PLANiTULSA - Get Involved and Think Big!

[MichaelBates]

quote:Originally posted by swake

quote:Originally posted by brunoflipper

from what I know about this process and what I know about organizations in general, one's role is not just to "cry foul" but to actually help fix the problem....

as far as I can tell, bates has not done **** except complain about this process...  i'm sure he could really make a positive impact, if he wanted to...

with "partners" like this, does planiTulsa need enemies?

Bates has a vested interest in the failure of this project. It's a Democratic mayor behind it. If he can make it fail and hurt the mayor then it helps his ends as a local Republican party official.

Bruno, given that I don't have the power to appoint anyone to any boards or commissions, including PLANiTULSA, the only thing I can do to fix this problem is to call attention to it.

Swake, I'm a Tulsan first, and I have a vested interest in making this process work. If I wanted to use it to score political points, I'd wait until it went badly off track before saying anything.

[inteller]

quote:Originally posted by brunoflipper

from what I know about this process and what I know about organizations in general, one's role is not just to "cry foul" but to actually help fix the problem....

as far as I can tell, bates has not done **** except complain about this process...  i'm sure he could really make a positive impact, if he wanted to...

with "partners" like this, does planiTulsa need enemies?

no, but it looks like someone needs more "mouthwash" [}:)]


bates made a huge positive impact by creating a map that clearly displays this travesty.....and no one has an answer for it. NO ONE!  All I have heard so far is smarmy remarks by the midtown cliques that they are just "more involved" or that east and south Tulsans don't want to be involved.  LAME EXCUSES for a midtown fleecing of Tulsa's future.

[MichaelBates]

quote:Originally posted by swake

quote:Originally posted by brunoflipper

from what I know about this process and what I know about organizations in general, one's role is not just to "cry foul" but to actually help fix the problem....

as far as I can tell, bates has not done **** except complain about this process...  i'm sure he could really make a positive impact, if he wanted to...

with "partners" like this, does planiTulsa need enemies?

Bates has a vested interest in the failure of this project. It's a Democratic mayor behind it. If he can make it fail and hurt the mayor then it helps his ends as a local Republican party official.

Swake, how does your theory explain my opposition to Vision 2025 which was pushed by a Republican mayor and majority Republican county commission, or my opposition to several of Bill LaFortune's board appointments? Was I trying to hurt the Republican mayor to benefit the Republican party?

[Renaissance]

quote:Originally posted by MichaelBates

quote:Originally posted by swake

quote:Originally posted by brunoflipper

from what I know about this process and what I know about organizations in general, one's role is not just to "cry foul" but to actually help fix the problem....

as far as I can tell, bates has not done **** except complain about this process...  i'm sure he could really make a positive impact, if he wanted to...

with "partners" like this, does planiTulsa need enemies?

Bates has a vested interest in the failure of this project. It's a Democratic mayor behind it. If he can make it fail and hurt the mayor then it helps his ends as a local Republican party official.

Swake, how does your theory explain my opposition to Vision 2025 which was pushed by a Republican mayor and majority Republican county commission, or my opposition to several of Bill LaFortune's board appointments? Was I trying to hurt the Republican mayor to benefit the Republican party?

I think MBates has a vested interest in the success of the project . . . he lives here.

[brunoflipper]

quote:Originally posted by MichaelBates

quote:Originally posted by swake

quote:Originally posted by brunoflipper

from what I know about this process and what I know about organizations in general, one's role is not just to "cry foul" but to actually help fix the problem....

as far as I can tell, bates has not done **** except complain about this process...  i'm sure he could really make a positive impact, if he wanted to...

with "partners" like this, does planiTulsa need enemies?

Bates has a vested interest in the failure of this project. It's a Democratic mayor behind it. If he can make it fail and hurt the mayor then it helps his ends as a local Republican party official.

Bruno, given that I don't have the power to appoint anyone to any boards or commissions, including PLANiTULSA, the only thing I can do to fix this problem is to call attention to it.

Swake, I'm a Tulsan first, and I have a vested interest in making this process work. If I wanted to use it to score political points, I'd wait until it went badly off track before saying anything.

no, if you wanted to score political points as a party official, you'd do exactly what you are doing... out of the gate, you'd bag on it so you could sit back and say "i told you so" if it all goes awry...

jaysus frohike, perhaps not everything is a conspiracy...

maybe they did the best they could, maybe the process was flawed (maybe not)...

you are one of the "chosen people," the privileged few who were appointed to planitulsa... maybe you could use that mathematical mind of yours to offer an alternative solution... not that they'd listen and not that they should, but it'd be a hell of a lot more productive...

or you could recuse yourself from the whole process, if your so disgusted by it all...

it is not enough to claim it is unjust...


as for me, im running for ombudsman...

[Double A]

They can try to single Bates out, but the fact remains that other people serving as partners have expressed similar concerns, doubts about this process, and have taken wait and see approaches. Explain that as pure partisanship? It's a convenient scapegoat that clearly lacks merit. To dismiss those who dare to discuss the process is what's truly undermining the public trust in this process and will likely doom it to failure. If people show up wanting to talk about this at your big public meeting on the 15th will they be dismissed or will this be discussed?

[waterboy]

Look, the idea that this group needs to be geographically represented equally is not a good one. It even reeks of dare I say it...political correctness. Do you want people on the committee that have the education, skills, background, communication abilities and free time that can accomplish something? Or do you want a perfectly representative sample of the city. If the latter, welcome to lowered expectations. Truth is that would polarize the whole process and end up with bullies from the "South Tulsa Elitists" marginalizing the East and North Siders and demonizing the midtowners. IOW, a city council meeting.

People should be judged on something other than where they live. It is ridiculous to assert that these choices were made on that basis. The "Midtown Elite" promulgators are simply switching tin foil hats if they think so. My guess is that they were chosen by occupation, volunteerism and social status (someone knew them and recommended them). Step one in the Gingrich revolution was to demonize your perceived opponents so as to put them on the defensive. Done.

Reality? People of Tulsa are pretty flexible. They live in one area, work in another and run in multiples of social circles from school to church to softball leagues. Most didn't start out living where they are now. I first lived in North Tulsa, then midtown, then near downtown. But I spend most of my day in the Inteller region and know it pretty well. Conan did the deep south Tulsa experience, but now lives in Midtown, should he be excluded?

You guys went looking for a spotted horse in a herd and found one. Now you're beating it to death and claiming righteousness.

[brunoflipper]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

Look, the idea that this group needs to be geographically represented equally is not a good one. It even reeks of dare I say it...political correctness. Do you want people on the committee that have the education, skills, background, communication abilities and free time that can accomplish something? Or do you want a perfectly representative sample of the city. If the latter, welcome to lowered expectations. Truth is that would polarize the whole process and end up with bullies from the "South Tulsa Elitists" marginalizing the East and North Siders and demonizing the midtowners. IOW, a city council meeting.

People should be judged on something other than where they live. It is ridiculous to assert that these choices were made on that basis. The "Midtown Elite" promulgators are simply switching tin foil hats if they think so. My guess is that they were chosen by occupation, volunteerism and social status (someone knew them and recommended them). Step one in the Gingrich revolution was to demonize your perceived opponents so as to put them on the defensive. Done.

Reality? People of Tulsa are pretty flexible. They live in one area, work in another and run in multiples of social circles from school to church to softball leagues. Most didn't start out living where they are now. I first lived in North Tulsa, then midtown, then near downtown. But I spend most of my day in the Inteller region and know it pretty well. Conan did the deep south Tulsa experience, but now lives in Midtown, should he be excluded?

You guys went looking for a spotted horse in a herd and found one. Now you're beating it to death and claiming righteousness.

bingo.

[AVERAGE JOE]

quote:Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

I wonder what the map would have looked like if you used different criteria other than address and party affiliation. Did you consider using any other criteria? Like education, place of birth, age, past participation in planning efforts, income, occupations and previous addresses.

It seems to me you went looking for a spotted horse and thats the only horse you found.

Quite perceptive. I doubt a person's residence was the criteria used for inviting them. Isn't it possible that the leadership of specific organizations were invited to participate, regardless of where their respective directors live?

Since Mr. Bates has done such extensive research, perhaps he could list the occupation of these people. Might explain quite a lot. For instance, the person who lives in Sand Springs -- what organization or company does he or she represent?

Still waiting...

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by MichaelBates

quote:Originally posted by swake

quote:Originally posted by brunoflipper

from what I know about this process and what I know about organizations in general, one's role is not just to "cry foul" but to actually help fix the problem....

as far as I can tell, bates has not done **** except complain about this process...  i'm sure he could really make a positive impact, if he wanted to...

with "partners" like this, does planiTulsa need enemies?

Bates has a vested interest in the failure of this project. It's a Democratic mayor behind it. If he can make it fail and hurt the mayor then it helps his ends as a local Republican party official.

Swake, how does your theory explain my opposition to Vision 2025 which was pushed by a Republican mayor and majority Republican county commission, or my opposition to several of Bill LaFortune's board appointments? Was I trying to hurt the Republican mayor to benefit the Republican party?

I think in reading your stuff over the years that your biases are applied in this order: religion, anti-tax and then party affiliation.

Vision 2025 was a tax, tax trumps party. Simple. But when it came to be election time and LaFortune was the Republican nominee you backed him, despite being the worst mayor Tulsa may have ever had and his basically not even showing up the last two years he was in office. Party then trumped what was good for the city.

And now everything Taylor does is wrong in your eyes, no matter if it's good for the city or not. I don't think I've seen a single positive statement from you about her at all on anything. Party again trumps needs for the city, and what the city needs probably more than anything after LaFortune is just some healing and unity. And you certainly aren't going to provide that at all for a Democrat in office.

Consider this, Tulsa more than anything needs to rebuild confidence and pride in itself. That's more important than taxes, streets, pools or an urban downtown. Your standard attack mode of using name calling, class warfare, rumor and snarky innuendo to tear down everyone that's not of your party affiliation is at odds with this very real need.

[rwarn17588]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

Look, the idea that this group needs to be geographically represented equally is not a good one. It even reeks of dare I say it...political correctness. Do you want people on the committee that have the education, skills, background, communication abilities and free time that can accomplish something? Or do you want a perfectly representative sample of the city. If the latter, welcome to lowered expectations. Truth is that would polarize the whole process and end up with bullies from the "South Tulsa Elitists" marginalizing the East and North Siders and demonizing the midtowners. IOW, a city council meeting.

People should be judged on something other than where they live. It is ridiculous to assert that these choices were made on that basis. The "Midtown Elite" promulgators are simply switching tin foil hats if they think so. My guess is that they were chosen by occupation, volunteerism and social status (someone knew them and recommended them). Step one in the Gingrich revolution was to demonize your perceived opponents so as to put them on the defensive. Done.

Reality? People of Tulsa are pretty flexible. They live in one area, work in another and run in multiples of social circles from school to church to softball leagues. Most didn't start out living where they are now. I first lived in North Tulsa, then midtown, then near downtown. But I spend most of my day in the Inteller region and know it pretty well. Conan did the deep south Tulsa experience, but now lives in Midtown, should he be excluded?

You guys went looking for a spotted horse in a herd and found one. Now you're beating it to death and claiming righteousness.

Regrettably, I have to agree.

Recent events seem to have unleashed all of Michael's demons and bitterness that were seen during the campaign and eventual passage of Vision 2025. And this is not a good thing.

Hyperbole? I don't think so. He's ranting about a conspiracy at every turn and dragging out tired old phrases like "Midtown Money Belt." He quoted Friendly Bear on his blog, who has a track record for truth about as good as George "No Show" Jones' track record for sobriety. He trotted out an old letter about Vision 2025 with details that are at best peripheral to the current discussion.

Jeez Louise, Michael, you've poisoned the well even before the first meeting. That's no way to effect change you so desire. Wouldn't it be more prudent to see how the group actually ACTS before making a pre-emptive strike on a threat that may not actually exist? (Hmm ... it seems I've stumbled upon a telling Iraq metaphor ... yeek.)

[RecycleMichael]

You guys are sure bagging Michael Bates the last couple of days.

I don't think you can take his criticisms of the members of the PlaniTulsa advisory groups and project all this demonization. He made some assumptions that the group represented a certain area. He did his research to prove or disprove his theory. He made a map. He wrote about it on his blog and on this forum.

He didn't scream, he just whined. That should be allowed, especially on a public forum like TulsaNow. He knew a bunch of friends from his political work or from the Secret Club of Disenfranchised Tulsans that didn't get appointed and he wanted them on the team. He whined a little.

I disagree with his assumption that the address of the appointee matters that much. I used to live in North Tulsa, used to live in West Tulsa, and used to live in Mid-Town Tulsa. Now I live in East Tulsa. My views on a comprehensive plan haven't changed that much.

I am willing to give Michael a chance to get complaining about the make-up of the committee out of his system and then work toward getting a great plan together. Michael and I disagree the most during election times, but agree the most when it comes to what kind of town we want to raise our failies in.

Anybody named Michael can't be all bad.

[waterboy]

I don't think its a personal thing. I understand the frustration Michael espresses with Tulsa being a social set. Its the Tulsa way of doing things. In a perfect world folks would be chosen for their intelligence, committment, passion and ideas instead of who they play golf with, raise funds for charities with, pray with or party with(or how many mentions in DannaSue's column[]). Pointing it out is one thing, considering its results conspiratorial or the failure of yet another mayour, is another.

[inteller]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

I don't think its a personal thing. I understand the frustration Michael espresses with Tulsa being a social set. Its the Tulsa way of doing things. In a perfect world folks would be chosen for their intelligence, committment, passion and ideas instead of who they play golf with, raise funds for charities with, pray with or party with(or how many mentions in DannaSue's column[]). Pointing it out is one thing, considering its results conspiratorial or the failure of yet another mayour, is another.

no, in this case a committee that will be creating a plan for the entire geography of Tulsa should have all of that geography represented.  And it doesn't.  The makeup of the body should fir the criteria.  It has a bunch of people from midtown with latent hatred for anything north of 244 and south of 44.  It even has people WHO DON'T LIVE IN TULSA advising people for a plan about Tulsa.  Based on that strategy, we should all be able to get on commitess in OKC.

[TheArtist]

I still think that there should have been a bit more representation from other parts of town. Not for "geographic balance" per say, but because often people who live in one part of town have different perspectives and lives than those in mid-town and downtown.

I dont think that someone should be excluded because of where they live either. I just think its good to have a broad representation of incomes, poor to working class to upper class, we need different age groups, lifestyles "urban/suburban" etc. That way different peoples needs and concerns can be addressed. It also happens that certain parts of town tend to more or less typify certain demographics, plus someone who lives in that area will know best whats there and what is needed or can be changed. However, I also wouldnt want to be excluded because of where I lived. I have lived in Owasso and Broken Arrow. Both times I couldnt wait to move back to Tulsa lol. Cared more about Tulsa and what was going on there than either of those places. If something like this came up while I was living there, it would have felt terrible to be excluded just because of where I happened to be living at that moment.

There is a point to be made that you want people who know something about these matters, who are perhaps involved with different civic groups, etc. But its also good to have more variety than just that. You really do need all kinds of people represented.

Was at one of the "Map meetings" a group of us were having about the map we are making for Downtown Tulsa. Most of us were young people and much of the discussion was about the online map and what should be on it, how people could use their phones during dinner say and access the map to figure out what clubs, concerts, etc, may be open in the area and go there afterwards. Then an elderly couple said they wouldnt automatically go to the web to look for a map, and that any printed map should have as large a print as possible, etc. I hadnt even thought of elderly people, what they may want to find, their different concerns etc. Someone mentioned that we should have it so that you can find what restaurants have vegitarian food. I wouldnt have thought of that, I am not a vegitarian. Someone said we should have what businesses or restaurants are pet freindly or kid friendly. Again, not something on my radar.

As smart and clever as the "core group" of us may have been, coming up with all these wonderful ideas... there is often that unexpected something that someone outside our usual circle, our usual life experience, says or needs, which can be very important to them, but which the rest of us may simply overlook.

Just dont want us to overlook something that will be important so someone,,,somewhere.