Tulsa History Repeats Itself - Again?

[Hoss]

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by Hoss

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by Hoss

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by Gold

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

FB:  

Driller's stadium is adequate.  It is bought and paid for.

BUT IT'S NOT AN OPTION.

The Driller's are moving.  The question is do they move to a new ballpark in Tulsa or Jenks. That's the choice.  Period. End of story.

Your point on the existing stadium is moot.  You're just digging a hole.

Public policy decisions may not be either Door #1 or Door #2.  Either A) or B).

We need to ask what is behind Door #3.

Tulsa County Fairgrounds Authority would be no worse off if the city did not respond to Lamson's blackmail.

Let Lamson threaten to move the team to Jenks. Call his bluff.

He's giving up a reasonable sure thing at Driller Field, for a Field of Dreams in Jenks.  If he elects to move, then let the Fairgrounds JACK his rent up 5x the current level to share the pain.

Let the Jenks residents pay for new stadium.  

$30 million apportioned among that tiny hamlet will be quite a tax bite that their voters may or may NOT approve.

Besides, for anyone living in far south Tulsa, including your favorite poster, Jenks is actually CLOSER than the current 15th and Yale.

Win-Win.

You have been proven wrong here as well.

There was a real risk that the team would go to Jenks.

Along with its sales tax.

All your regurgitated incorrect argument does is prove that you don't know tack taco about Tulsa.

Give it up.

You're wrong.

[:O]

Sales tax?

Goldilocks, sports tickets are exempt from Sales Taxes.  By state law.

Big fat loss.

Wrong.  Only those sports that are considered professional.  Did you not even watch the City council meeting where they discussed this at GREAT length?

How about OSU vs OU.  Those games ARE taxed.

How about merchandise?  Food?

Also, how about the fact that there will be a net gain because the new stadium is on city property, where Driller stadium is on county property and only being assessed county tax, not county AND city tax?

You're spinning your wheels now.

Huh?

Driller Stadium doesn't pay any property taxes.  It is county property owned by an Authority, exempt from ad valorem taxes.

The new Driller Stadium likewise will be owned by a Title 60 Public Authority, exempt from Ad Valorem taxes, i.e. Real Estate Taxes.

The stadium authority may or may NOT be subject to the BID assessment.  I've heard yes, and also NO.

The city may collect sales taxes on concession sales and food sales.  OR, the Authority might work a different deal on concessions, such as percentage of the gross sales, and NOT impose a Sales Tax.

You simply do not know, Goldilocks.

OK, now you think I'm Gold....you need to check your vision or something.  I was not talking about ad-valorem taxes, I was talking specficially to the misguided information you gave about sales taxes as they apply to tickets for sports events.  Sales tax by law cannot be assessed to tickets for professional sports events.  This includes such things as minor league baseball and higher.  Since college sports aren't professional, or anything labeled amateur, they CAN be taxed.

I also spoke to the extra tax the city will receive due to the stadium being on city land.

You may need to go take a nap, tired Bear.

You refer to "county AND city tax" WITHOUT specifying the TYPE of tax, and it's MY fault I assumed Ad Valorem?

There is no Ticket sales tax collected at Drillers game.  Period.

I never thought there were.

I think someone did.

The new stadium, being owned by a Title 60 Public Trust, MAY be subject to a BID assessment.

That has not been adjudicated.

Please refrain from twisting my analysis.

Yes, from Drillers games.  You never specified which.  There are more events at the stadium than just Driller Games.  Have you forgotten about baseball bedlam.  Those ARE taxed.

I'm not twisting your analysis; you're doing that just fine on your own.

[:O]

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by Gold

I'm sure your mom is proud that you are the town dunce on a message board for a city that you don't live in.

Actually, if my mother read some of the nonsense you spew on here, she'd probably be proud that I've made you look so silly and stood up for my town.

Where are we?  Stage 17 for Friendly Bear's defenses?  Talking about mothers?

Love how you gave up on the "discussion" bit when you got your donkey handed to you.

[:X]

While tedious, it is apparently necessary for me to respond to personal attacks.  

I'd prefer to discuss the Topic of this Political forum.

There have been too many personal attacks to be happenstance.  Some TulsaNow Forum members may wonder why?

Regarding the background we bring to our deportment here in this Forum, what you may have missed in the Tulsa Boys Home is a loving Mother to inpart something that you apparently missed out on:

A CONSCIENCE.

Rather a quaint safeguard for society in today's modern age.  We have Laws now, instead.

Additionally, a Father figure helps provide a roll model for their sons on how to act like a man:

RESPONSIBLY.

Hence, my surmise about your childhood experience.

Much too late now to change.

Just surmise.

Feel free to prove me wrong.

Or, change the subject back to the Topic:

The downtown Drillers Stadium?

[Gold]

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by Gold

I'm sure your mom is proud that you are the town dunce on a message board for a city that you don't live in.

Actually, if my mother read some of the nonsense you spew on here, she'd probably be proud that I've made you look so silly and stood up for my town.

Where are we?  Stage 17 for Friendly Bear's defenses?  Talking about mothers?

Love how you gave up on the "discussion" bit when you got your donkey handed to you.

[:X]

While tedious, it is apparently necessary for me to respond to personal attacks.  

I'd prefer to discuss the Topic of this Political forum.

There have been too many personal attacks to be happenstance.  Some TulsaNow Forum members may wonder why?

Regarding the background we bring to our deportment here in this Forum, what you may have missed in the Tulsa Boys Home is a loving Mother to inpart something that you apparently missed out on:

A CONSCIENCE.

Rather a quaint safeguard for society in today's modern age.  We have Laws now, instead.

Additionally, a Father figure helps provide a roll model for their sons on how to act like a man:

RESPONSIBLY.

Hence, my surmise about your childhood experience.

Much too late now to change.

Just surmise.

Feel free to prove me wrong.

Or, change the subject back to the Topic:

The downtown Drillers Stadium?

Rest assured, my family life was very great growing up.

I won't give you any other info than that -- you won't even give me a zip code.


I'm pretty sure you were raised by senile lemurs.

Might explain why you argue like one.


You personally attack public and private figures all the time.

I turn the tables on you and you cry.

You don't want to discuss political issues.

You just make crap up.

I'm here to to point out your crap and throw it back at you.

You don't act like a man.

If you were, you'd tell us where you lived.

You wouldn't hide behind a screen name to attack people you don't know in a city you don't live in.

I've given you multiple opportunities to reveal some basic information, but like the fatherless child you are, you are cower away.

But for you, it's not about getting facts right.

It's about saying stupid stuff you know isn't right.

You can keep making up stuff about me.

I'm not going away.

Maybe you should find a new hobby.

[}:)]

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by Gold

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by Gold

I'm sure your mom is proud that you are the town dunce on a message board for a city that you don't live in.

Actually, if my mother read some of the nonsense you spew on here, she'd probably be proud that I've made you look so silly and stood up for my town.

Where are we?  Stage 17 for Friendly Bear's defenses?  Talking about mothers?

Love how you gave up on the "discussion" bit when you got your donkey handed to you.

[:X]

While tedious, it is apparently necessary for me to respond to personal attacks.  

I'd prefer to discuss the Topic of this Political forum.

There have been too many personal attacks to be happenstance.  Some TulsaNow Forum members may wonder why?

Regarding the background we bring to our deportment here in this Forum, what you may have missed in the Tulsa Boys Home is a loving Mother to inpart something that you apparently missed out on:

A CONSCIENCE.

Rather a quaint safeguard for society in today's modern age.  We have Laws now, instead.

Additionally, a Father figure helps provide a roll model for their sons on how to act like a man:

RESPONSIBLY.

Hence, my surmise about your childhood experience.

Much too late now to change.

Just surmise.

Feel free to prove me wrong.

Or, change the subject back to the Topic:

The downtown Drillers Stadium?

Rest assured, my family life was very great growing up.


[}:)]

Sure fooled me.

Back on Topic now?

[cannon_fodder]

Seriously Bear.  I think you are really upset by this so I want to respect your urge to discuss it.  But you are making it difficult.

1)  Moving the Driller's was not a threat, it was an inevitability.  They would be in Jenks.  Closer to South Tulsa, yes.  But why not put all our assets in Jenks so it can be closer to South Tulsa then?  The argument simply fails.  

If we want the Driller's to stay in Tulsa, a new stadium is required.  But that argument is not the primary reason, just a catalyst for action.

2) Driller's Stadium is an adequate facility to play baseball in.  But that is all.  It is not an adequate destination to draw in people.  The location is not adequate to make a real night of it.  The experience as a whole is to go to a baseball game and go home and nothing more.

Great ballparks do more.  Not only architecturally and for a game experience, but for entertainment.   Going out to eat, a concert, the bars.  Activity and life in the area.

I'm tired of Tulsa being adequate.  That's a "C" average and it's not good enough.

3) The financing is really a non-issue.  I want it to be scrutinized but as proposed it is fairly sound.  As many property owners are on the side of the city in the injunction as are against it.

We've crunched the numbers on all levels.  For property owners.  For County/City residents.  The funding can't be your real area of concern as it is insignificant to you (you don't go downtown by admission, so the plight of business there is of little concern and you're share is insignificant).

4) Then it is clear that you are not familiar with the area.  There is entertainment already in place.  People are willing to go downtown for entertainment and there is TONS to do.  And certainly another venue will only serve to improve that.

5) The "business" angle is purely made up.  The argument is simply weak.  Every ballpark pointed to as a success has development around it serving food and beverages.  From Wrigley, to Busch, to Bricktown and Isotopes stadium.  At our level Springfield's new park.

6) Do you live here?  This question keeps coming up and you keep failing to answer it.  I can't help but wonder why you know so little about the actual ground level goings on.

If you don't live in Tulsa, why do you care so much?  If you live in South Tulsa, do you really just not want to pay the $20 a year it might cost you?

- - -

Basically Bear, just state your argument.  You're all over the board and most of your arguments are extremly weak.  I imagine there is something else going on.  Just don't trust government with more money?  Hate downtown?  Don't want to pay your $20?

I'm happy to discuss it with you, but the current discussion is just worthless.

[Gold]

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by Gold

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by Gold

I'm sure your mom is proud that you are the town dunce on a message board for a city that you don't live in.

Actually, if my mother read some of the nonsense you spew on here, she'd probably be proud that I've made you look so silly and stood up for my town.

Where are we?  Stage 17 for Friendly Bear's defenses?  Talking about mothers?

Love how you gave up on the "discussion" bit when you got your donkey handed to you.

[:X]

While tedious, it is apparently necessary for me to respond to personal attacks.  

I'd prefer to discuss the Topic of this Political forum.

There have been too many personal attacks to be happenstance.  Some TulsaNow Forum members may wonder why?

Regarding the background we bring to our deportment here in this Forum, what you may have missed in the Tulsa Boys Home is a loving Mother to inpart something that you apparently missed out on:

A CONSCIENCE.

Rather a quaint safeguard for society in today's modern age.  We have Laws now, instead.

Additionally, a Father figure helps provide a roll model for their sons on how to act like a man:

RESPONSIBLY.

Hence, my surmise about your childhood experience.

Much too late now to change.

Just surmise.

Feel free to prove me wrong.

Or, change the subject back to the Topic:

The downtown Drillers Stadium?

Rest assured, my family life was very great growing up.


[}:)]

Sure fooled me.

Back on Topic now?

What topic?

I'll wait for your next tinfoil hat moment.

This weekend, I'll be in downtown celebrating D-fest and I'll drink a beer in your honor, knowing that it pisses off ignorant slobs like yourself.

Poor FB.

He feels left out.

[:O]

[Moderator]

This discussion is really going nowhere.

Gold and Friendly Bear, if you care to continue this discussion would you please edit down quoted text in your posts.  For those who are still following your sparring match, it's tedious to follow when the last three or four posts are quoted in their entirety.

Thank You,
Moderator

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Seriously Bear.  I think you are really upset by this so I want to respect your urge to discuss it.  But you are making it difficult.

1)  Moving the Driller's was not a threat, it was an inevitability.  They would be in Jenks.  Closer to South Tulsa, yes.  But why not put all our assets in Jenks so it can be closer to South Tulsa then?  The argument simply fails.  

If we want the Driller's to stay in Tulsa, a new stadium is required.  But that argument is not the primary reason, just a catalyst for action.

2) Driller's Stadium is an adequate facility to play baseball in.  But that is all.  It is not an adequate destination to draw in people.  The location is not adequate to make a real night of it.  The experience as a whole is to go to a baseball game and go home and nothing more.

Great ballparks do more.  Not only architecturally and for a game experience, but for entertainment.   Going out to eat, a concert, the bars.  Activity and life in the area.

I'm tired of Tulsa being adequate.  That's a "C" average and it's not good enough.

3) The financing is really a non-issue.  I want it to be scrutinized but as proposed it is fairly sound.  As many property owners are on the side of the city in the injunction as are against it.

We've crunched the numbers on all levels.  For property owners.  For County/City residents.  The funding can't be your real area of concern as it is insignificant to you (you don't go downtown by admission, so the plight of business there is of little concern and you're share is insignificant).

4) Then it is clear that you are not familiar with the area.  There is entertainment already in place.  People are willing to go downtown for entertainment and there is TONS to do.  And certainly another venue will only serve to improve that.

5) The "business" angle is purely made up.  The argument is simply weak.  Every ballpark pointed to as a success has development around it serving food and beverages.  From Wrigley, to Busch, to Bricktown and Isotopes stadium.  At our level Springfield's new park.

6) Do you live here?  This question keeps coming up and you keep failing to answer it.  I can't help but wonder why you know so little about the actual ground level goings on.

If you don't live in Tulsa, why do you care so much?  If you live in South Tulsa, do you really just not want to pay the $20 a year it might cost you?

- - -

Basically Bear, just state your argument.  You're all over the board and most of your arguments are extremly weak.  I imagine there is something else going on.  Just don't trust government with more money?  Hate downtown?  Don't want to pay your $20?

I'm happy to discuss it with you, but the current discussion is just worthless.

Has Gold hacked your TulsaNow password?

You're starting to sound like him/it.  That is disquieting.

No one's "Upset" on this end.  This Forum is a public discussion on the Topic of the Stadium.  That's simply what I've been trying to do.

That's been getting harder to do with serial personalized attacks coming my way.

I'm getting the feeling someone doesn't like WHAT I'm saying.  Not just how it's being said.

In case you haven't figured it out, Lamson's threat of a Drillers move to Jenks was a smoke screen coordinated with those who like to build things, and with those who like to build things downtown.

Fact:

Population of Jenks is:

Under 15,000.  

Population of Tulsa:  380,000

Jenks' miniscule population is going to front a tax to build a new stadium?

Would the JENKS voters approve it?

Jenks SCHOOL District, which includes the city limits of Jenks, is already the most highly taxed area in the entire state Oklahoma for Ad Valorem/Property Taxes.

They want MORE taxes?

Maybe a new Jenks Driller Stadium Sales Tax?

I certainly don't think that would be certain.

My city councilor actually voted against it.  He didn't have the time to analyze getting a data dump on him at the last minute, or even all the information to analyze with new information coming from Boylan and Lybarger at the last minute, and he said so right during the city council meeting.

In their Rush to Tax with a new BID, the stadium promoter DETAILS sort of got overlooked....

Downtown property owners inside the IDL are going to get taxed three ways:

1)  Huge increase from what they pay on the current mainmall BID.

2)  City of Tulsa property will be subject to the BID assessment.  

3)  COUNTY property will be subject to the BID Assessment.

4)  Will STATE property also be subject to the BID assessment?   We'll see.


Anyone know?


Everyone else in Tulsa County will pay for items 2), 3) and 4) above.

There was insufficient time for citizen participation and citizen analysis of this new tax.

Why weren't all of these specifics provided to the city council before they were rushed into voting for something which had a artificial deadline created by Mayor Taylor, Lybarger and Lamson, which IMMEDIATELY after approval got POSTPONED, and may be postponed again with the melt down corporate sponsor Sem Group?

Our city streets are Grade D heading to an F.

Only 4 of 22 of our public pools are open.

The new BOK Arena will open a black-hole in our city operating budget.

And someone thinks that building a new stadium will solve any problems?

Maybe just one: Manhattan's cash flow problems?

[cannon_fodder]

You didn't answer any of my questions nor direct attention to my other areas of concern.  I did not attack you in any personal way what-so-ever and the insinuation is a pathetic attempt to avoid all the valid issues I raise in your arguments.  I pointed out how and why your arguments are weak and asked you to clarify - that is not a personal attack.

I keep trying to give you an avenue to get back in the discussion on a meaningful level.  Instead you dig your hole deeper and deeper.  

You're argument has now changed to:

1) The stadium plan is too expensive and Jenks won't fund it.  

We are left to assume that we are then to reject the Driller's plan, rely on Jenks to reject the tax proposal, assume no other funding goes through and no other offers come to the table, and then accept the current facility as adequate.

Even after I fill in your argument for you, it's still weak.  

2) You then switch gears and argue:

Our streets suck, fix them first!

Which is in essence a straw man argument you have used for everything.  BOk Center, River, and now a new stadium. The argument address none the issues involved in THIS transaction and is again, weak.
- - -

Please go back and try to address the litany of issues I raised.  I am being perfectly reasonable here.  It might help to jot down your arguments and phrase them in an organized manner.  Maybe numbered with paragraphs for explanations?

[Gold]

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

Has Gold hacked your TulsaNow password?

You're starting to sound like him/it.  That is disquieting.

No one's "Upset" on this end.  This Forum is a public discussion on the Topic of the Stadium.  That's simply what I've been trying to do.

That's been getting harder to do with serial personalized attacks coming my way.

I'm getting the feeling someone doesn't like WHAT I'm saying.  Not just how it's being said.

In case you haven't figured it out, Lamson's threat of a Drillers move to Jenks was a smoke screen coordinated with those who like to build things, and with those who like to build things downtown.

Fact:

Population of Jenks is:

Under 15,000.  

Population of Tulsa:  380,000

Jenks' miniscule population is going to front a tax to build a new stadium?

Would the JENKS voters approve it?

Jenks SCHOOL District, which includes the city limits of Jenks, is already the most highly taxed area in the entire state Oklahoma for Ad Valorem/Property Taxes.

They want MORE taxes?

Maybe a new Jenks Driller Stadium Sales Tax?

I certainly don't think that would be certain.

My city councilor actually voted against it.  He didn't have the time to analyze getting a data dump on him at the last minute, or even all the information to analyze with new information coming from Boylan and Lybarger at the last minute, and he said so right during the city council meeting.

In their Rush to Tax with a new BID, the stadium promoter DETAILS sort of got overlooked....

Downtown property owners inside the IDL are going to get taxed three ways:

1)  Huge increase from what they pay on the current mainmall BID.

2)  City of Tulsa property will be subject to the BID assessment.  

3)  COUNTY property will be subject to the BID Assessment.

4)  Will STATE property also be subject to the BID assessment?   We'll see.


Anyone know?


Everyone else in Tulsa County will pay for items 2), 3) and 4) above.

There was insufficient time for citizen participation and citizen analysis of this new tax.

Why weren't all of these specifics provided to the city council before they were rushed into voting for something which had a artificial deadline created by Mayor Taylor, Lybarger and Lamson, which IMMEDIATELY after approval got POSTPONED, and may be postponed again with the melt down corporate sponsor Sem Group?

Our city streets are Grade D heading to an F.

Only 4 of 22 of our public pools are open.

The new BOK Arena will open a black-hole in our city operating budget.

And someone thinks that building a new stadium will solve any problems?

Maybe just one: Manhattan's cash flow problems?

They aren't your streets.  You don't live here.

I'm sick of you ruining TulsaNow with your awful personal attacks on talented Tulsans and looney tune conspiracy theories.

You very rarely subsstantiate your claims -- when you get called out on them, you just throw out another terrible argument/ crazy, unsubstantiated theory.

Jenks had a plan to get the stadium.  The Drillers had talked to Jenks for a couple of years.  Even if you don't buy the chance that they move to Jenks, there is another risk that Lamson was going to move them elsewhere -- with the Texas league being so small, there being nother nearby leagues, and Tulsa having no real chance of working in AAA, there was a risk we'd have no team at all.

You have no response to the argument that the county is eventually going to kick the Drillers out of the fairgrounds nor any response to the fact that the facility is no longer adequate for the Texas League.

Manhattan has no cash flow problems -- please substantiate that.  Again, when you are wrong you just make crap up.  That's pathetic.

All nine councilers were in favor of the plan.  The three who voted against it has ample time to review the package and travel with the mayor ands Lamson to other facilities.  If they can't do the busy job of city council, perhaps they should get out of the way.  The "not enouggh information" line is such a lie -- they knew the city had a July 15 deadline for quite awhile.  Ultimately, their argument is with the City Charter and a desire to have more oversight.

Building the new stadium won't solve some of the infrastructure issues facing the city, such as bad urban planning, underperforming schools, terrible public transport, and the roads.  But NO ONE claimed it would.  Those are bigger, more complicated issues.  

This stadium is a homerun, on the other hand, and all nine councilers ultimately favored the idea and location.  It will help bring more people. and different types of people, to a growing downtown district.  It means at least $100K in sales tax a year to a city with a stagnat budget (probably more).  It's not a panacea and was never intended as such.  

FB, that argument is piss poor, even for you.

You are really desperate.  But when you don't live in a city, don't follow the development and politics, and have a stick up your anal cavity (that looks like one of the Lortons), I guess that's all we can expect.

[:X]

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by Gold

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

Has Gold hacked your TulsaNow password?

You're starting to sound like him/it.  That is disquieting.


And someone thinks that building a new stadium will solve any problems?

Maybe just one: Manhattan's cash flow problems?

They aren't your streets.  You don't live here.

I'm sick of you ruining TulsaNow ..... you don't live in a city, don't follow the development and politics, and have a stick up your anal cavity (that looks like one of the Lortons)

[:X]

I'm happy to hear that you know that Manhattan has no cash flow problems.

How do you know?

They are a private company.  

You have REVIEWED their financial information?

Interesting.

Which Rooney are you?

It's my surmise they need another tax gravy train to be served up in their slop trough, to replace the BOK Arena whose payday stops for them in September.

That's what it's REALLY all about....

[cannon_fodder]

The Friendly Bear has died.

He doesn't address points, changes the subject, interjects theories with no basis and then chastises responses without sources, and repeats losing arguments OVER AND OVER.

I tried to save him.  But he didn't listen.  

Here's a picture of a dead bear:

[Gold]

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear
[
I'm happy to hear that you know that Manhattan has no cash flow problems.

How do you know?

They are a private company.  

You have REVIEWED their financial information?

Interesting.

Which Rooney are you?

It's my surmise they need another tax gravy train to be served up in their slop trough, to replace the BOK Arena whose payday stops for them in September.

That's what it's REALLY all about....

Don't turn this nonsense around on me.

You have no idea what their financials look like either, unless you moonlight as an out of state attorney or accountant -- at which point, you just breached a lot of rules.

They are a billion dollar company last I heard.  I seriously doubt they'll be hurting when the arena is finished or that the stadium is the next thing they need to stay afloat.  To wit, you can go here to find all their current projects -- they seem to be doing just fine.  http://www.manhattanconstruction.com/projects__work_in_progress.htm

Do you just like making crap up?  I'm not a Rooney.  

Please, come back when you have a real point people would want to read.  This drivel act gets really old and discourages people from posting.

Poor FB.

You're so deep in this you can't quit.  But news to you: everyone thinks you're crazy and is tired of the act (it's an act becauasse no one is really this stupid).

[:O]

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by Gold

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear
[
I'm happy to hear that you know that Manhattan has no cash flow problems.

How do you know?

They are a private company.  

You have REVIEWED their financial information?

Interesting.

Which Rooney are you?

It's my surmise they need another tax gravy train to be served up in their slop trough, to replace the BOK Arena whose payday stops for them in September.

That's what it's REALLY all about....

Don't turn this nonsense around on me.

You have no idea what their financials look like either, unless you moonlight as an out of state attorney or accountant -- at which point, you just breached a lot of rules.

They are a billion dollar company last I heard.  I seriously doubt they'll be hurting when the arena is finished or that the stadium is the next thing they need to stay afloat.  To wit, you can go here to find all their current projects -- they seem to be doing just fine.  http://www.manhattanconstruction.com/projects__work_in_progress.htm

Do you just like making crap up?  I'm not a Rooney.  

Please, come back when you have a real point people would want to read.  This drivel act gets really old and discourages people from posting.

Poor FB.

You're so deep in this you can't quit.  But news to you: everyone thinks you're crazy and is tired of the act (it's an act becauasse no one is really this stupid).

[:O]

How do you KNOW Manhattan has NO cash flow problems?

You said it.  

How?

And, you think that everyone thinks I'm crazy.

Maybe they think that.

Some I suspect think I'm right about the real reasons for the downtown stadium proposal.

And, maybe a few other things about happenings hereabout.

There are many more lurkers than posters on this forum.  

They are learning much about the Banana Republic of Tulsa............

And, if they are patient, they may learn more.

[cannon_fodder]

BOK Arena
Several St. Francis projects
St. johns
A Miami Casino
Schusterman Expansion
The Dallas Cowboys new stadium
Atlanta International Airport
2 Atlanta Schools
21 Story Apartment in Atlanta
Parking Garage for SC Medical College
A new PAC in SC
A Casino in Louisiana
350,000 sq ft office building in Houston
Pasadena Police Station
OKC University Building
OSBI Forensics Building
Native American Cultural Center
30 Story Building in Tampa
Several Schools in Tampa
Barracks in Arlington
A hospital in DC
PSTOC Lab in DC
Andrews Airforce Base center
NASA Exploration Building (DC area)
George Mason academic building
A hospital in Puerto Rico
A 4 Star hotel in Curacao

Those are the list of ACTIVE projects that I can find.  Many eclipse the BOk in size, scope, and dollar value.  Multiple projects in the Billion Dollar range.

Cash strapped or not, I don't see how donating $1mil to get the contract on Tulsa's little deal would be anything devious.  Let alone save them from their cash strapped woes.