Mayo Building (Not Hotel)

[MichaelBates]

quote:Originally posted by Hoss

quote:Originally posted by MichaelBates

quote:Originally posted by wavoka

I hope they tear the old Y down. It is a disgrace. The entire corner of 6th & Denver is a collection of ugly donkey buildings.

The Y and the Community Care Building look like Soviet style architecture. The of course there is the courthouse which is ugly in its own special way.

From the center spread of Tulsa I. T., a 1957 tourist guide to "America's Most Beautiful City":

quote:
Tulsa county's new $4 million courthouse, the new inspiring YMCA, the fabulous Gilcrease Institute, Mohawk park and zoo, and the American Airlines Overhaul and Supply Depot are places and points of interest well worth seeing, even though they are off the beaten path of the Tulsa Tour.

The YMCA and the Courthouse make up two of the nine photos on the description of the Tulsa Tour -- two buildings most worthy of admiration and attention, according to the Chamber of Commerce in 1957. Funny how tastes change.

Stop living 50 years ago.  That is 99 percent of what is wrong with this community.  Our preponderance to living in the past.  We should celebrate it, but not try to hold on to it.

Someone tinkle in your Lucky Charms, Hoss?

I don't particularly care for the buildings (although I don't hate them as much as some do, evidently). I was only remarking on how the architectural triumphs of one decade are ignored or despised in another.

Also, it tells me something of the attitudes of civic leaders at the time that they would spotlight two fairly new buildings and mostly ignore the buildings that we consider downtown's gems. (They did mention Boston Ave. Methodist, but only in the text -- no picture.)  That in turn helps explain the approach to city planning that they took in the late '50s and '60s, and why so many attractive but older buildings of art deco and other styles were demolished without a thought.

That in turn should inform the way we think about preservation and planning from this point forward.

Living in the past is not holding Tulsa back. Not understanding, learning from, and coming to terms with our past is.

[TheArtist]

I know I am in the minority here, but I like the way the old city hall building and the Y look. They remind me of the eras in which they were built. We cant just like really old or really modern.  It would be a shame to have a downtown that didnt have many examples from all time periods.  

Just as Bates pointed out what was deemed worthy and beautiful at one time, you have to step back a bit and realize that we too will feel that way and will see some buildings as being ugly that in the future will be seen as being quite novel and beautiful once again. Given some more time those buildings will begin to stand out and definitely speak to the era in which they were built. Remind us of those times, the movies that were made, advertisements, television shows that had those types of buildings in them, the way people lived back then, the cars they had, the clothes they wore, furniture styles, etc. All things that go out of style, look ugly, then become novel and nostalgic.

The sad thing is, is that you will most likely miss them the most, a decade after they are gone. That not having those examples, in a downtown filled with all kinds of other styles, will in itself suddenly make you aware of what you dont have. Then you will start looking at the next group of "old nasty" buildings built in the 70s and 80s and go "Ugh that needs to go or be redone".

Heck, I have noticed how our whole downtown is starting to look very dated, stagnant and old. I remember a long time ago driving past some of the old rust belt cities when I lived in upstate NY and thinking, wow, you can tell when they had their heyday and then it all just stopped and their city died. Thats what our downtown is really starting to look like. The tallest skyscrapers we have that were built around the 80s make our city look like it is stuck in a dusty time warp compared to other cities that have newer architecture, signs of recent economic activity. Its not going to be long before those buildings start looking "ugly" themselves. (do this little experiment, drive past downtown on one of the highways and try to look at it with fresh eyes... its kinda sad folks. It looks like a city that died a long time ago. The new city hall and the new Arena are the only signs of life during the last couple decades.)

Each generation cant just tear down the previous ones buildings when they get to that "ugly" stage. Otherwise you will forever be gutting your history and architectural diversity. Its our kids who will look at those buildings and think,,, Wow, thats really neat. Hard as it is to believe now lol.

[carltonplace]

New windows and entrance would completly change the look of this building. Adaptive reuse is preferable to demolish and dump. It doesn't need to be torn down.

[booWorld]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

Each generation cant just tear down the previous ones buildings when they get to that "ugly" stage. Otherwise you will forever be gutting your history and architectural diversity.

Tulsa's history has been a series of tear downs.  This can be seen time and time again in the Beryl Ford Collection and the old Sanborn maps.

[Renaissance]

For some reason I'm okay with City Hall demolition but tearing the Y seems very undesirable.  I guess it's because City Hall seems so remote but they Y is a part of the Denver streetscape and another empty lot would only make downtown more barren.

I really think the IDL needs a demolition approval panel skewed toward preservation and adaptive reuse.  Not that our bureaucracy works all the time, but such a procedure might have saved the Skelly Building.  In the case of the Y, such a panel could at least insist that demolition plans be accompanied by development plans that replaced the building with a comparable structure and not a parking lot.

[carltonplace]

+1

[MichaelBates]

quote:Originally posted by Floyd

For some reason I'm okay with City Hall demolition but tearing the Y seems very undesirable.  I guess it's because City Hall seems so remote but they Y is a part of the Denver streetscape and another empty lot would only make downtown more barren.

I really think the IDL needs a demolition approval panel skewed toward preservation and adaptive reuse.  Not that our bureaucracy works all the time, but such a procedure might have saved the Skelly Building.  In the case of the Y, such a panel could at least insist that demolition plans be accompanied by development plans that replaced the building with a comparable structure and not a parking lot.

There was a demolition review component to the CORE Proposals, but the Taylor administration, at the urging of DTU and a few downtown property owners, pulled the plug on the idea.

By the way, Floyd, I supported the CORE Proposals enthusiastically on my blog and in my column.

[Renaissance]

Thanks for the link.  I think I got the idea from reading that a while back, but I couldn't remember where it came from.  Were any reasons giving for rejecting the proposal?  

quote:
5. DEMOLITION REVIEW
A demolition permit review process should be created to prevent the loss of buildings that may have historical or architectural significance, and to provide the time necessary to consider alternative uses
for the structure. This review process should consider the findings of the above-mentioned Survey, parking policies, comprehensive planning efforts, and incentive promotion. However, given the urgency of this issue and the finite number of historic structures in Downtown, the review process should be put into effect as soon as possible.

* A review panel designated by the Tulsa Preservation Commission should review applications for demolition of existing Downtown buildings, triggering a stay of demolition no longer than 120 days.

* To begin the review process, the demolition permit applicant will provide to the review panel the following information:
1. Necessity of proposed demolition
2. Economic value of the building from the owner's or developer's perspective
3. Engineer's or architect's report of structural condition of the building
4. Proposed use for the site after demolition, including economic value of new use

* The demolition review panel will determine and report to the Tulsa Preservation Commission the following information:
1. Historic and/or architectural significance, as determined in the downtown Survey
2. Effects of proposed demolition on surrounding urban fabric
3. Feasibility and opportunities for continued use or reuse of the structure
4. Potential incentives available for rehabilitation and reuse
* Based on panel's report, the Tulsa Preservation Commission would vote to recommend to the Building Inspector either approval or denial of the demolition permit. The Tulsa Preservation Commission's decision could be appealed to the Board of Adjustment.

[booWorld]

Leon B. Senter was the architect for the YMCA building.  He was involved with the design of many notable buildings in Tulsa, including:

- The Coliseum, east side Elgin between 5th & 6th Street (1928)

- Philcade, southeast corner 5th and Boston (1930)

- University of Tulsa Stadium (Skelly Stadium) (1930)

- Tulsa Fire Alarm Building, 8th and Madison (1931)

- Tulsa Municipal Airport Administration Building, northeast corner Sheridan and Apache (1932)

- Union Bus Depot, northeast corner 4th and Cincinnati (1935)

- Will Rogers High School, 3909 East 5th Place (1938)

- Service Pipe Line Building, northwest corner 6th and Cincinnati (1946)

- Booker T. Washington High School, 1631 East Woodrow Place (1950)

- Tulsa Municipal Theater (an interior remodel of and additions to Convention Hall -- the big yellow brick lobbies on the front of the Brady Theater were part of this project), northwest corner of Boulder and Brady  (1953)

Senter was issued License #1 when the Oklahoma architectural licensing law went into effect around 1930.

Senter's renderings for YMCA building:


Photo source:  Beryl Ford Collection / Rotary Club of Tulsa, Tulsa City-County Library, Tulsa Historical Society

[Renaissance]

Would be a shame if another use for that building isn't found.

Would be a sin if the building is replaced by anything that doesn't address the street and add to the urban fabric in the same manner (for a bad example, see what Trinity Episicopal did in replacing the Auto Hotel).

Would be a mortal sin if the building is replaced by parking.

[perspicuity85]

The YMCA building, as well as the City Hall complex, look boring to many because that is how they were intended to look.  Both are examples of International Modern architecture, which focused on honest, rigid building shape and form.  You architecture buffs may recall that the whole International Modern movement was largely influenced by architect Mies van der Rohe, who coined the phrase "less is more."  

Personally, I find the YMCA more aesthetically pleasing than the City Hall complex.  If our society continues to place a value on historical allusionism, it is quite possible that both structures will be looked upon with great nostalgia in the coming decades.  That being said, the whole concept behind International Modern architecture is the absence of the very things that tend to inspire artistic taste in general.  So who knows?  All I know is, I'll take an ugly building over a surface parking lot any day.

[booWorld]

quote:Originally posted by perspicuity85

All I know is, I'll take an ugly building over a surface parking lot any day.

Strangely enough, the YMCA Building site was previously a surface parking lot.



Source:  Beryl Ford Collection / Rotary Club of Tulsa, Tulsa City-County Library, Tulsa Historical Society


There's a "historical" precedent for surface parking at that location!

[perspicuity85]

quote:Originally posted by booWorld

quote:Originally posted by perspicuity85

All I know is, I'll take an ugly building over a surface parking lot any day.

Strangely enough, the YMCA Building site was previously a surface parking lot.



Source:  Beryl Ford Collection / Rotary Club of Tulsa, Tulsa City-County Library, Tulsa Historical Society


There's a "historical" precedent for surface parking at that location!

That is interesting- great photos, by the way.  I must say that despite generally wanting to preserve the history of 20th century America, there are many things I do not wish to preserve, such as: Jim Crow laws, smoking in airplanes, prohibition, and surface parking lots in urban areas!

[Townsend]

I drive by it every day and while I do not wish for surface parking in any way...it is much more attractive in a black and white photo.

I'm guessing the 50's era cars are adding to my attraction.

[BKDotCom]

I will simply add that the YMCA building is the only bldg on that black.    Raising it would leave a huge void.