WalMart: A Disgrace

[booWorld]

quote:Originally posted by we vs us

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

I just try to remember to shop as local as possible. Need and can do better, but its a better habit worth cultivating imo.

Artist nailed it.  Shopping local makes sure your money stays in the community. We do it as much as we can, too.

The proposed downtown Walmart would have been within walking distance or a short drive of where I live.  Still, I intended to boycott it because (among other reasons) I didn't like the idea of a TIF district, and I thought the proposed exterior looked too suburban for central Tulsa.

[RecycleMichael]

Long blank walls of a super store just don't work in a downtown. Buildings in a walkable environment need windows.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by we vs us

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

I just try to remember to shop as local as possible. Need and can do better, but its a better habit worth cultivating imo.

Artist nailed it.  Shopping local makes sure your money stays in the community. We do it as much as we can, too.

Wal-Mart has been working on its business practices lately, trying to source local produce and pushing for some strong green intiativees inside the company.  Just like it's always done, Wal-Mart's willing to use its size and clout to change the business environment; this time, at least, it's using that clout for good, not evil.

I still like Target better, though.  

Believe me, the green approach and providing local produce/products has more to do with profit objectives than altruism.  Cost of fuel is up, costs more to operate stores (higher electricity and nat. gas) and to get products to the stores.  Use less energy, ship items shorter distances= >profit margin.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by inteller

quote:Originally posted by T-Town Now

I DO NOT shop at Wal-Mart. Ever.

It is un-American.

Stupid people think they're saving money, so they pull in to Wal-Mart in their FOREIGN CARS to buy FOREIGN CRAP, and they don't even realize they're literally shopping themselves out of a job.

those "foreign" cars you speak of are most likely made here.  Go look where a Ford or GM product is made.  Chances are it is mexico or Canada.  Don't pull that bull****.  Many many Toyotas and Hondas are made here (which is why their reliability is falling)

I'll tell you what is un-american.  Unions.  They have ruined this country with their lazy entitlement work ethic.  Unions are unneeded in this country.  They and the government have created a lazy handout craving society.  Those "jobs americans won't do" are a result of this...because those lazy americans think they are too good and would rather just take a gov handout, or go on strike because they want $20 hr to drive a rivet.  

The bottom dwellers of our society need to get off their asses, stop whining, and go do the jobs they have willingly let illegals take.  ANd if they don't like digging ditches and picking cabbage, then they need to go get an education.  And don't give me the line about keeping a job and going to school is hard.  There are people in 3rd world countries that do it every day.  That is why they are making all the "foriegn crap" and we are buying it from them.

Great Granpa? Is that you?

[we vs us]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

quote:Originally posted by we vs us

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

I just try to remember to shop as local as possible. Need and can do better, but its a better habit worth cultivating imo.

Artist nailed it.  Shopping local makes sure your money stays in the community. We do it as much as we can, too.

Wal-Mart has been working on its business practices lately, trying to source local produce and pushing for some strong green intiativees inside the company.  Just like it's always done, Wal-Mart's willing to use its size and clout to change the business environment; this time, at least, it's using that clout for good, not evil.

I still like Target better, though.  

Believe me, the green approach and providing local produce/products has more to do with profit objectives than altruism.  Cost of fuel is up, costs more to operate stores (higher electricity and nat. gas) and to get products to the stores.  Use less energy, ship items shorter distances= >profit margin.

Oh, I know.  I'm not a complete Pollyanna.  But as far as I'm concerned, it's an ideal confluence of profit motive and green policies.  To me it's proof of two things:  1) the corporate world is willing to adopt green policies if it can positively affect their bottom lines and 2) the corporate world will be a prime mover in changing overall societal behaviors towards environmental stuff.

I read an interesting article in the NYTimes this morning that talked about how shipping costs were starting to put a crimp on globalization's reach, and one of the quotes that came out name-checked Wal-Mart's supply chain system directly, saying that in part what made them so successful was cheap transport costs, and now that oil is so expensive it's getting more and more impossible to get the cheap prices they -- and we -- are used to. It's a no brainer, and is exactly what you were saying at the top, but I didn't realize that Wal Mart's logistics were so tied into and representative of the global supply chain.  And that they were so hugely reliant on cheap fuel.  

[cannon_fodder]

I love these threads.  It is obligatory to bash Wal-Mart about every 3 months or so.  But few people seem to really care about the details.

If Wal-Mart is evil, un-American, and harmful to the population then the logic is that people are too stupid to pick where to shop, business are too stupid to compete (generally on something other than price), and American workers are too stupid to quit if something better comes along.

Most people aren't stupid.  They shop there to get good prices, business adapt, and people are smart enough to take the best job they can get.  If it makes you feel better to pretend Wal-Mart is evil and you are smarter than everyone else by figuring that out, then fine. But it probably just isn't the case:


If you want some perspective read this article:
http://www.startribune.com/local/25130494.html?location_refer=Local%20%20%20Metro


It is by the Minneapolis Star-Tribune (wealthy city, home of Target, hates Wal-Mart) and sheds light on this situation.

- Average Wal-Mart associate in Minnesota makes $11.30 an hour, has health benefits, gets discount prescriptions, vacation pay, and performances bonuses.

- According to an Ohio University & U of Minnesota economics studies, Wal-Mart's pay is comparable to other retailers (including Target and mom and pop shops)

- 2/3 of Wal-Mart store managers (who earn close to or above $100K depending on the store) were once hourly workers.  Same for other manager positions. (dead end job?)

- 100,000,000 Americans shop at Wal-Mart each week (poor dumb bastards...) and 1.3 million American's are employed by them (largest employer)

- The most recent store opening in Minneapolis saw 6000 applicants for 325 jobs (must be a horrible place to work to attract that many applicants)

- The average family saves between $900 - $2300 a year by shopping at Wal-Mart (keep in mind more poor people shop there than affluent, so as a % of income that's HUGE)

-

quote:W. Michael Cox, chief economist at the Federal Reserve Bank of Dallas, summed it up this way speaking to the New York Times: "Wal-Mart is the greatest thing that ever happened to low-income Americans."

- Grocery prices drop an average of 10 to 15% in markets Wal-Mart enters

- Wal-Marts savings stem NOT from beating down workers (average pay = the same), nor from sub-par goods (they sell the same thing everyone else does, made where everyone elses' crap is made) but FROM EFFICIENCY.   In purchasing, distribution, in store layout, climate control, checking out... everything.   To me, this means a damn zoo with no service - but for many people it's worth the savings.  (I hate efficiency, I DEMAND an inefficient product!)

-

quote:economists credit Wal-Mart with single-handedly increasing American productivity and substantially reducing inflation in recent years.

- Wal-Marts prescription drug initiative (generic drugs for $4) saved consumers $1,030,000,000.00 in the first 18 months.  In response other pharmacies are being force to meet those prices, increasing the prescription drug savings (evil Wal-Mart, hurting drug companies).


So march on!  Keep hating on Wal-Mart to help protect those stupid poor people.  Someday they will be as smart as you and know better to take a job at Wal-Mart or save money by shopping at Wal-Mart.  In fact, the reason those people are poor is probably because they aren't smart like you and THAT's why they shop/work at Wal-Mart to begin with.

So we need to punish Mal-Mart, raise their costs, tax them more, and keep them out of our communities... to help the stupid poor people who want them to come, because they don't know any better.  We, the ruling elite, need to protect the proletariat from themselves!
- - -



And for the "they took our jobs!" folks...  if an American can make a plastic toy for $10 or a Mexican for $5, I'll be buying it from the Mexican.  The $5 I saved will then be spent on other goods.  Thereby raising my overall standard of living.

Hear this and accept it: low skill manufacturing jobs will migrate away from high-wage locations.   The jobs will either move away or be automated (my uncle made $~52,000 a year plus great benefits putting bolts on tractor wheels at John Deere.  A job a robot now does more accurately, faster and cheaper).  More expensive labor clearly can not compete on price - if they can not compete on quality, service, or brand name either... then they are out of business.  

Simple really.  And good for the overall economy.    While detrimental to a handful of workers, the net effect is a higher standard of living for the nation.  Trade increases the standard of living by seeking efficiency. If all we did was "buy American" our standard of living would be halved.  

As it stands our manufacturing has improved in many sectors and is highly efficient on a global market (boiler or tank makers in Tulsa at the moment).  Our quality in areas remains higher. Our technical skills are superior and can demand compensation in a global market.  Competing by being cheap is not the only (or best) way to success.

- - -

To the UNION crowd:

Unions can be a very positive engine.  Foremost, the coal industry in the US has been vastly improved in terms of safety AND efficiency.  Hours are at a sane and safe level.  Workers have an avenue of grievance so they are less likely to get trampled on and management has a standardized list of what is expected from the workers in return.

But Unions also cost a ton of jobs.  They're stated purpose includes to raise the labor cost of the company.  Making it economical to automate or move those jobs. (aka Inteller is right in this regard... that's painful to say)

Mining is now mostly automated.  The automobile industry is both heavily automated and in deep trouble.  Airlines are struggling.  Most heavy manufacturing has automated, found cheaper labor over seas, or gone bankrupt.  Nearly every industry that had a strong union and can be automated/exported has been (airlines can't be automated, they are just going out of business).

The fact is that if a company abuses it's workers, they will leave and cripple the company.  If the workers get too strong and abuse the company, the company will find a way to shed workers.  The labor market is no different than any other:  supply and demand. Low-skill jobs are by definition not in high demand and in high supply... unionizing does not change this fundamental fact.

Wal-Mart general employs unskilled people.  A high school kid can run a register , stock shelves, or sell hunting licenses (I worked at K-Mart in high school).  What skill set is Wal-Mart expected to pay for?  

I'm not anti-union.  I worked very closely with the IUOE (627) here in Tulsa for a number of years.  They standardize and simplify things for both parties.  They can ensure safety and equality.  Working with and influencing companies both the workers and the companies can see income grow.

But they are not necessarily a positive influence for the working man.  The fathers at GM, Ford, and US Steel did just fine... but ask their kids how they like it.  The answers will vary widely, because they all work somewhere different.

I can't say which way it will go at Wal-Mart, but as low-skill workers I really don't see how a union can be effective in the long term.
- - -

Overall:

Any company as big as Wal-Mart has both a ton of influence and draws a ton of controversy.  I am not an expert on their labor practices and they very well may need to be called out on it.  

They have changed many things, but they haven't driven anyone out of business (shoppers do that).  They haven't suppressed wages (pay is comparable to other retailers).  They haven't forced US jobs over seas (consumers & cost of labor).  All they have done is provided a choice, which we have accepted.

My major gripe is the wholistic "Wal-Mart is evil" garbage that has become to popular. You can hate the changes they have brought about, but blaming a company for providing an alternative seems a little strange to me.


/disclosure, I hold  a few hundred shares of WMT.

[RecycleMichael]

I really appreciate the new signature line you have.

[booWorld]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder


Overall:

Any company as big as Wal-Mart has both a ton of influence and draws a ton of controversy...

...You can hate the changes they have brought about, but blaming a company for providing an alternative seems a little strange to me.

Any metro area as large as Tulsa's (850,000 square miles and nearly 1 million people, according to you) will draw a number of opinions and preferences from its residents.

I most likely own Walmart stock also (within some mutual funds).  I really don't know if I do or not.  But other than the neighborhood markets, I really have not enjoyed my visits to Walmart stores.  The buildings are generally too big and too spread out for my taste.  I don't think the company is evil, but I find the shopping experience at many Walmart stores to be annoying and inconvenient.

I don't mind that Walmart provides an alternate for savvy (or stupid) shoppers.  But I thought the idea of a proposed TIF district in downtown Tulsa to help finance the construction of yet another big box with a sea of asphalt parking on yet another super-block was poor, stupid, and ill-advised.

Hear this and accept it:  Some people are stupid.  Some people post stupid junk on this forum.

[Wilbur]

quote:Originally posted by booWorld

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder


Overall:

Any company as big as Wal-Mart has both a ton of influence and draws a ton of controversy...

...You can hate the changes they have brought about, but blaming a company for providing an alternative seems a little strange to me.

Any metro area as large as Tulsa's (850,000 square miles and nearly 1 million people, according to you) will draw a number of opinions and preferences from its residents.

I most likely own Walmart stock also (within some mutual funds).  I really don't know if I do or not.  But other than the neighborhood markets, I really have not enjoyed my visits to Walmart stores.  The buildings are generally too big and too spread out for my taste.  I don't think the company is evil, but I find the shopping experience at many Walmart stores to be annoying and inconvenient.

I don't mind that Walmart provides an alternate for savvy (or stupid) shoppers.  But I thought the idea of a proposed TIF district in downtown Tulsa to help finance the construction of yet another big box with a sea of asphalt parking on yet another super-block was poor, stupid, and ill-advised.

Hear this and accept it:  Some people are stupid.  Some people post stupid junk on this forum.

The entire state of Oklahoma is just under 70,000 square miles.  Hard for Tulsa to be 850,000.  That would encompass several states.

[booWorld]

quote:Originally posted by Wilbur

The entire state of Oklahoma is just under 70,000 square miles.  Hard for Tulsa to be 850,000.  That would encompass several states.

As I said, some people post stupid junk on this forum (and expect others to be stupid enough to believe it, I suppose).

[TURobY]

The Tulsa metropolitan area (as defined by the U.S. Census Bureau) is 6,240 square miles.

[booWorld]

quote:Originally posted by TURobY

The Tulsa metropolitan area (as defined by the U.S. Census Bureau) is 6,240 square miles.

Wow.  If that's the actual number, then cannon_fodder has only over-stated it by a factor of 136, which is well within the margin of error tolerated on this forum.  

Not too shabby at all...

---Sybil

[guido911]

For anyone interested, and if you can handle the vulgarity, Penn & Teller did a Bullsh*t episode on Wal-Mart haters. I thought it was well done.

[cannon_fodder]

Penn and Teller: Walmart hated is Bullsh!t.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGb9OLqsvV8

Uncensored.  The talking one drops the F-Bomb a few times, and some more mild words.  Funny, informative.

Pretty well mirrors what I said, but in a more entertaining way.

[edit]By a few, I mean a lot.  But it is very balanced... they call Walmart out when they deserve it, repeatedly.[/edit]

[inteller]

OMG, that P&T piece was AWESOME!  I almost spit out my drink when he called out those "jive donkey ****ers"