Is Tulsa just a poor mans Fort Worth?

[USRufnex]

Is Tulsa just a poor mans Fort Worth?

Ironic question, since almost 20 years ago, back when I lived there for a single summer... I thought Fort Worth was "just a poor man's Tulsa."

Of course, Ft Worth never labeled itself the "Oil Capitol of the World" or "America's Most Beautiful City" the way Tulsa did back in the day, so I think the problems with Tulsa over the years may simply boil down to "truth in labeling." What does "comfortably cosmopolitan" really mean?!?  [}:)]

I said a few years back that I thought OKC wanted to be Dallas when it grows up... while Tulsa has wanted to be Boston... problem is, I'm thinking these days that Tulsa's approach is futile, while OKC keeps making progress... Ft Worth has always had to live under the shadow of Dallas... will Tulsa someday end up playing second fiddle to OKC in every catagory?

Since moving back here recently, I admit I  don't understand the riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma that is Midtown Tulsa... sure there are some nice areas in individual neighborhoods, but there are also some generic ranch-style homes, some bungalows you could find in just about any other city, etc, etc...

When I was a kid, it was cool to drive past downtown on I-244 to see Tulsa's affluence... in high school/college it was I-44 that showed off Tulsa... these days, I see Tulsa's wealth and affluence when I travel on the Creek Turnpike... nice landscaping, enormous, modern homes, etc... yet midtown political correctness forbids anyone show any kind of admiration for anything south of 41st Street...

Then there's TU.

TCU has roughly DOUBLE the number of students compared to TU, yet doesn't label itself "Ft Worth Univ"-- my alma mater, OCU, has a tiny fraction of the endowment TU has, yet the OC stands for Oklahoma City, while there's the quaint yet little known fact that the "T" in Univ of Tulsa stands for "THE".... the TU grads I've run into in other cities are much more likely to talk about Tulsa in only the most condescending terms than similar types who went to college in Ft. Worth or OKC...

Why is this?

[TURobY]

quote:Originally posted by deinstein

A college that blends in with the area (TCU) and seems to have had a positive impact on the area around it rather than a negative impact like TU.

This is something I've got to hear....

[MichaelBates]

quote:Originally posted by deinstein

Am I correct in assuming the comparison you all made to OKC was to degrade Ft. Worth?

I found the city to be extremely underrated and I had a great time venturing through the city this past weekend.

The downtown area is what Tulsa should strive to be. Walkable, nice shops along the curb and blends in with the high rises.

A college that blends in with the area (TCU) and seems to have had a positive impact on the area around it rather than a negative impact like TU.

Comparing it to OKC? I think you're digging deep. There is nothing in Tulsa nor OKC that is having the positive economic boom I saw in their downtown area heading towards the University.

The comparison to OKC has more to do with the parallels between the OKC-Tulsa and Ft. Worth-Dallas rivalries. Years ago (30?) Oklahoma Monthly did a whole issue about the OKC-Tulsa rivalry, and the cover depicted OKC as a cowboy and Tulsa as a mustachioed dandy, engaged in a fistfight. The Ft. Worth and Dallas rivalry could be seen in a similar light.

But you're right on all counts about Ft. Worth, deinstein. The downtown is bustling with retail (including major chains) and entertainment; they have parking, but it doesn't pervade downtown. TCU is a good neighbor, and you have some great neighborhoods and retail districts nearby. They are way ahead of us on historic preservation.

[deinstein]

quote:Originally posted by TURobY

quote:Originally posted by deinstein

A college that blends in with the area (TCU) and seems to have had a positive impact on the area around it rather than a negative impact like TU.

This is something I've got to hear....

Well, what positive impact does TU have on the area? I don't see it. All I know is a few people who are worried a private college will use eminent domain to buy them out and throw up some more suburban style apartments.

Which would be all fine and dandy...if the college brought more to the immediate area than a strip of fast food joints.

Ft. Worth has a private school in TCU, and the area around the college was nice and well-kept, and much more sustainable. I realize TCU is larger, but that likely has to do with the school taking more proactive steps than TU which is my point to begin with.

[TURobY]

quote:Originally posted by deinstein


Well, what positive impact does TU have on the area? I don't see it. All I know is a few people who are worried a private college will use eminent domain to buy them out and throw up some more suburban style apartments.

Which would be all fine and dandy...if the college brought more to the immediate area than a strip of fast food joints.

Ft. Worth has a private school in TCU, and the area around the college was nice and well-kept, and much more sustainable. I realize TCU is larger, but that likely has to do with the school taking more proactive steps than TU which is my point to begin with.

I lived in the previous apartments, and I can tell you that the new ones are a great improvement over what was there.

I'm questioning if you've been to the area around TU recently? The only area around TU that looks run-down is around 6th street towards downtown. South of TU is and has been seeing a resurgence of young buyers and renovations.

[deinstein]

I'm around the TU area on a daily basis.

...what are you seeing that I am not? I don't buy TU having a direct impact on people buying historic houses, I think those advertise themselves and people are wising up finally.

In fact, couldn't I argue the hundred of suburban style apartments they threw up take away from TU students vacating the surrounding areas?

[sauerkraut]

I love Fort Worth, I lived in the D/FW area back in the 1980's. Fort Worth has some great Museums and a planetarium on the west side of town. Every May 1st they have Mayfest in Trinity Park and a radio station and a TV station crew do a tug of war across the Trinity river. Fort Worth has a outstanding jogging trail system. I understand today the The Trinity Jogging Trail is over 35 miles long and they are building more & more jogging trails. The Trinity Trail is one of the nicest trails to run, you see wildlife & wildflowers all over and no street crossings. Texas has great night life too. The climate is warm & mild most of the year. (You can cruise around Fort Worth on google street level). I give Fort Worth very high marks. Thumbs up! Dallas & Arlington also have some great sights like a Wax Museum and 6-Flags over Texas and a new ball park. Dallas has some real nice jogging trails a popular trail circles White Rock lake and is full of runners. Texas is a blast![]

[TURobY]

quote:Originally posted by deinstein

I'm around the TU area on a daily basis.

...what are you seeing that I am not? I don't buy TU having a direct impact on people buying historic houses, I think those advertise themselves and people are wising up finally.

In fact, couldn't I argue the hundred of suburban style apartments they threw up take away from TU students vacating the surrounding areas?

I don't have figures, so I can't argue either way about it. I do know that there are still rental houses and duplexes being filled with students, and I'm also well aware of several former students who have decided to stay in the neighborhoods surrounding the University after graduation. Proximity to the University, and its accompanying free-to-low-cost events, has been a huge selling point for several of the surrounding houses.

[PonderInc]

Downtown Ft. Worth is the coolest thing in the entire Dallas area.  It's where I escape all the soul-numbing suburban sprawl whenever I'm forced to go to Dallas.

[cannon_fodder]

Wow, the community attitude towards TU reflects the wider attitude of the Tulsa community.  "What does it do for me?"

1) Well, lets start with what you have wrong.  The "T" is not to delineate it as "The" University.  But thanks for assuming we are pompous.  

UT in this part of the world means "University of Texas."  Not far East of here it means "University of Tennessee."  In fact, aTm fans decry their foes in Texas by calling them t.u. denying them the right of being THE University of Texas.  Texas fans claim t.u. simply stands for "The University."

But anyway,  "TU" is a practicality because we are overshadowed by much large "UT's" in the region.  Not a sign of self importance.

2) The apartments are certainly NOT "suburban style."  They are far more dense than the rest of the area and incorporate less than one parking sport per intended residence.  They are crammed together pretty well.  For the number of adults living in them the density in those complexes is probably as great as anywhere else in Tulsa.

On top of that, they are damn nice apartments.  But certainly, the density complaint is just wrong.

3) Rental rates in the area are still high.  To rent a house in that area you will spend $1200+ a month for even a 1 bedroom house.  Far greater than comparable residence further from campus.  Certainly the presence of the campus, the students and employees are a large factor in that.

The apartments are required for Freshmen and Sophomores under the age of 21.  General not regarded as highly desirable renters anyway.  That leaves 1500 undergraduate and 1200 graduate students looking for housing in the area, in addition to the well paid employees and those wishing to live near TU for other reasons. I'm guessing that has something to do with the area immediately around TU being nice.

3) Which brings us to the fact that the areas all around TU are nice with the possible exception of Kendall Whittier - which is just recently bordering TU.  If you travel further than 1 mile East or just 8 block North the area degrades rapidly.  It would seem strange if that was a coincidence.

4) Speaking of the area... without TU the retail/eateries in the area would probably not have developed and/or moved on by now.  All the fast food joints, the bars, the coffee shop opening up, the salon, print shop etc. would not be there.  Not too mention recent improvements to make the campus look nice all around.   Brick, lighting, and signage to make it look like a modern campus.

5)  For the area and for the community at large Tulsa also provides greens space, a library (law library not public but-for the government documents section), concerts (many free), speakers (many notable and almost all free), and on-site expertise.  Feel free to go to a concert on campus, hear a Supreme Court Justice or former head of state speak, or track down an expert in an area for a quick question.

6) Athletics.  How much are we paying for Driller's stadium?  How much subsidy do we essentially pay for the Talons and the Oilers?  If we get a MLS team, how much we will end up subsidize it?

TU plays top tier athletics in 18 different sports. Winning our conference championships more than any other school in the nation over the last 3 years.  Soccer is free and we were ranked this year.  A football game (we ended the season ranked #25) will cost $30 for an entire family.  A basketball ticket is $10 and we have a good chance to be top notch this year.

Also, visiting teams and fans take up hotel rooms.  They eat at local restaurants.  They fly in and out of our airport.  We host conference tournaments as well as NATIONAL Tournaments.

7) how much does Tulsa spend a year advertising itself?  Well, thanks to TU we were on the CBS Sports Network nearly all day for 2 weeks during the NCAA Tennis Tournament.  When TU is on TV playing football or basketball Tulsa gets mentioned to the nation more than the rest of the year combined.  When there is a big game in town and ESPN is filming from the top of Skelly they constantly cut to scenes of Bell's in the distance or our skyline.

In addition to sports fans - engineers, researchers, speakers, and government officials come to town to go to events, speaking engagements and so on at TU.  Students, parents, and relatives comes to graduations.

Name recognition is worth something, and again... it's free.  What other entity in town has as many visitors come to check out Tulsa?

If those don't count as contributions how about the sheer economic impact of having a privately funded research institution in town?  A payroll in excess of $40,000,000.00, tons of contractors and part timers after that.  4,300 students paying an average of $26,000 a year - pretending they don't touch the endowment and the students don't spend any money outside of tuition and fees - that's a $112,000,000.00 economic impact.

You want quality jobs?  I'm willing to bet in the category of "people making over $100,000 a year" the University of Tulsa is one of the top employers in town.  Add a few making at or near $1,000,000 a year just to contribute to the really rich.

Your company need work?  Do you own a construction company?  Sell lawn equipment?  Paper distributor?  Food vendor?  Heating and air?  Paint company?  Trucking?  Travel agency?  Athletic equipment?  Roofing?  Design firm?  Used books?  I know a client you could try to win.

9) What we need in this town to really succeed are educated young people.  And the University of Tulsa helps provide them free of charge to you, Joe Taxpayer.  You're welcome.

My family would never have ended up in Tulsa without the University.

10) If all that isn't good enough, the University and students do a ton of volunteering, fund raising, and mentoring in the community.  After the ice-storm the football team cleared nearby schools and parks.  There are constant blood drives, fund raising events, and collections.  The University itself is managing Gilcrease at it's own expense.  And on and on...
- - -

I don't get it.  I saw a head shop, Wendy's and abandoned bar get bought out by a notable University.  You saw some horrible monster grabbing for power.  I see economic impact, education, and community assets - and you see nothing at all.

I'd be happy to compare the differences between TU and OCU (lets start with admission requirements), but it really isn't relevant to seeing what the community gets from the University of Tulsa.

I'm taking you to a football game.  We will drink.  Tulsa will win.  You will LOVE TU.  []

[deinstein]

quote:Originally posted by TURobY

quote:Originally posted by deinstein

I'm around the TU area on a daily basis.

...what are you seeing that I am not? I don't buy TU having a direct impact on people buying historic houses, I think those advertise themselves and people are wising up finally.

In fact, couldn't I argue the hundred of suburban style apartments they threw up take away from TU students vacating the surrounding areas?

I don't have figures, so I can't argue either way about it. I do know that there are still rental houses and duplexes being filled with students, and I'm also well aware of several former students who have decided to stay in the neighborhoods surrounding the University after graduation. Proximity to the University, and its accompanying free-to-low-cost events, has been a huge selling point for several of the surrounding houses.

What I'm questioning is rather or not TU has the affect on the people buying the historic houses (either because students want to live there or because it's near TU) rather than people just buying the houses because they want a house in Tulsa with historic charm.

And I think it's fair for to point out even if this is the case, the actual college is regressive towards this type of situation due to the suburban style housing they added within the past couple of years.

[cannon_fodder]

deinstein:

1) read my post above.

2) What style of housing should they have built?  Individual houses for 1500 students?  Would you have been happy if they bulldozed 37 blocks to build houses on (20 houses per block, 2 people per house)?  Or perhaps only old-style dorms are allowed... which have been on the decline for 15 years or so.

I have to wonder how often you were in that area if you think it's regression.  Head shop, abandoned bar, Wendy's and empty over grown lots in exchange for a dozen 3 story apartments buildings.  Seems like a good trade.

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[TURobY]

quote:Originally posted by deinstein


What I'm questioning is rather or not TU has the affect on the people buying the historic houses (either because students want to live there or because it's near TU) rather than people just buying the houses because they want a house in Tulsa with historic charm.

I can't say, unfortunately, as I'm not a mind reader. [] It would make an interesting survey though.

quote:
And I think it's fair for to point out even if this is the case, the actual college is regressive towards this type of situation due to the suburban style housing they added within the past couple of years.

I can agree with you that I'm not wild about the architectural style of housing put up. But I would still argue that it increases density and that it is visually more appealing and  than the decrepit structures that previously existed.

TU is a subject that we will have to agree to disagree on. I think I've taken this off-topic.

[deinstein]

1. I read it. Now compare yourself to TCU, which was my point. Rather than ranting about your alma mater with points any college could make.

2. Larger than three stories. Parking garages. Less space, more dense. Less eminent domain. Leaving room on 11th St. for private development like this Barnes & Noble at say...15th & Delaware:

[USRufnex]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Wow, the community attitude towards TU reflects the wider attitude of the Tulsa community.  "What does it do for me?"

1) Well, lets start with what you have wrong.  The "T" is not to delineate it as "The" University.  But thanks for assuming we are pompous.

... blah blah blah... TU SPAM...

I'd be happy to compare the differences between TU and OCU (lets start with admission requirements), but it really isn't relevant to seeing what the community gets from the University of Tulsa.

I'm taking you to a football game.  We will drink.  Tulsa will win.  You will LOVE TU.  []

Thank you for demonstrating my point.  This is the TU myopia I'm talking about... and yes, pomposity... I've seen it over the years from all too many TU alums... TU has certainly added to my overall view of the size and scope of Tulsa's civic clique-ish-ness... [)]

As far as TU's admission requirements?!?... pancakes?  I could have easily gotten into TU and got a nifty little scholarship to study in a tiny little underfunded music department lacking in quality students and lacking in quality facilities... while TU overfunds their athletics and has an endowment of well over $700mil... ooh, but that new arts auditorium TU is finally building is going to be sooooooo cute...

But I grew up with TU... I grew up with TU football and basketball.  I will likely catch at least a game or two every year of football, basketball and, of course, soccer-- more if they fire Doug Wojeck... I sat at a bar full of Wisconsin fans on the northside of Chicago watching TU lose a heartbreaker the last time they got into the NCAA basketball tourney.  My aunt got her theatre degree there decades ago... back when they still had a baseball team and played SoCal in the College World Series... all while the bands and orchestras and other performance groups had concerts at various places like a church down the street, etc....

I remember on a website a few years back, someone from OKC harmlessly mentioned "Tulsa University" on one of his posts... and the TU grad made a huge histrionic point that it is...... drumroll please...... the University of Tulsa... the "T" in TU stands for "The"... as in... "THE" University of Tulsa... all hail the Harvard of the Southwest... /sarcasm.

As far as what TU contributes to the city, it certainly has been a good grassroots option for civic pride to have all the Div I athletic programs... it's been that way for decades...  OKC has that state-funded school in Norman in its backyard... it's fun to root for the underdog against the big boys when TU has a good football or basketball team... or the unique situation that was TU women's golf under McNamera...

The area around TU vascilates back and forth... there was a time when the area directly around TU was pretty seedy... and I don't think TU was a big influence either way in this regard.  The area has cleaned up pretty nicely on its own over the past decade or so, but the people I talk to about possibly buying a house around the TU area wonder when/where the next "land grab" will be...

But yes, I am more impressed from an outsider's view with what TCU does for Ft Worth over what TU does for Tulsa... especially considering the strange feeling I get from TU alums that the city of Tulsa would just curl up and die if TU wasn't doing A, B, or C...