City Council - Driller Vote on July 10

[Double A]

quote:Originally posted by PonderInc

Lately I've been wondering why everyone on this forum seems to be on the rag.  Exciting, cool things happen...great opportunities for Tulsa arise... and then the threads turn negative and ugly. (It's depressing, and makes me not want to read the forum.)

I have to remind myself that it's not most people...just a handful of individuals who wear poo-tinted glasses and think everything they see is manure.  

Example:
"Congratulations!  You've just won the lottery!"

Person wearing poo-colored glasses: "Stop trying to dump this sh_t on us, you evil rich b_stard!"

I believe in free speech and the power of dialogue.  But there are some folks who never seem to contribute/offer anything constructive.  Pi$$ing and moaning all the time, every day, about everything is not diaglogue.  It's like listening to a toddler throw a tantrum at the grocery store.  Just makes you want to check out faster!

Ceaseless negativity doesn't change anyone's mind.  It doesn't even challenge controversial issues... It just annoys and offends people who would otherwise participate.  People who truly care about Tulsa and want to get involved, learn, discuss, question, etc...in a civil forum.  And it makes the regular posters (thick skinned folks, one and all) basically ignore anything you say.

(But I do think that Friendly Bear offers an interesting poetic slant.  Imagine if Dr. Seuss and Donald Rumsfeld had a love child on acid....)

Translation:

Cosign the B.S., pander to the powers that be, and pretend everything is just fine.

That type of thinking is exactly what has gotten Tulsa into the troubles and turmoil we find ourselves in today.

Pander Inc. exhibits most of the pantomimes of a pathological liar when confronted with the truth.

All truth passes through three stages. First it is ridiculed. Second it is violently opposed. Third it is accepted as self evident.

Pander Inc is in such deeply delusional dysfunctional state of denial that Pander is stuck in a perpetual loop of the first two stages.

[AVERAGE JOE]

quote:Originally posted by Double A

quote:Originally posted by PonderInc

Lately I've been wondering why everyone on this forum seems to be on the rag.  Exciting, cool things happen...great opportunities for Tulsa arise... and then the threads turn negative and ugly. (It's depressing, and makes me not want to read the forum.)

I have to remind myself that it's not most people...just a handful of individuals who wear poo-tinted glasses and think everything they see is manure.  

Example:
"Congratulations!  You've just won the lottery!"

Person wearing poo-colored glasses: "Stop trying to dump this sh_t on us, you evil rich b_stard!"

I believe in free speech and the power of dialogue.  But there are some folks who never seem to contribute/offer anything constructive.  Pi$$ing and moaning all the time, every day, about everything is not diaglogue.  It's like listening to a toddler throw a tantrum at the grocery store.  Just makes you want to check out faster!

Ceaseless negativity doesn't change anyone's mind.  It doesn't even challenge controversial issues... It just annoys and offends people who would otherwise participate.  People who truly care about Tulsa and want to get involved, learn, discuss, question, etc...in a civil forum.  And it makes the regular posters (thick skinned folks, one and all) basically ignore anything you say.

(But I do think that Friendly Bear offers an interesting poetic slant.  Imagine if Dr. Seuss and Donald Rumsfeld had a love child on acid....)

Translation:

Cosign the B.S., pander to the powers that be, and pretend everything is just fine.

That type of thinking is exactly what has gotten Tulsa into the troubles and turmoil we find ourselves in today.

Pander Inc. exhibits most of the pantomimes of a pathological liar when confronted with the truth.

All truth passes through three stages. First it is ridiculed. Second it is violently opposed. Third it is accepted as self evident.

Pander Inc is in such deeply delusional dysfunctional state of denial that Pander is stuck in a perpetual loop of the first two stages.

Seek help. Professional help. Immediately. I hate to see you like this.

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by Double A

quote:Originally posted by carltonplace

What a bunch of whiners. In my estimation the only people that have a right to whine about this ball park are those that own property inside the IDL and don't want to see their property values increase.


None of the rest of you are paying for this. Stop crying.

Most of the people that are complaining are those that are sitting on derelict property doing nothing and hoping that someday that crappy rundown warehouse will make them rich. I have to agree with EN: "If you own property downtown...do something with it".

Is this good for downtown? Yes
Will it create infill and developement in the CBD? Yes
Will the ballpark bring more people? Yes
Can this revitalize but not recreate the Greenwood area? Yep, its for everyone. Its reconciliation.

You are dead wrong. This assessment will be collected on city and county owned buildings. Who pays for that increase? City and County taxpayers. So taxes are either raised to cover the increases or we get another cut in the services we're provided to offset these new costs. To spin this as reconciliation is completely reprehensible. It is morally and intellectually bankrupt.

AA is Correct.  

ALL City of Tulsa and also County of Tulsa residents will end up paying through the BID assessments.

Since there is a LOT of City and County property within the BID, we'll get socked.

$100,000's annually.

The Tulsa County Jail alone is an Enormous facility.  

Add in:

Old City Hall.  

New OTC City Hall.  

Maxwell Convention Center.  

BOK Arena.  

County Court House.  

County Annex Building.  

Tulsa City-County Library.

It's a new Tax.

Let's name the new Tax, shall we?

How about....

The Taylor Tax?

[Renaissance]

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear


ALL City of Tulsa and also County of Tulsa residents will end up paying through the BID assessments.

Since there is a LOT of City and County property within the BID, we'll get socked.

Is this correct?  My understanding was that governmental entities were exempt, but I've been wrong before.  

If it's correct, does anybody have any idea what proportion of downtown square footage is municipal/county owned?  (I'm not too worried about the Feds but toss that in if you want.)

[sgrizzle]

quote:Originally posted by Floyd

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear


ALL City of Tulsa and also County of Tulsa residents will end up paying through the BID assessments.

Since there is a LOT of City and County property within the BID, we'll get socked.

Is this correct?  My understanding was that governmental entities were exempt, but I've been wrong before.  

If it's correct, does anybody have any idea what proportion of downtown square footage is municipal/county owned?  (I'm not too worried about the Feds but toss that in if you want.)

Government entities WILL pay this tax.

[TheArtist]

Well good, that makes it sound a little more fair. Though I am sure that what I would be paying for my part wont be as much as those downtown will be paying. But it at least helps a bit.

You know, I wish there were some way, say on a city bill, that those of us who dont mind paying extra to have certain things could contribute to paying down a tax.

For instance, the tax for the baseball stadium will end sooner if enough money is collected. It would also make it cost less over all because the debt interest wouldnt be paid for as long. So, if your City of Tulsa bill had a box that you could check where you could contribute each month to helping pay down the Ballpark debt/tax, a person could do that.

I understand that we sometimes need these types of taxes or funding mechanisms to get things done in a timely and assured manner. It cant always all be donations. Plus, say if it were for something major for the River Parks, which all of us use or that improves the city as a whole, everyone paying in at least something would only be fair. However, having something in place so that those of us who really want a particular project and wouldnt mind paying more for it, could do so, might be kind of nice. It would be a way for us to help out those who dont have as much. Even if it were just "sold" as a way to pay down the tax thus saving us all from paying more interest money, that would be incentive enough.

If the city bill had a selection of projects that could be donated to, to pay off sooner, and you could select to pay 10, 20, 50, 100, dollars a month to pay for that project. ... Might be kind of interesting to see what happens.

The other idea I have been thinking about would be that if you used a debit card, you could elect to pay a slightly higher tax that would go to your "favorite project" or priority. Whether it be streets, schools, parks, museums, whatever.

Some of us dont have huge chunks that we can donate at once. And you often need to have all the financing in play before you can start a project. But we can pay extra on each bill or at each transaction.


The intent isnt just to pay for something, but to pay down the bond or tax so that it ends sooner, thus helping out everyone, not to mention those with a tighter income. Everyone still fairly pay something for a project that is believed to help us all, but some of us can elect to pay more on the things we really want to support.

[TulsaSooner]

quote:Originally posted by Floyd

Is this correct?  My understanding was that governmental entities were exempt, but I've been wrong before.  

If it's correct, does anybody have any idea what proportion of downtown square footage is municipal/county owned?  (I'm not too worried about the Feds but toss that in if you want.)

Only the Fed buildings are exempt.

[cannon_fodder]

To the "no new stadium" crowd:

Could you please make a short-list of complaints/concerns for me.  Your arguments are all over the board, boil these suckers down so I can digest them. This is kind of what I'm getting:

1) No because it is a new tax and all taxes are bad
2) No because of the way it is being handled, too fast/secret and I distrust government
3) We don't need it, let the Drillers leave

Are you against development downtown or just this development?  If so, for the reasons above or others?  What remedies could you see, or are you just against the project in it's entirety?

The discussion is all over the board and very near to being outside the realm of constructive.  I understand you don't like the project, but please articulate why you don't and what can/should be done to alleviate your concerns.  Otherwise, your just complaining instead of trying to do something about it (and then you'd be like Inteller, and no one wants that).

[Gaspar]

I like the Drillers and want them to stay in Tulsa.  

It just feels like we have a gun to our heads.

So what are we getting?  No one knows.  Why does it cost so much?  No one knows.  Will it be beneficial to that part of Tulsa?  I would think so.  Would it benefit the rest of Tulsa?  I hope so.  

All we have now is a location, a hurried preliminary design, an architectural commitment, a construction commitment, and a $60 million dollar price-tag hanging on it ($80 million in the real world).

Even if most of this is paid for through corporate donation, will we regret not planning it better?

Are we going to slow down now and really examine this?  For the price I want it to be worth every penny!

These are my questions.  

[MDepr2007]

My main concern among many is that there is no plan. Only a plan of how to collect money for anything. I have no trust in the city to do this ballpark right, I beleive Jenks would actually take care of it better. Tulsa could do a better job if those who cared would actually get a bigger say so.
I can see myself going to Jenks to watch games (multiple games) due to what other places will be in place. I can't say that for Tulsa because there is nothing to go on except past experiance and what the leadership has already accomplished to move forward in the last 10 years downtown.
Another thing that pops in my mind about the possible downtown location for the ballpark. This would be setting in my seat waiting to watch the next pitch in a close game and here comes another diesel on the highway hitting the jake brake or just the air horn alone [}:)]

[carltonplace]

quote:Originally posted by Double A
[br
You are dead wrong. This assessment will be collected on city and county owned buildings. Who pays for that increase? City and County taxpayers. So taxes are either raised to cover the increases or we get another cut in the services we're provided to offset these new costs.

Is that what you are grousing about; that the Fed, County, and City will pay $10 bucks a month? What is your part of that? Next time I see you I'll pay for your part...can't be more than a couple bucks.

[Double A]

quote:Originally posted by carltonplace

quote:Originally posted by Double A
[br
You are dead wrong. This assessment will be collected on city and county owned buildings. Who pays for that increase? City and County taxpayers. So taxes are either raised to cover the increases or we get another cut in the services we're provided to offset these new costs.

Is that what you are grousing about; that the Fed, County, and City will pay $10 bucks a month? What is your part of that? Next time I see you I'll pay for your part...can't be more than a couple bucks.

It's a hell of a lot more than $10 a month. Drink more Kool-Aid.

The pantomimes of the pathological liars continue.

That's just one of many problems with this plan, a little reading comprehension goes a long way. Try it sometime, that is, if you even possess the cognitive capacity.

[Double A]

quote:Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE

quote:Originally posted by Double A

quote:Originally posted by PonderInc

Lately I've been wondering why everyone on this forum seems to be on the rag.  Exciting, cool things happen...great opportunities for Tulsa arise... and then the threads turn negative and ugly. (It's depressing, and makes me not want to read the forum.)

I have to remind myself that it's not most people...just a handful of individuals who wear poo-tinted glasses and think everything they see is manure.  

Example:
"Congratulations!  You've just won the lottery!"

Person wearing poo-colored glasses: "Stop trying to dump this sh_t on us, you evil rich b_stard!"

I believe in free speech and the power of dialogue.  But there are some folks who never seem to contribute/offer anything constructive.  Pi$$ing and moaning all the time, every day, about everything is not diaglogue.  It's like listening to a toddler throw a tantrum at the grocery store.  Just makes you want to check out faster!

Ceaseless negativity doesn't change anyone's mind.  It doesn't even challenge controversial issues... It just annoys and offends people who would otherwise participate.  People who truly care about Tulsa and want to get involved, learn, discuss, question, etc...in a civil forum.  And it makes the regular posters (thick skinned folks, one and all) basically ignore anything you say.

(But I do think that Friendly Bear offers an interesting poetic slant.  Imagine if Dr. Seuss and Donald Rumsfeld had a love child on acid....)

Translation:

Cosign the B.S., pander to the powers that be, and pretend everything is just fine.

That type of thinking is exactly what has gotten Tulsa into the troubles and turmoil we find ourselves in today.

Pander Inc. exhibits most of the pantomimes of a pathological liar when confronted with the truth.

All truth passes through three stages. First it is ridiculed. Second it is violently opposed. Third it is accepted as self evident.

Pander Inc is in such deeply delusional dysfunctional state of denial that Pander is stuck in a perpetual loop of the first two stages.

Seek help. Professional help. Immediately. I hate to see you like this.

Right back at ya, babe.

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle

quote:Originally posted by Floyd

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear


ALL City of Tulsa and also County of Tulsa residents will end up paying through the BID assessments.

Since there is a LOT of City and County property within the BID, we'll get socked.

Is this correct?  My understanding was that governmental entities were exempt, but I've been wrong before.  

If it's correct, does anybody have any idea what proportion of downtown square footage is municipal/county owned?  (I'm not too worried about the Feds but toss that in if you want.)

Government entities WILL pay this tax.

Since WE THE PEOPLE are the Government, WE WILL PAY.

Except the Federal property, which the city has no authority to tax.

There is some question about whether the city can tax through a BID a state-owned property.

However, with a Democrat Governor and Atty. General, I expect they'll cooperate with they paying their share of:

The Taylor Tax.


[:X]

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

To the "no new stadium" crowd:

Could you please make a short-list of complaints/concerns for me.  Your arguments are all over the board, boil these suckers down so I can digest them. This is kind of what I'm getting:

1) No because it is a new tax and all taxes are bad
2) No because of the way it is being handled, too fast/secret and I distrust government
3) We don't need it, let the Drillers leave

Are you against development downtown or just this development?  If so, for the reasons above or others?  What remedies could you see, or are you just against the project in it's entirety?

The discussion is all over the board and very near to being outside the realm of constructive.  I understand you don't like the project, but please articulate why you don't and what can/should be done to alleviate your concerns.  Otherwise, your just complaining instead of trying to do something about it (and then you'd be like Inteller, and no one wants that).

Sure, happy to list the main reasons I think the downtown stadium is a mistake for the City of Tulsa:

1.  Our high maintenance mayor wants to indebt the city taxpayers in a downtown BID for THIRTY years to partially fund the construction of a new baseball stadium.  She seems to like indebting Tulsa's citizens for THIRTY year deals.

The financing of the move of the city hall to the OTC building is another:

30 year loan.  

With a 30 year loan, the interest builds up so that the total cost you pay is much, much more than the original amount financed.  That's called:

Interest.

2) The current Driller stadium is PAID FOR.

Debt-free. T

That is a wonderful, strategic position for a government facility.

Paid for by nouveau riche Oil Racketeer (and convicted Federal felon) Robert Sutton.  We just need a better class of Oil Racketeer here in Oklahoma today.

Today's new energy buccaneers like Aubrey McClendon want taxpayer-financed Corporate Welfare for their professional sports franchises.  He and his plutocrat cronies are getting $180 MILLION dollars of the taxpayer's money to move a basketball team he owns to Oklahoma City.

3) Driller Stadium is a perfectly adequate baseball field.

It has functioning lights.

It has reasonably good, sanitary concessions.

It has functioning, relatively clean, indoor bathrooms.

It has a scoreboard. Actually, a pretty good scoreboard.

It has box seats available for the local Patricians, so they won't be directly exposed to the local Peons.

4) The current stadium which seats over 10,000 is rarely full. When there is a big ticket promotion with Free Q-T tickets, or $1.00 beer nite, they fill up the stadium with 10,000 fans, or more.

Usually, there are 3,000 - 5,000 dedicated fans who regularly turn out.

The new stadium is reported to have only 6,200 seats. Tiny compared to Driller stadium.

5) SAFE, free parking is right next to the current Driller stadium, within EASY walking distance for fans.

It may NOT be either safe or free in the area where Mayor Taylor wants to build a new stadium.

6) It is more or less centrally located for fans to access via the Broken Arrow Expressway, and just 2.5 miles away from Tulsa's center of gravity.

A downtown stadium is even further from Tulsa's center of gravity at 41st and Yale.

7) Driller Stadium is not located downwind from an oil refinery, next to a busy 6 lane expressway, or in close proximity to The 'Hood.

If team owner Mr. Lamson wants to take his team and move, that's his right. He has only a year-to-year lease on Driller Stadium.

Tulsa can easily find a REPLACEMENT team.

When our original AAA Tulsa Oilers moved away to New Orleans, they were promptly replaced by the AA Tulsa Drillers. The door didn't even bump their butts on the way out.

9) There is a market for our AA-AAA baseball franchise in Tulsa. Not a great market. But, one that year in and year out brings about 3,000 - 5,000 fans out on any given home game.

10) And, the real money is made off of the concessions. People spend $6.00 on a ticket, and $20+ on concessions, souvenirs, etc.

I'm not sure Mr. Lamson really wants competition for food and drink sales from the adjacent Blue Dome or Brady entertainment Districts.

11) Wonder if this proposed stadium deal is making Mr. Lamson many money on the side on the construction expenditures?

Will he be a silent partner with the local Manhattan Construction cabal?  Their likely JV name?

Tulsa Stadium Builders?