Tulsa History Repeats Itself - Again?

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

quote:Originally posted by TURobY

In that case, there is a Taco Cabana located nearby the current Driller's stadium. They serve nachos, don't they? And Target has pretzels and popcorn. They even sell peanuts. Lowe's has a hot dog stand in the parking lot.

It's a shame that there is so much competition. How will they ever survive?

You can buy all the above at the Walgreens at 15th & Yale just outside left field.  You can even buy a small Hibachi grill, charcoal and lighter fluid.  How did the Drillers make it there so long?  Good point Rob [}:)]

Now I'm thinking perhaps YOU haven't been to a game.

Notice the sign at Drillers Stadium:

NO OUTSIDE FOOD OR DRINK ALLOWED.

Feel free to sit in the Walgreen Parking lot with your Hibachi, and listen to the play by play announcer.

[TURobY]

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

Huh?

Driller Stadium doesn't pay any property taxes.  It is county property owned by an Authority, exempt from ad valorem taxes.

The new Driller Stadium likewise will be owned by a Title 60 Public Authority, exempt from Ad Valorem taxes, i.e. Real Estate Taxes.

The stadium authority may or may NOT be subject to the BID assessment.  I've heard yes, and also NO.

Please keep up with the conversation. Nobody said anything about Ad Valorem taxes. In fact, this topic was specifically discussed at the council meeting which you did not attend.

Perhaps all that radiation poisoning is making you hear voices in your head?

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by TURobY

Did anyone catch this?

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

Besides, for anyone living in far south Tulsa, including your favorite poster, Jenks is actually CLOSER than the current 15th and Yale.

Now we know why Pooh-Bear wants the Drillers to move to Jenks. We also know why he also opposes any development downtown, midtown, or elsewhere in the city.

His intentions aren't honorable as he would like other posters to believe. His arguments are purely based on the fact of convenience to him.

Am I your favorite poster?

Wow.

Since the geographic center of Tulsa is 41st and Yale, and NOT downtown, methinks that the downtown arena will not be convenient for the majority of citizens of Tulsa, Bixby, Jenks, Glenpool and south Broken Arrow.

I'm in GOOD company.

Al Jerkins told me one time that "if you paid to get into a Driller's game, you need to have your head examined."

Concessions are taxable, as well as souvenirs.  That's where the real revenue is, not the gate.  Why do you think they do so many free gate admission promotions?  To get the real revenue.

Nice try, but weak.  You are starting to wander off into the area of errors and omissions.  Do they make nuclear scientists carry EOI?

I agree with you:  

Their business model has their REAL revenue coming from food and concession sales.

Therefore, it is COUNTER-INTUITIVE that locating the stadium adjacent to an active food/entertainment venue, a.k.a. the Brady District, will HELP the Drillers sell MORE food and concessions.

They will sell LESS.

People who consume food, drinks, or alcohol in the Brady entertainment district before the game will HURT Stadium food/drink sales.

Period.  

Everyone can't pack it away like RecycleMichael.

Therefore, Lamson's business model is either a side deal with the construction company, or he's raising ticket prices.

Possibly the local Oligarch Families fronting the $30 million for development of the adjacent areas around the stadium have him in for a cut of the action.  

An undisclosed SIDE DEAL.

There is no other ECONOMIC way to make money at the stadium?

Television Rights?  Not for AA.

Radio broadcast?  Already covered.

Gosh, some entrepreneurial street vendor may start selling "authentic" Driller's baseball caps for 1/2 PRICE RIGHT ACROSS the street from the stadium.

Ouch! That will hurt stadium concession sales.

Ouch, OUCH!

[RecycleMichael]

I think friendly bear is too simple for this conversation. He can't understand that having the stadium part of a thriving entertainment district is a good business plan.

He is obsessed with the food portion of the business and where people eat. I think it is because he is trying to come up with a plan to steal picnic baskets. Bears have been known to do that.

Instead, in his animal sized bear brain, he decides it must be for some other reason the Drillers want a new ballpark downtown.

Sorry bear. I'll take the business mind of Chuck Lamson over your rabid and delusional thoughts any day.

[Hoss]

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by Hoss

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by Gold

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

FB:  

Driller's stadium is adequate.  It is bought and paid for.

BUT IT'S NOT AN OPTION.

The Driller's are moving.  The question is do they move to a new ballpark in Tulsa or Jenks. That's the choice.  Period. End of story.

Your point on the existing stadium is moot.  You're just digging a hole.

Public policy decisions may not be either Door #1 or Door #2.  Either A) or B).

We need to ask what is behind Door #3.

Tulsa County Fairgrounds Authority would be no worse off if the city did not respond to Lamson's blackmail.

Let Lamson threaten to move the team to Jenks. Call his bluff.

He's giving up a reasonable sure thing at Driller Field, for a Field of Dreams in Jenks.  If he elects to move, then let the Fairgrounds JACK his rent up 5x the current level to share the pain.

Let the Jenks residents pay for new stadium.  

$30 million apportioned among that tiny hamlet will be quite a tax bite that their voters may or may NOT approve.

Besides, for anyone living in far south Tulsa, including your favorite poster, Jenks is actually CLOSER than the current 15th and Yale.

Win-Win.

You have been proven wrong here as well.

There was a real risk that the team would go to Jenks.

Along with its sales tax.

All your regurgitated incorrect argument does is prove that you don't know tack taco about Tulsa.

Give it up.

You're wrong.

[:O]

Sales tax?

Goldilocks, sports tickets are exempt from Sales Taxes.  By state law.

Big fat loss.

Wrong.  Only those sports that are considered professional.  Did you not even watch the City council meeting where they discussed this at GREAT length?

How about OSU vs OU.  Those games ARE taxed.

How about merchandise?  Food?

Also, how about the fact that there will be a net gain because the new stadium is on city property, where Driller stadium is on county property and only being assessed county tax, not county AND city tax?

You're spinning your wheels now.

Huh?

Driller Stadium doesn't pay any property taxes.  It is county property owned by an Authority, exempt from ad valorem taxes.

The new Driller Stadium likewise will be owned by a Title 60 Public Authority, exempt from Ad Valorem taxes, i.e. Real Estate Taxes.

The stadium authority may or may NOT be subject to the BID assessment.  I've heard yes, and also NO.

The city may collect sales taxes on concession sales and food sales.  OR, the Authority might work a different deal on concessions, such as percentage of the gross sales, and NOT impose a Sales Tax.

You simply do not know, Goldilocks.

OK, now you think I'm Gold....you need to check your vision or something.  I was not talking about ad-valorem taxes, I was talking specficially to the misguided information you gave about sales taxes as they apply to tickets for sports events.  Sales tax by law cannot be assessed to tickets for professional sports events.  This includes such things as minor league baseball and higher.  Since college sports aren't professional, or anything labeled amateur, they CAN be taxed.

I also spoke to the extra tax the city will receive due to the stadium being on city land.

You may need to go take a nap, tired Bear.

[Conan71]

FB- I doubt there would be a change in concession sales.  Many people eat at home before a game, that doesn't change a thing, now does it?

It's a good business model, you seem to be the only person in Tulsa who does not agree.

FWIW, I was tongue-in-cheek talking about a family sitting in the Walgreen's parking lot cooking out.  I'm quite well aware you don't bring your own food or drink into a Driller's game except early in the season when it's not out of place to wear a large jacket. []

Bottom line is, there's no shortage of drive throughs to and from the ballpark in any direction from the present ballpark.

Another weak argument.  Horse is out of the barn, quit complaining bear.

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by RecycleMichael

I think friendly bear is too simple for this conversation. He can't understand that having the stadium part of a thriving entertainment district is a good business plan.

He is obsessed with the food portion of the business and where people eat. I think it is because he is trying to come up with a plan to steal picnic baskets. Bears have been known to do that.

Instead, in his animal sized bear brain, he decides it must be for some other reason the Drillers want a new ballpark downtown.

Sorry bear. I'll take the business mind of Chuck Lamson over your rabid and delusional thoughts any day.

On the SURFACE, it is NOT a good business plan for Lamson.  

It may be the re-genesis of a new downtown.  This is the fifth effort I'm aware of that been the re-genesis of downtown.

Moving city hall to OTC was the last folly.

Before that the BOK Arena?

Want more?

Do we need to go over those flops again?

Follow the logic:

Smaller Stadium = FEWER customers.

Maybe higher prices tickets = LESS ticket sales.

COMPETING entertainment venues NEARBY for sales of food and drink, his main operating revenue source.

The County is practically GIVING him the stadium now out at the Fairgrounds.  That's a GREAT deal.

He's gotta get the vigorish from somewhere in the new deal.

Side-deal probably.  Stadium Partners, L.P. with the contractor(s)??

Or, a share of store-fronts surrounding the stadium funded from the Oligarchia Familias.

It isn't coming from TV rights?

[Gold]

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by Gold

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by Gold

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by TURobY

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

The Brady District will admittedly be proximal to the proposed Stadium.  Great.  Mr. Lamson will love you eating dinner and having drinks in the Brady District B4 you see a Drillers game.

The Brady District will be a COMPETITOR to Mr. Lamson.

Nice try, except for the fact that the food offered in the surrounding area doesn't exactly serve the same fare as the ballpark. Can you name a restaurant in the Brady District or Blue Dome that serves a hot dog or peanuts or cracker-jacks?

At my last Drillers game, although I had the heart-burn-Driller Dog, I did see hamburgers, nachos, and Mazzios Pizza on the menu.  

Along with Beer.

Common items sold as well in the Brady District.

I expect that the Brady District will benefit from the Drillers games more than the Drillers/Lamson will benefit from being proximal to the Brady District.

We'll soon see............in 2010.

Why post if you don't know what you are talking about?

Where is the Mazzio's in the Brady district?

Or the pizza for that matter?

Or the nachos? (Granted, Mexicali has nachos, but they aren't the same thing).

But, you know what, that's true of all the ballparks mentioned above.

FB is clueless.

Poor FB.

[:O]

Well, in the interest of continuing the discussion of public policy regarding the stadium, let's define Nacho:  

A corn chip with melted cheese and/or browned, chopped mystery meat with a slice of Jalapeno pepper for flavor.

Pizza is the operative menu item discussed above, to further advance this lofty public policy discussion.  

Not the MAZZIOS Pizza.

Pizza.

I'm not aware of any Mazzios Restaurants in the Brady District.  With the stadium coming downtown, we can expect several probably.  Mr. Lamson will love that.

Gee, I didn't know you were an EXPERT on every restaurant that sold Pizza downtown?

Doesn't Spaghetti Warehouse actually serve Pizza?

221 East Brady.

What "district" is the Spaghetti Warehouse located?

Sounds like....

Grady?

Shady?

Cady?

Brady?

[:X]

You lose.  

So sorry.

Thanks for playing.

Spaghetti Warehouse pretty much sucks.  But, it has stayed in busines.  

Lamson knows it is there.  Why would he move next door if he was worried about S'getti Warehouse?

The nachos you get at a Drillers game are just not the same thing that you get at a Mexican establishment.  The only reason I say that is that you appear to have never had nachos outside of Oiler Park in 1975.

Anyway, your argument on this is really poor.  The model has worked all over the country.  You have no counter-examples.  Lamson is hardly being forced to move downtown.

So, you're wrong.

Didn't get it right.

Way off base.

Incorrect.

You lose.

False.

Fail.

No.

[:O]

Mr. Lamson's business model is not based on simply selling tickets.  Tickets for general admission are priced low to get the crowd in so they'll eat and drink from the concessions.

Mr. Lamson will be surrounded by competitors in a downtown stadium.  He'll be WORSE off unless:

1)  He raises ticket prices. That will REDUCE demand for tickets.

2)  He's in on the construction deal, like a limited partnership with Manhattan.  Let's name it Stadium Builders L.P.

3)  He sells MORE seats; but he can't. This stadium will be barely 1/2 the size of Driller stadium.

Where's he gonna make the $$?

Concessions.

Okay, Goldilocks, the big bad bear will grant you a request:

You can educate yourself by reading "Field of Schemes".

It's all about the racket of sports stadium construction, and why they are a negative-gain economic model.

Available from www.amazon.com

Enjoy your education.

Ticket prices will be raised, no doubt, but there won't be a tradeoff in demand.  New stadiums always attract fans.  Down the road, he may have to lower ticket prices, or just keep them the same, but rest assured he'll get a lot of folks down there the first few years.

You cite no specific examples of where a stadium development like this failed.  You cite some book that you probably haven't read that probably doesn't apply.  I've given you several examples of cities who have done well with new ballparks.  You have no counterexamples.  You lose and you should be disqualified from the internet.

You have no evidence that he's in the construction deal.  If he's not, I hope he sues you for slander.

We've been down the stadium size discussion before and you looked a fool.  They don't sell the place out after the first few games.  Beyond that, fixed seating is 6,000 -- actual vapacity is more like 7 or 8,000.  There are things like L-U-X-U-R-Y B-O-X-E-S and B-E-R-N-S.  Whwn you factor in that he will charge more over the current tickets, which are often comped anyway, he'll probably make more and atr worst, the same over the cause of the season.

Then you pretty much commit suicide with your concesssion that his profit center is concessions.  You keep saying downtown's other venues will compete, but you have no argument WHATSOEVER to the point that other cities have taken off.  We've also had this discussion before -- and yet again, you looked like a fool -- right now, downtown doesn't bring in a lot of families or older people.  

The bars are clearly aimed at the younger crowd.  The stadium goes directly after those dollars of families and older folks.  Beyond that, some folks might want to eat somewhere else or perhaps go to a bar before or after the game or concert.  If you're at Drillers stadium these days, those options are non-existent.

Mind you, Jenks was trying to do the EXACT same thing as far as alternative entertainment options in the neighborhood.  Lamson had two options to move the stadium, because it has to move (you've been proven wrong on that point about a dozen times), and both were to put it near other entertainment options.  Regardless of how much gibberish and garbage you type, Lamson wants the stadium near other entertainment.  It's his business decision to make.

If you want to start your own baseball team, called the Central Arkansas Fudge Bears (or wherever you live), go for it.  The rest of us will be enjoying a new stadium and growing entertainment district.  Lamson knows what he is doing; you barely know a thing about baseball.

Bottyom line, Lamson wants the stadium downtown, wants to be near other bars, etc., and nine city councilers were in favor of the idea.  Any argument to the contrary is crap.

You lost.

We win.

We're happy.

I'm personally glad that it pisses you off the stadium is moving downtown.

When the stadium opens, I will leave a big friendly bear of my own in the stall in your honor.

Please shut up now.

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by Hoss

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by Hoss

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by Gold

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

FB:  

Driller's stadium is adequate.  It is bought and paid for.

BUT IT'S NOT AN OPTION.

The Driller's are moving.  The question is do they move to a new ballpark in Tulsa or Jenks. That's the choice.  Period. End of story.

Your point on the existing stadium is moot.  You're just digging a hole.

Public policy decisions may not be either Door #1 or Door #2.  Either A) or B).

We need to ask what is behind Door #3.

Tulsa County Fairgrounds Authority would be no worse off if the city did not respond to Lamson's blackmail.

Let Lamson threaten to move the team to Jenks. Call his bluff.

He's giving up a reasonable sure thing at Driller Field, for a Field of Dreams in Jenks.  If he elects to move, then let the Fairgrounds JACK his rent up 5x the current level to share the pain.

Let the Jenks residents pay for new stadium.  

$30 million apportioned among that tiny hamlet will be quite a tax bite that their voters may or may NOT approve.

Besides, for anyone living in far south Tulsa, including your favorite poster, Jenks is actually CLOSER than the current 15th and Yale.

Win-Win.

You have been proven wrong here as well.

There was a real risk that the team would go to Jenks.

Along with its sales tax.

All your regurgitated incorrect argument does is prove that you don't know tack taco about Tulsa.

Give it up.

You're wrong.

[:O]

Sales tax?

Goldilocks, sports tickets are exempt from Sales Taxes.  By state law.

Big fat loss.

Wrong.  Only those sports that are considered professional.  Did you not even watch the City council meeting where they discussed this at GREAT length?

How about OSU vs OU.  Those games ARE taxed.

How about merchandise?  Food?

Also, how about the fact that there will be a net gain because the new stadium is on city property, where Driller stadium is on county property and only being assessed county tax, not county AND city tax?

You're spinning your wheels now.

Huh?

Driller Stadium doesn't pay any property taxes.  It is county property owned by an Authority, exempt from ad valorem taxes.

The new Driller Stadium likewise will be owned by a Title 60 Public Authority, exempt from Ad Valorem taxes, i.e. Real Estate Taxes.

The stadium authority may or may NOT be subject to the BID assessment.  I've heard yes, and also NO.

The city may collect sales taxes on concession sales and food sales.  OR, the Authority might work a different deal on concessions, such as percentage of the gross sales, and NOT impose a Sales Tax.

You simply do not know, Goldilocks.

OK, now you think I'm Gold....you need to check your vision or something.  I was not talking about ad-valorem taxes, I was talking specficially to the misguided information you gave about sales taxes as they apply to tickets for sports events.  Sales tax by law cannot be assessed to tickets for professional sports events.  This includes such things as minor league baseball and higher.  Since college sports aren't professional, or anything labeled amateur, they CAN be taxed.

I also spoke to the extra tax the city will receive due to the stadium being on city land.

You may need to go take a nap, tired Bear.

You refer to "county AND city tax" WITHOUT specifying the TYPE of tax, and it's MY fault I assumed Ad Valorem?

There is no Ticket sales tax collected at Drillers game.  Period.

I never thought there were.

I think someone did.

The new stadium, being owned by a Title 60 Public Trust, MAY be subject to a BID assessment.

That has not been adjudicated.

Please refrain from twisting my analysis.

[Gold]

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by Gold

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

FB:  

Driller's stadium is adequate.  It is bought and paid for.

BUT IT'S NOT AN OPTION.

The Driller's are moving.  The question is do they move to a new ballpark in Tulsa or Jenks. That's the choice.  Period. End of story.

Your point on the existing stadium is moot.  You're just digging a hole.

Public policy decisions may not be either Door #1 or Door #2.  Either A) or B).

We need to ask what is behind Door #3.

Tulsa County Fairgrounds Authority would be no worse off if the city did not respond to Lamson's blackmail.

Let Lamson threaten to move the team to Jenks. Call his bluff.

He's giving up a reasonable sure thing at Driller Field, for a Field of Dreams in Jenks.  If he elects to move, then let the Fairgrounds JACK his rent up 5x the current level to share the pain.

Let the Jenks residents pay for new stadium.  

$30 million apportioned among that tiny hamlet will be quite a tax bite that their voters may or may NOT approve.

Besides, for anyone living in far south Tulsa, including your favorite poster, Jenks is actually CLOSER than the current 15th and Yale.

Win-Win.

You have been proven wrong here as well.

There was a real risk that the team would go to Jenks.

Along with its sales tax.

All your regurgitated incorrect argument does is prove that you don't know tack taco about Tulsa.

Give it up.

You're wrong.

[:O]

Sales tax?

Goldilocks, sports tickets are exempt from Sales Taxes.  By state law.

Big fat loss.

This just proves how little you know about anything.

Why do you post if you are so stupid?

Are you just wasting people's time?

There is no exchange of ideas.  You are just throwing up all these crappy arguments, none of which stick.

I never once said the tickets lead to sales tax.

My point about sales tax is a direct line from Bill Christiansen, who said during the debate on this stadium proposal (if you lived in Tulsa, you could have watched in on tv), that the Drillers create about $100K (if I recall right) in sales tax for the city every year.  I never said it had a thing to do with tickets.  The sales tax comes from concessions and merchandise, as far as I know.  But, it was one of the more eloquent and important points of that discussion -- voting against the measure would have meant $100,000 less a year for services the city already struyggles to provide.

You are just a massive failure at everything.

Poor FB.

[V]

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by Gold

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by Gold

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by Gold

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by TURobY

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

The Brady District will admittedly be proximal to the proposed Stadium.  Great.  Mr. Lamson will love you eating dinner and having drinks in the Brady District B4 you see a Drillers game.

The Brady District will be a COMPETITOR to Mr. Lamson.

Nice try, except for the fact that the food offered in the surrounding area doesn't exactly serve the same fare as the ballpark. Can you name a restaurant in the Brady District or Blue Dome that serves a hot dog or peanuts or cracker-jacks?

At my last Drillers game, although I had the heart-burn-Driller Dog, I did see hamburgers, nachos, and Mazzios Pizza on the menu.  

Along with Beer.

Common items sold as well in the Brady District.

I expect that the Brady District will benefit from the Drillers games more than the Drillers/Lamson will benefit from being proximal to the Brady District.

We'll soon see............in 2010.

Why post if you don't know what you are talking about?

Where is the Mazzio's in the Brady district?

Or the pizza for that matter?

Or the nachos? (Granted, Mexicali has nachos, but they aren't the same thing).

But, you know what, that's true of all the ballparks mentioned above.

FB is clueless.

Poor FB.

[:O]

Well, in the interest of continuing the discussion of public policy regarding the stadium, let's define Nacho:  

A corn chip with melted cheese and/or browned, chopped mystery meat with a slice of Jalapeno pepper for flavor.

Pizza is the operative menu item discussed above, to further advance this lofty public policy discussion.  

Not the MAZZIOS Pizza.

Pizza.

I'm not aware of any Mazzios Restaurants in the Brady District.  With the stadium coming downtown, we can expect several probably.  Mr. Lamson will love that.

Gee, I didn't know you were an EXPERT on every restaurant that sold Pizza downtown?

Doesn't Spaghetti Warehouse actually serve Pizza?

221 East Brady.

What "district" is the Spaghetti Warehouse located?

Sounds like....

Grady?

Shady?

Cady?

Brady?

[:X]

You lose.  

So sorry.

Thanks for playing.

Spaghetti Warehouse pretty much sucks.  But, it has stayed in busines.  

Lamson knows it is there.  Why would he move next door if he was worried about S'getti Warehouse?

The nachos you get at a Drillers game are just not the same thing that you get at a Mexican establishment.  The only reason I say that is that you appear to have never had nachos outside of Oiler Park in 1975.

Anyway, your argument on this is really poor.  The model has worked all over the country.  You have no counter-examples.  Lamson is hardly being forced to move downtown.

So, you're wrong.

Didn't get it right.

Way off base.

Incorrect.

You lose.

False.

Fail.

No.

[:O]

Mr. Lamson's business model is not based on simply selling tickets.  Tickets for general admission are priced low to get the crowd in so they'll eat and drink from the concessions.

Mr. Lamson will be surrounded by competitors in a downtown stadium.  He'll be WORSE off unless:

1)  He raises ticket prices. That will REDUCE demand for tickets.

2)  He's in on the construction deal, like a limited partnership with Manhattan.  Let's name it Stadium Builders L.P.

3)  He sells MORE seats; but he can't. This stadium will be barely 1/2 the size of Driller stadium.

Where's he gonna make the $$?

Concessions.

Okay, Goldilocks, the big bad bear will grant you a request:

You can educate yourself by reading "Field of Schemes".

It's all about the racket of sports stadium construction, and why they are a negative-gain economic model.

Available from www.amazon.com

Enjoy your education.

Ticket prices will be raised, no doubt, but there won't be a tradeoff in demand.  New stadiums always attract fans.  Down the road, he may have to lower ticket prices, or just keep them the same, but rest assured he'll get a lot of folks down there the first few years.

You cite no specific examples of where a stadium development like this failed.  You cite some book that you probably haven't read that probably doesn't apply.  I've given you several examples of cities who have done well with new ballparks.  You have no counterexamples.  You lose and you should be disqualified from the internet.

You have no evidence that he's in the construction deal.  If he's not, I hope he sues you for slander.

We've been down the stadium size discussion before and you looked a fool.  They don't sell the place out after the first few games.  Beyond that, fixed seating is 6,000 -- actual vapacity is more like 7 or 8,000.  There are things like L-U-X-U-R-Y B-O-X-E-S and B-E-R-N-S.  Whwn you factor in that he will charge more over the current tickets, which are often comped anyway, he'll probably make more and atr worst, the same over the cause of the season.

Then you pretty much commit suicide with your concesssion that his profit center is concessions.  You keep saying downtown's other venues will compete, but you have no argument WHATSOEVER to the point that other cities have taken off.  We've also had this discussion before -- and yet again, you looked like a fool -- right now, downtown doesn't bring in a lot of families or older people.  

The bars are clearly aimed at the younger crowd.  The stadium goes directly after those dollars of families and older folks.  Beyond that, some folks might want to eat somewhere else or perhaps go to a bar before or after the game or concert.  If you're at Drillers stadium these days, those options are non-existent.

Mind you, Jenks was trying to do the EXACT same thing as far as alternative entertainment options in the neighborhood.  Lamson had two options to move the stadium, because it has to move (you've been proven wrong on that point about a dozen times), and both were to put it near other entertainment options.  Regardless of how much gibberish and garbage you type, Lamson wants the stadium near other entertainment.  It's his business decision to make.

If you want to start your own baseball team, called the Central Arkansas Fudge Bears (or wherever you live), go for it.  The rest of us will be enjoying a new stadium and growing entertainment district.  Lamson knows what he is doing; you barely know a thing about baseball.

Bottyom line, Lamson wants the stadium downtown, wants to be near other bars, etc., and nine city councilers were in favor of the idea.  Any argument to the contrary is crap.

You lost.

We win.

We're happy.

I'm personally glad that it pisses you off the stadium is moving downtown.

When the stadium opens, I will leave a big friendly bear of my own in the stall in your honor.

Please shut up now.

Wow, naming your first Stadium bowel movement after a TulsaNow Forum member.

What an honor.

Did they run out of Dial soap at Tulsa Boy's Home to wash out that potty mouth?

OH, and did I mention Economics 101:

Raise Ticket Price = Less Ticket Sales.

Basic Econ.

[Gold]

quote:Originally posted by RecycleMichael

I think friendly bear is too simple for this conversation. He can't understand that having the stadium part of a thriving entertainment district is a good business plan.

He is obsessed with the food portion of the business and where people eat. I think it is because he is trying to come up with a plan to steal picnic baskets. Bears have been known to do that.

Instead, in his animal sized bear brain, he decides it must be for some other reason the Drillers want a new ballpark downtown.

Sorry bear. I'll take the business mind of Chuck Lamson over your rabid and delusional thoughts any day.

Post of the day.  What a whacko.

[Gold]

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by Gold

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by Gold

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by Gold

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by TURobY

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

The Brady District will admittedly be proximal to the proposed Stadium.  Great.  Mr. Lamson will love you eating dinner and having drinks in the Brady District B4 you see a Drillers game.

The Brady District will be a COMPETITOR to Mr. Lamson.

Nice try, except for the fact that the food offered in the surrounding area doesn't exactly serve the same fare as the ballpark. Can you name a restaurant in the Brady District or Blue Dome that serves a hot dog or peanuts or cracker-jacks?

At my last Drillers game, although I had the heart-burn-Driller Dog, I did see hamburgers, nachos, and Mazzios Pizza on the menu.  

Along with Beer.

Common items sold as well in the Brady District.

I expect that the Brady District will benefit from the Drillers games more than the Drillers/Lamson will benefit from being proximal to the Brady District.

We'll soon see............in 2010.

Why post if you don't know what you are talking about?

Where is the Mazzio's in the Brady district?

Or the pizza for that matter?

Or the nachos? (Granted, Mexicali has nachos, but they aren't the same thing).

But, you know what, that's true of all the ballparks mentioned above.

FB is clueless.

Poor FB.

[:O]

Well, in the interest of continuing the discussion of public policy regarding the stadium, let's define Nacho:  

A corn chip with melted cheese and/or browned, chopped mystery meat with a slice of Jalapeno pepper for flavor.

Pizza is the operative menu item discussed above, to further advance this lofty public policy discussion.  

Not the MAZZIOS Pizza.

Pizza.

I'm not aware of any Mazzios Restaurants in the Brady District.  With the stadium coming downtown, we can expect several probably.  Mr. Lamson will love that.

Gee, I didn't know you were an EXPERT on every restaurant that sold Pizza downtown?

Doesn't Spaghetti Warehouse actually serve Pizza?

221 East Brady.

What "district" is the Spaghetti Warehouse located?

Sounds like....

Grady?

Shady?

Cady?

Brady?

[:X]

You lose.  

So sorry.

Thanks for playing.

Spaghetti Warehouse pretty much sucks.  But, it has stayed in busines.  

Lamson knows it is there.  Why would he move next door if he was worried about S'getti Warehouse?

The nachos you get at a Drillers game are just not the same thing that you get at a Mexican establishment.  The only reason I say that is that you appear to have never had nachos outside of Oiler Park in 1975.

Anyway, your argument on this is really poor.  The model has worked all over the country.  You have no counter-examples.  Lamson is hardly being forced to move downtown.

So, you're wrong.

Didn't get it right.

Way off base.

Incorrect.

You lose.

False.

Fail.

No.

[:O]

Mr. Lamson's business model is not based on simply selling tickets.  Tickets for general admission are priced low to get the crowd in so they'll eat and drink from the concessions.

Mr. Lamson will be surrounded by competitors in a downtown stadium.  He'll be WORSE off unless:

1)  He raises ticket prices. That will REDUCE demand for tickets.

2)  He's in on the construction deal, like a limited partnership with Manhattan.  Let's name it Stadium Builders L.P.

3)  He sells MORE seats; but he can't. This stadium will be barely 1/2 the size of Driller stadium.

Where's he gonna make the $$?

Concessions.

Okay, Goldilocks, the big bad bear will grant you a request:

You can educate yourself by reading "Field of Schemes".

It's all about the racket of sports stadium construction, and why they are a negative-gain economic model.

Available from www.amazon.com

Enjoy your education.

Ticket prices will be raised, no doubt, but there won't be a tradeoff in demand.  New stadiums always attract fans.  Down the road, he may have to lower ticket prices, or just keep them the same, but rest assured he'll get a lot of folks down there the first few years.

You cite no specific examples of where a stadium development like this failed.  You cite some book that you probably haven't read that probably doesn't apply.  I've given you several examples of cities who have done well with new ballparks.  You have no counterexamples.  You lose and you should be disqualified from the internet.

You have no evidence that he's in the construction deal.  If he's not, I hope he sues you for slander.

We've been down the stadium size discussion before and you looked a fool.  They don't sell the place out after the first few games.  Beyond that, fixed seating is 6,000 -- actual vapacity is more like 7 or 8,000.  There are things like L-U-X-U-R-Y B-O-X-E-S and B-E-R-N-S.  Whwn you factor in that he will charge more over the current tickets, which are often comped anyway, he'll probably make more and atr worst, the same over the cause of the season.

Then you pretty much commit suicide with your concesssion that his profit center is concessions.  You keep saying downtown's other venues will compete, but you have no argument WHATSOEVER to the point that other cities have taken off.  We've also had this discussion before -- and yet again, you looked like a fool -- right now, downtown doesn't bring in a lot of families or older people.  

The bars are clearly aimed at the younger crowd.  The stadium goes directly after those dollars of families and older folks.  Beyond that, some folks might want to eat somewhere else or perhaps go to a bar before or after the game or concert.  If you're at Drillers stadium these days, those options are non-existent.

Mind you, Jenks was trying to do the EXACT same thing as far as alternative entertainment options in the neighborhood.  Lamson had two options to move the stadium, because it has to move (you've been proven wrong on that point about a dozen times), and both were to put it near other entertainment options.  Regardless of how much gibberish and garbage you type, Lamson wants the stadium near other entertainment.  It's his business decision to make.

If you want to start your own baseball team, called the Central Arkansas Fudge Bears (or wherever you live), go for it.  The rest of us will be enjoying a new stadium and growing entertainment district.  Lamson knows what he is doing; you barely know a thing about baseball.

Bottyom line, Lamson wants the stadium downtown, wants to be near other bars, etc., and nine city councilers were in favor of the idea.  Any argument to the contrary is crap.

You lost.

We win.

We're happy.

I'm personally glad that it pisses you off the stadium is moving downtown.

When the stadium opens, I will leave a big friendly bear of my own in the stall in your honor.

Please shut up now.

Wow, naming your first Stadium bowel movement after a TulsaNow Forum member.

What an honor.

Did they run out of Dial soap at Tulsa Boy's Home to wash out that potty mouth?

If I lived at the Boy's Home (real classy to make fun of orphans, btw), I'd trade my annual Christmas present in for a tax credit to go to you'd quit this nonsense.  Then, I'd go to the stadium and do the same thing.

Econ II: utility.  You charge what people are willing to pay.  All stadiums sell more tickets when they are new.  You can make better margins that way.  (Again, you say ticket sales aren't the relevant factor to look at, so I'm not sure why you bring it up.)  LOL at Friendly Bear's simplistic understanding of economics.

You offer no productive material for these conversations.  You repeat lies, attack good people, and cry like a baby when the tables are turned.  You don't even live in Tulsa.  You just want attention.

And because you want attention so much, I figured my friendly bear offering at the new stadium was the only part of my life worth me giving toward your need for attention.

[:X]

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by Gold

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by Gold

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by Gold

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by Gold

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by TURobY

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

The Brady District will admittedly be proximal to the proposed Stadium.  Great.  Mr. Lamson will love you eating dinner and having drinks in the Brady District B4 you see a Drillers game.

The Brady District will be a COMPETITOR to Mr. Lamson.

Nice try, except for the fact that the food offered in the surrounding area doesn't exactly serve the same fare as the ballpark. Can you name a restaurant in the Brady District or Blue Dome that serves a hot dog or peanuts or cracker-jacks?

At my last Drillers game, although I had the heart-burn-Driller Dog, I did see hamburgers, nachos, and Mazzios Pizza on the menu.  

Along with Beer.

Common items sold as well in the Brady District.

I expect that the Brady District will benefit from the Drillers games more than the Drillers/Lamson will benefit from being proximal to the Brady District.

We'll soon see............in 2010.

Why post if you don't know what you are talking about?

Where is the Mazzio's in the Brady district?

Or the pizza for that matter?

Or the nachos? (Granted, Mexicali has nachos, but they aren't the same thing).

But, you know what, that's true of all the ballparks mentioned above.

FB is clueless.

Poor FB.

[:O]

Well, in the interest of continuing the discussion of public policy regarding the stadium, let's define Nacho:  

A corn chip with melted cheese and/or browned, chopped mystery meat with a slice of Jalapeno pepper for flavor.

Pizza is the operative menu item discussed above, to further advance this lofty public policy discussion.  

Not the MAZZIOS Pizza.

Pizza.

I'm not aware of any Mazzios Restaurants in the Brady District.  With the stadium coming downtown, we can expect several probably.  Mr. Lamson will love that.

Gee, I didn't know you were an EXPERT on every restaurant that sold Pizza downtown?

Doesn't Spaghetti Warehouse actually serve Pizza?

221 East Brady.

What "district" is the Spaghetti Warehouse located?

Sounds like....

Grady?

Shady?

Cady?

Brady?

[:X]

You lose.  

So sorry.

Thanks for playing.

Spaghetti Warehouse pretty much sucks.  But, it has stayed in busines.  

Lamson knows it is there.  Why would he move next door if he was worried about S'getti Warehouse?

The nachos you get at a Drillers game are just not the same thing that you get at a Mexican establishment.  The only reason I say that is that you appear to have never had nachos outside of Oiler Park in 1975.

Anyway, your argument on this is really poor.  The model has worked all over the country.  You have no counter-examples.  Lamson is hardly being forced to move downtown.

So, you're wrong.

Didn't get it right.

Way off base.

Incorrect.

You lose.

False.

Fail.

No.

[:O]

Mr. Lamson's business model is not based on simply selling tickets.  Tickets for general admission are priced low to get the crowd in so they'll eat and drink from the concessions.

Mr. Lamson will be surrounded by competitors in a downtown stadium.  He'll be WORSE off unless:

1)  He raises ticket prices. That will REDUCE demand for tickets.

2)  He's in on the construction deal, like a limited partnership with Manhattan.  Let's name it Stadium Builders L.P.

3)  He sells MORE seats; but he can't. This stadium will be barely 1/2 the size of Driller stadium.

Where's he gonna make the $$?

Concessions.

Okay, Goldilocks, the big bad bear will grant you a request:

You can educate yourself by reading "Field of Schemes".

It's all about the racket of sports stadium construction, and why they are a negative-gain economic model.

Available from www.amazon.com

Enjoy your education.

Ticket prices will be raised, no doubt, but there won't be a tradeoff in demand.  New stadiums always attract fans.  Down the road, he may have to lower ticket prices, or just keep them the same, but rest assured he'll get a lot of folks down there the first few years.

You cite no specific examples of where a stadium development like this failed.  You cite some book that you probably haven't read that probably doesn't apply.  I've given you several examples of cities who have done well with new ballparks.  You have no counterexamples.  You lose and you should be disqualified from the internet.

You have no evidence that he's in the construction deal.  If he's not, I hope he sues you for slander.

We've been down the stadium size discussion before and you looked a fool.  They don't sell the place out after the first few games.  Beyond that, fixed seating is 6,000 -- actual vapacity is more like 7 or 8,000.  There are things like L-U-X-U-R-Y B-O-X-E-S and B-E-R-N-S.  Whwn you factor in that he will charge more over the current tickets, which are often comped anyway, he'll probably make more and atr worst, the same over the cause of the season.

Then you pretty much commit suicide with your concesssion that his profit center is concessions.  You keep saying downtown's other venues will compete, but you have no argument WHATSOEVER to the point that other cities have taken off.  We've also had this discussion before -- and yet again, you looked like a fool -- right now, downtown doesn't bring in a lot of families or older people.  

The bars are clearly aimed at the younger crowd.  The stadium goes directly after those dollars of families and older folks.  Beyond that, some folks might want to eat somewhere else or perhaps go to a bar before or after the game or concert.  If you're at Drillers stadium these days, those options are non-existent.

Mind you, Jenks was trying to do the EXACT same thing as far as alternative entertainment options in the neighborhood.  Lamson had two options to move the stadium, because it has to move (you've been proven wrong on that point about a dozen times), and both were to put it near other entertainment options.  Regardless of how much gibberish and garbage you type, Lamson wants the stadium near other entertainment.  It's his business decision to make.

If you want to start your own baseball team, called the Central Arkansas Fudge Bears (or wherever you live), go for it.  The rest of us will be enjoying a new stadium and growing entertainment district.  Lamson knows what he is doing; you barely know a thing about baseball.

Bottyom line, Lamson wants the stadium downtown, wants to be near other bars, etc., and nine city councilers were in favor of the idea.  Any argument to the contrary is crap.

You lost.

We win.

We're happy.

I'm personally glad that it pisses you off the stadium is moving downtown.

When the stadium opens, I will leave a big friendly bear of my own in the stall in your honor.

Please shut up now.

Wow, naming your first Stadium bowel movement after a TulsaNow Forum member.

What an honor.

Did they run out of Dial soap at Tulsa Boy's Home to wash out that potty mouth?

If I lived at the Boy's Home (real classy to make fun of orphans, btw), I'd trade my annual Christmas present in for a tax credit to go to you'd quit this nonsense.  Then, I'd go to the stadium and do the same thing.

Econ II: utility.  You charge what people are willing to pay.  All stadiums sell more tickets when they are new.  You can make better margins that way.  (Again, you say ticket sales aren't the relevant factor to look at, so I'm not sure why you bring it up.)  LOL at Friendly Bear's simplistic understanding of economics.

You offer no productive material for these conversations.  You repeat lies, attack good people, and cry like a baby when the tables are turned.  You don't even live in Tulsa.  You just want attention.

And because you want attention so much, I figured my friendly bear offering at the new stadium was the only part of my life worth me giving toward your need for attention.

[:X]

Simply logical to hypothesize you were an Orphan housed at the Tulsa Boys Home.

Couldn't be saying what you say here, and have had a mother.

If you did, wouldn't she be REAL proud of Goldilocks if she could read your posts?

[:O]

[Gold]

I'm sure your mom is proud that you are the town dunce on a message board for a city that you don't live in.

Actually, if my mother read some of the nonsense you spew on here, she'd probably be proud that I've made you look so silly and stood up for my town.

Where are we?  Stage 17 for Friendly Bear's defenses?  Talking about mothers?

Love how you gave up on the "discussion" bit when you got your donkey handed to you.

[:X]