors to offer input on their specific area of town, as well as their vision for the entire city.

TulsaNow has also sent invitations for the "PLANiTULSA Think Big" event to every city councilor, and encouraged them to forward it to their constituents...so they will understand the importance of engaging in PLANiTULSA.

[brunoflipper]

from what I know about this process and what I know about organizations in general, one's role is not just to "cry foul" but to actually help fix the problem....

as far as I can tell, bates has not done **** except complain about this process...  i'm sure he could really make a positive impact, if he wanted to...

with "partners" like this, does planiTulsa need enemies?

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by brunoflipper

from what I know about this process and what I know about organizations in general, one's role is not just to "cry foul" but to actually help fix the problem....

as far as I can tell, bates has not done **** except complain about this process...  i'm sure he could really make a positive impact, if he wanted to...

with "partners" like this, does planiTulsa need enemies?

Bates has a vested interest in the failure of this project. It's a Democratic mayor behind it. If he can make it fail and hurt the mayor then it helps his ends as a local Republican party official.

[MDepr2007]

quote:Originally posted by swake

quote:Originally posted by brunoflipper

from what I know about this process and what I know about organizations in general, one's role is not just to "cry foul" but to actually help fix the problem....

as far as I can tell, bates has not done **** except complain about this process...  i'm sure he could really make a positive impact, if he wanted to...

with "partners" like this, does planiTulsa need enemies?

Bates has a vested interest in the failure of this project. It's a Democratic mayor behind it. If he can make it fail and hurt the mayor then it helps his ends as a local Republican party official.

When do we get the police chief that those of us who attended those Mayor meetings requested.

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by MDepr2007

quote:Originally posted by swake

quote:Originally posted by brunoflipper

from what I know about this process and what I know about organizations in general, one's role is not just to "cry foul" but to actually help fix the problem....

as far as I can tell, bates has not done **** except complain about this process...  i'm sure he could really make a positive impact, if he wanted to...

with "partners" like this, does planiTulsa need enemies?

Bates has a vested interest in the failure of this project. It's a Democratic mayor behind it. If he can make it fail and hurt the mayor then it helps his ends as a local Republican party official.

When do we get the police chief that those of us who attended those Mayor meetings requested.

What exactly are you looking for? We have a new (old) police chief that seems to have healed a lot of the wounds in the police department and the crime rate is way, way down this year.