Is Tulsa just a poor mans Fort Worth?

[cannon_fodder]

Seriously, what's your problem with TU, did they kick you out or something?  What's your school so i can sh!t all over it.  If it's Harvard your athletics suck.  If it's Duke your football was actually held in court to be THE WORST in the nation. If I just wanted to be a dick I could pick on something for every school, but most have many positive things too.

I provided perfectly reasonable answers to all your complaints and you nit-pick on sports?  Even after I stated that was the one issue I was not rational on.  But if you must...

quote:Some jackass wrote
TU is mentioned because their schedule is so easy.

ESPN predicts "Tulsa and BYU will each finish with one loss."  Tulsa beat BYU last year for whatever that's worth.

"Fearless Prediction: whomever plays QB at Tulsa will all pass for more than 4,000 yards this season."

"Tulsa -- The nation's best offense lost its quarterback to graduation, but returns nine starters, including running back Tarrion Adams who rushed for 1,225 yards and eight touchdowns and caught 30 passes and three touchdowns. Despite being one of the nation's top passing teams, the Golden Hurricanes actually had one more rushing play than passing play. The schedule is probably the most favorable in the non-BCS for an undefeated season."

College Football News and ESPN U say, "I do like CFN's fearless Tulsa prediction. I, too, think Tulsa could be a force this season if it can decide on a quarterback (my vote is for Clark Harrell). The Golden Hurricanes are in their second season with former Arkansas offensive coordinator Gus Malzahn and last year's offense was the best in the country."

Seriously, if we are on to Tulsa football your fighting an uphill battle.  We are getting a TON of respect for a non-BCS school.  BYU (former National Champs) and Utah (a few years removed from a BCS bowl) are the only non-BCS teams ever mentioned ahead of us.  But those two have to play each other as well as BYU playing UCLA and Utah playing Michigan (not sure if that counts as hard), ...  if we can beat Arkansas we have a damn good shot at going undefeated.  

Again, Utah's hardest opponant is BYU (who we beat) and Michigan (who got beat by a D-IAA).  

Are you even a football fan or did you just run off to look things up to see if you could be negative?  We're a tiny private school in Tulsa.  6 years ago we were HORRIBLE.  Now we are getting a stadium renovation, QBs are leaving because there are too many good ones, our recruiting is going amazingly well, season tickets are selling great, our coaches are being interviewed by ESPN, our AD was looked at for the Notre dame job, and the season will be a failure without playing for the conference title and winning a  bowl.

At Tulsa? Damn right.  And I'm happy with that level of success.  AGAIN, we are not vying for national Championships, but I'm proud w\of what my school has done.

quote: deinstien wrote

Tulsa f**king blows.

The entire state f**king blows.

Only an idiot would be content in this sh**hole.

Well that's nice.  Why are you so bitter?

While we're at it...


I address all your topics ad contentions point by point.  I use actual data. I challenge you to find sources.

You come back with an address and "TU football sucks."  I have fished for constructive items. I have opened the door to give praise.  I have complimented the other schools you mentioned.  I have been careful to explain things to you.

You ridicule, change the subject, and nitpick.

And here I even offered to take you to a game and have fun some fun.  Sheesh.  Do fill me in on what school you went to so I can troll the internet finding things to whine about.

[Hoss]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Seriously, what's your problem with TU, did they kick you out or something?  What's your school so i can sh!t all over it.  If it's Harvard your athletics suck.  If it's Duke your football was actually held in court to be THE WORST in the nation. If I just wanted to be a dick I could pick on something for every school, but most have many positive things too.

I provided perfectly reasonable answers to all your complaints and you nit-pick on sports?  Even after I stated that was the one issue I was not rational on.  But if you must...

quote:Some jackass wrote
TU is mentioned because their schedule is so easy.

ESPN predicts "Tulsa and BYU will each finish with one loss."  Tulsa beat BYU last year for whatever that's worth.

"Fearless Prediction: whomever plays QB at Tulsa will all pass for more than 4,000 yards this season."

"Tulsa -- The nation's best offense lost its quarterback to graduation, but returns nine starters, including running back Tarrion Adams who rushed for 1,225 yards and eight touchdowns and caught 30 passes and three touchdowns. Despite being one of the nation's top passing teams, the Golden Hurricanes actually had one more rushing play than passing play. The schedule is probably the most favorable in the non-BCS for an undefeated season."

College Football News and ESPN U say, "I do like CFN's fearless Tulsa prediction. I, too, think Tulsa could be a force this season if it can decide on a quarterback (my vote is for Clark Harrell). The Golden Hurricanes are in their second season with former Arkansas offensive coordinator Gus Malzahn and last year's offense was the best in the country."

Seriously, if we are on to Tulsa football your fighting an uphill battle.  We are getting a TON of respect for a non-BCS school.  BYU (former National Champs) and Utah (a few years removed from a BCS bowl) are the only non-BCS teams ever mentioned ahead of us.  But those two have to play each other as well as BYU playing UCLA and Utah playing Michigan (not sure if that counts as hard), ...  if we can beat Arkansas we have a damn good shot at going undefeated.  

Again, Utah's hardest opponant is BYU (who we beat) and Michigan (who got beat by a D-IAA).  

Are you even a football fan or did you just run off to look things up to see if you could be negative?  We're a tiny private school in Tulsa.  6 years ago we were HORRIBLE.  Now we are getting a stadium renovation, QBs are leaving because there are too many good ones, our recruiting is going amazingly well, season tickets are selling great, our coaches are being interviewed by ESPN, our AD was looked at for the Notre dame job, and the season will be a failure without playing for the conference title and winning a  bowl.

At Tulsa? Damn right.  And I'm happy with that level of success.  AGAIN, we are not vying for national Championships, but I'm proud w\of what my school has done.

quote: deinstien wrote

Tulsa f**king blows.

The entire state f**king blows.

Only an idiot would be content in this sh**hole.

Well that's nice.  Why are you so bitter?

While we're at it...


I address all your topics ad contentions point by point.  I use actual data. I challenge you to find sources.

You come back with an address and "TU football sucks."  I have fished for constructive items. I have opened the door to give praise.  I have complimented the other schools you mentioned.  I have been careful to explain things to you.

You ridicule, change the subject, and nitpick.

And here I even offered to take you to a game and have fun some fun.  Sheesh.  Do fill me in on what school you went to so I can troll the internet finding things to whine about.

I'm betting deinstein is from SoCal.  I have a hunch that he is....if so, he's been banned from some other forums that I frequent for being so outspoken about hating living here.  If he hates it so much, he should move on.

[SXSW]

If TU could lose some of the suburban-style businesses (fast food joints) along 11th by campus and replace it more with a Campus Corner environment that would be a big plus.  Some pedestrian-oriented shops and restaurants across from TU with apartments above would be awesome.  I can't wait to see their new "front door" once it's finished.

[USRufnex]

CF, my point still stands:  based on the size of its student body, the Univ of Tulsa overspends on its NCAA Div I athletics... on a ratio of spending to number of students, TU spends more than TCU.  And it is my opinion  that TCU also overspends on its athletics... when's the next time TCU gets into a truly major bowl game or gets another Heisman Trophy winner?  Was it really worth the tens of millions of dollars spent?... looking at your link, it appears TU spends $8.6 million per year on its football program but only generates $5mil per year in revenues... men's basketball is the closest to breaking even...

If you want to compare TU to other schools based on budgets for athletics, I don't think a comparison to OU or OSU is appropriate.  I'd be looking at schools like Wichita State or Creighton (Omaha) or Butler (Indianapolis) or Marquette (Milwaukee), all of which are urban campuses that draw from a much larger undergraduate student body...

I've observed over the years, the disconnect between TU the athletic program... and TU the small, wanna-be ivy league school with the world class petroleum engineering dept, excellent academic depts-- which now has a great college tennis facility because Michael Case wanted TU to have one... but weak in facilities for the arts... heck, even the community college at TCC has a PAC... while TU has Tyrell Hall, but will finally get a much needed 750 seat facility soon enough...

Which is a shame because TU has benefitted alot over the years from having Tulsa Opera and Tulsa Ballet in its own backyard... while UMKC has excellent programs that help Kansas City Lyric Opera and Butler Univ has a great auditorium that has hosted Indianapolis Opera for years... Wichita State students feed into the summer stock season at Music Theatre of Wichita, OCU students and staff at Lyric Theatre-- OCU's Kirkpatrick Auditorium used to host the season every summer... TCU doesn't do much (to my knowledge) for Ft Worth's Casa Manana's shows, but the Dallas/FtW area has so many college students and performers/staff, that it really isn't an issue for them...

I just wish TU would get off the fence and do one of two things...

1.  Keep the student body under 3000, go for the highest US News Top School rating it can get, dismantle the costly D-1 football program (could that $20mil in monies spent downsizing Skelly have been better spent elsewhere?!?), and go ahead and change the name from Univ of Tulsa to Kendall University........ OR...

2.  Find ways to use TU's massive endowment to double the size of the student body... try for 5,000 to 7,000 undergrads, no matter whether that means giving more scholarships to deserving students or lowering standards/student-to-teacher ratio slightly to beef up the student population... if it takes tulsa from #90 on a top 100 list to #98, wouldn't it be worth it to double the impact on the area around TU and the city itself???

ps... I'm pretty sure I paid $6 to see TU soccer last year, but the Eastman Wind Ensemble concert I saw when I considered moving to Rochester, NY a few years back was FREE.  []

[USRufnex]

Maybe my critique of TU made you believe I'm either DoubleAA or a sockpuppet... that is not the case, never met the guy.

1)  I understand TU won't ever change the name, but I'm thinking of it from the perspective of the name "Harvard" versus the name "Boston College"... the point is largely academic, since a name change will not be proposed-- I could just as easily bring up the point that my alma mater should be called Oklahoma Methodist Univ, since its endowment is almost the same and has a comparably sized student body as OBU and OCC...

2)  My point is that turning TU into a top 50 school nationally and keeping up a money-losing football program year after year after year, doesn't seem compatible, from my outsider's view... if TU wants to become a school like Stanford or Northwestern or Wake Forest or Vanderbilt, I think they really need a larger student body... a higher profile conference is unlikely at this point, no?

3)  I don't see how increasing the number of students would necessarily require another 100 acres of campus.  There are already new apt buildings on campus... TU already seems to be expanding without adding new students... why not?

I never recommended TU become a degree factory... but your opinion is yet another reason why TU doesn't belong in NCAA Div I football... it makes no sense longterm when you will have a very limited alumni base in the short-term and likely long-term as well since TU doesn't want to expand to 4,000, let alone 5000+ students... you know the drill, TU has a great year in football or men's basketball, on the cusp of national prominence... and the coach takes the $$$ and bolts off to a higher profile school with a larger student base... where's the "point of diminishing returns?"

I'm not sure why I'm being invited to a football game.... I went to TU-BYU last year and will certainly make it to a game or two again this year.... one of my fav TU memories was seeing OSU-TU when Thurman Thomas went out and this new Barry Sanders guy was on the field... TU coach was John Cooper...

I don't think the smarter students TU is seeking will attend TU based on their athletic programs... they'll do what I did back in the day..... choose the better program in their chosen field and root for the underdog in Gonzaga or Boise or TU when they're not pulling an all-niter for midterms... []

I look at the predictible ups and down of TU football and basketball over the course of decades and I just see a lot of wasteful spending..... then I see somebody like Laven Sowell who along with quite a few others over the years could have made TU into a really good music school, appealing to some excellent students and expanding the student body that way...

Many many Tulsans (including me) have supported TU for years and years despite having no real affiliation with the school... guess maybe I'm the only one who wonders what's in the water over there that causes students to badmouth the city or act like they're too good for Tulsa... some is natural for college students... ("wow, Ruf, you lived in Chicago?  Why dija move here... I can't wait to leave...")

I don't generally hear this from others who may have gone to OSU, OU, SMU, etc, etc...

[deinstein]

Anyway, I really liked Fort Worth.

That Barnes & Nobles is a pretty neat concept, huh? Who would have thought?!

Take notes, Tulsa. Take notes.

[USRufnex]

Well, Deinstein... I think these things can be cyclical...  there was a time when Tulsa was much cooler than Ft. Worth... a new skyscraper with a downtown mall complete with ice-rink and performing arts center, etc, etc... and of course, a pro soccer team that played the New York Cosmos and the Chicago Sting...

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by USRufnex

Well, Deinstein... I think these things can be cyclical...  there was a time when Tulsa was much cooler than Ft. Worth... a new skyscraper with a downtown mall complete with ice-rink and performing arts center, etc, etc... and of course, a pro soccer team that played the New York Cosmos and the Chicago Sting...

Unfortunately that seems to have become a more common refrain...  (There was a time when Tulsa was much cooler than... )


As for TU, of course its a benefit to the area and the city. It did seem to kind of linger in a state of stagnation for a long time though. But lately they have been greatly improving their campus. By doing so I think they will be able to indeed grow and do so with more quality students. My guess is that any next phase of growth will include new academic buildings and will be more student friendly, done in a way that will make the campus more enjoyable.  

I really like what Duke is doing by literally  making a "student village" with cafeteria, laundry, bookstore, coffe shop, gym, community center, etc. on the first floor then with living above, creating a lively pedestrian friendly environment for the students.  





I think that strip on the south side of 11th would be great to have ground floor retail, and restaurants while having more student living above. Could even keep the same general stuff thats there, but have it in the first floor of  3 or 4 story buildings with a wide, tree lined sidewalk in front. Either that or clear out between 6th and 7th street all the way from TU to the Pearl District. Incorporate the canals and park space of the Pearl district and just continue that all the way to TU. Then have TU expand its campus on towards downtown by building on either side of that park space. Creating a green from TU to downtown. Wouldnt of course be all TU, around Utica the park space could have more medical and office buildings on either side of it (bet Mr Bumgarner would have a field day if that kind of development space opened up lol) Then from there to Peoria and downtown continue the Pearl District Plan.  

[deinstein]

^

If you can accomplish that in Durham, you can accomplish that anywhere...including 11th Street.

[Hometown]

Just drove by the new student housing on 11th the other day for the first time and it is hideous.  Looks like a Soviet Era development.  Architect should be ashamed.  TU should have known better.  Post-Modern can be ugly on a stick and this sure is.  God save us from cheap Post-Modern architecture.  Goodbye charming 11th street.

[SXSW]

quote:Originally posted by Hometown

Just drove by the new student housing on 11th the other day for the first time and it is hideous.  Looks like a Soviet Era development.  Architect should be ashamed.  TU should have known better.  Post-Modern can be ugly on a stick and this sure is.  God save us from cheap Post-Modern architecture.  Goodbye charming 11th street.

I agree, the new housing isn't that attractive.  But it's also not horrible.  OU has put in some new student housing in Norman that is much worse.  Actually if the aprtments came up to the street it would be much better as the actual buildings aren't bad and sort of match the campus.  They really need to plant trees, that would be a big improvement.  And it would be nice to see some of the mixed-use retail/housing TheArtist speaks of along 11th street, especially just south of the new green space in between the new apartments, kind of a "book end" to that space with residential on 3 sides and Collins Hall at the north end.

[cannon_fodder]

quote:Originally posted by Hometown

Just drove by the new student housing on 11th the other day for the first time and it is hideous.  Looks like a Soviet Era development. . . . Goodbye charming 11th street.

Charming:


I don't have any shots of the abandoned lots or boarded up buildings to show how charming it was.

The "new" housing is the same as the housing that has been on campus for 5 - 7 years now.  It is designed to blend in to the building that have been on campus for 80 years or so while not appearing dated.

And comparisons to Soviet architecture are so off the mark I won't bother pointing out the differences. They were hovels.  These are bright, spacious and non-imposing.  Go Google "soviet apartment" and find something appealing.

I'm not claiming they are grand works of architectural wonder.   They are practical on campus housing.  But to say they are "hideous," that someone should be "ashamed" or that they resembled Soviet apartments is just not accurate.

And cheap.  lol.  ~$150,000,000+  in construction in the last few years and it's cheap?  Wow.   Fairly confident that is the most any private group has spent in Tulsa in the same time period.  If you would like something more appealing to you, they accept donations and they are tax write-offs.  Chip in your 2 cents.

And reminiscing about a charming stretch of 11th Street?  Empty lot, bright yellow head shop, bright blue used record store (how often do you go to it now? and did I mention they were run down and un-mowed most of the time), abandoned building, boarded up bar, empty lot, diner, Wendy's.  Not a stretch most would consider charming.  

quote:They really need to plant trees, that would be a big improvement.

Go to 11th and 8th Street.  They have dozens of trees waiting to be planted.

I agree.  It isn't perfection.  The village concept would have been cool and I hope they adopt it if they expand more.  But then we will hear how college campuses need more green space or how they tore down a neighborhood just for green space.  Damned if you do...

Kind of like Tulsa building on campus housing to start with.  It was "just a commuter school" now they are "and grabbers" and ugly.  OSU-Tulsa needs to build on campus housing, when they do I'm sure they'll get the same treatment.  Damn if you don't.

This conversation is going in circle after circle.  I don't mean to say you can't have your opinion.  Just pointing out WHY it appears that way and why it is frustrating to hear such harsh criticism.

[Hometown]

Cannon I grew up here and hung out on 11th and I don't need to see one of your pictures to know that 11th street had a certain charm that has now been lost, at least in the TU area.

I know you are a TU fan but they have made a serious mistake that we will have to live.

Doesn't mean TU is all bad, just very poorly advised in regards to these new structures.

And cosmetic adjustments to reduce the error aren't going to help much.  This is just downright unfortunate for all of us.

[deinstein]

Their argument is regressive. All they will say is well look at what WAS there...while we will say what SHOULD be there.

No one here is saying they miss what was on that side of 11th besides a few of us who liked the Metro Diner and a few potheads at a head shop who hate eminent domain from a PRIVATE university.

My argument (and I think most others?) is that you could have done better. I gave you a solid example with the TCU bookstore and you went right back to the damn what WAS there argument.

[cannon_fodder]

HT, I can not attest to what was there in the 1950's.  And I really don't care in this discussion.  All I know was what was there in 2000 and what is there now.  The area has been improved.

deinstein, I agree that they could have done better.  But they have to balance practicality with function.  A new bookstore just wasn't going to happen (there are 4 bookstores within 3 miles of there), a "village" wasn't needed, parking garages are too expensive.  Clearly it isn't perfect, but it's not the pit of despair built atop what was a "charming" street scape either.