Drillers Deadline Today (again)

[RecycleMichael]

The Drillers have seven games left this season. I am going to at least two of them.

Anyone else on this thread going to the games this week? I hope so, especially with so many experts on how the minor league baseball business works.

Free tickets for tonight's game and tomorrow nights game at all area sponsors. Tomorrow is Myron Noodleman, Thursday is 2 for 1 cheeseburgers and margarita coolers, Friday is mustache night and Saturday is fireworks. Kids eat free on Sunday and Monday the Drillers actually give their jerseys to lucky fans.

[MichaelBates]

quote:Originally posted by Gold

It's the same argument that Friendly Bear makes over and over again (I'll admit that I see it and my need to bash fools on the internet kicks in).  Revenue is the factor.  A lot of nights (like tonight and tomorrow night) the Drillers hand out free tickets around town.  They make their money off selling beer and hot dogs, not cheap (or free) seats.

I realize you say you are in favor of the stadium, but you also have a history of talking about things that you don't understand (see the article about firing every OK Supreme Court judge other than Opala).  In this case, you raised a point about 10,000 seat games that are not the norm.  I think Lamson is well aware of the risks and benefits of what he's doing.

I will aplogize for that being a bit over the top.  But I've also seen so much nonsense put forth on the stadium (and other subjects) on here that it sends me into orbit when I see broad assumptions used to justify policy choices.

What policy choice was I trying to justify? And am I a bad person for suggesting that overflow seating could be useful once in a while?  

I think you and I are in agreement that revenue is what matters and that giving away seats is a way to boost concession revenues. Re-read the last sentence of my last post.

By definition, this forum is a bunch of guys opining about matters on which we are not experts, talking about issues about which we have only partial information. I can't speak for anyone else, but I try to back up my opinions with the facts that I have at my disposal and acknowledge the limits of what I know. You seem to be saying that if we aren't Chuck Lamson, we shouldn't be commenting on the baseball business aspects of the park at all.

[Gold]

quote:Originally posted by RecycleMichael

The Drillers have seven games left this season. I am going to at least two of them.

Anyone else on this thread going to the games this week? I hope so, especially with so many experts on how the minor league baseball business works.

Free tickets for tonight's game and tomorrow nights game at all area sponsors. Tomorrow is Myron Noodleman, Thursday is 2 for 1 cheeseburgers and margarita coolers, Friday is mustache night and Saturday is fireworks. Kids eat free on Sunday and Monday the Drillers actually give their jerseys to lucky fans.

I'm going tonight.  My buddy owes me some beer.

[Renaissance]

quote:Originally posted by RecycleMichael

The Drillers have seven games left this season. I am going to at least two of them.

Anyone else on this thread going to the games this week? I hope so, especially with so many experts on how the minor league baseball business works.

Free tickets for tonight's game and tomorrow nights game at all area sponsors. Tomorrow is Myron Noodleman, Thursday is 2 for 1 cheeseburgers and margarita coolers, Friday is mustache night and Saturday is fireworks. Kids eat free on Sunday and Monday the Drillers actually give their jerseys to lucky fans.

I'll be in town and may be there Saturday.

[Gold]

quote:Originally posted by MichaelBates

quote:Originally posted by Gold

It's the same argument that Friendly Bear makes over and over again (I'll admit that I see it and my need to bash fools on the internet kicks in).  Revenue is the factor.  A lot of nights (like tonight and tomorrow night) the Drillers hand out free tickets around town.  They make their money off selling beer and hot dogs, not cheap (or free) seats.

I realize you say you are in favor of the stadium, but you also have a history of talking about things that you don't understand (see the article about firing every OK Supreme Court judge other than Opala).  In this case, you raised a point about 10,000 seat games that are not the norm.  I think Lamson is well aware of the risks and benefits of what he's doing.

I will aplogize for that being a bit over the top.  But I've also seen so much nonsense put forth on the stadium (and other subjects) on here that it sends me into orbit when I see broad assumptions used to justify policy choices.

What policy choice was I trying to justify? And am I a bad person for suggesting that overflow seating could be useful once in a while?  

I think you and I are in agreement that revenue is what matters and that giving away seats is a way to boost concession revenues. Re-read the last sentence of my last post.

By definition, this forum is a bunch of guys opining about matters on which we are not experts, talking about issues about which we have only partial information. I can't speak for anyone else, but I try to back up my opinions with the facts that I have at my disposal and acknowledge the limits of what I know. You seem to be saying that if we aren't Chuck Lamson, we shouldn't be commenting on the baseball business aspects of the park at all.

I didn't say you were trying to justify any policy choice in this thread -- it was an observation about things I've noticed recently on here.  It was relevant to my point that a lot of people have identified problems for the stadium plan without real knowledge.  See Friendly Bear's silly tirade about Lamson not wanting to compete with beer sales downtown.  In this case, you brought up a point about seating that doesn't make much sense to discuss unless you think it is a possible flaw in the stadium proposal, i.e., not enough seats to get to 300,000.

No doubt this forum, and all message boards in general, allow for people to express their $1.05; some folks will always know more than others, and, if the board is popular, you'll get disagreement and some completely off base remarks.  My point was that lately it seems like a lot of the conversation involves one person making a proposition not supported by fact, then another person making a counter-proposition also not supported by fact; if push came to shove and you asked what supports their argument, neither side has a thing (see the homeless shelter thread as Exhibit A).  

My point is that it would make more sense to identify those fact propositions as questions rather than claim some sort of knowledge of a policy factor.  For example, it would be good if we had more knowledge as to why the downtown Y is getting out of the housing business -- instead we get this long conversation about property values and the risks associated with the homeless without any support for fact.

Yes, you can't easily link or support every fact in a forum like this, but when you're talking public policy, and when you want to do your best to have a sincere discussion on that end, it would help to support SOME of the arguments with facts.

In the example above, you bring an issue with the seating arrangement that Lamson is clearly well aware of.  I don't know how you have an intelligent converation about that without deferring to his obviously more well-informed position, other than to ask something like "How is Lamson going to make a profit if there are less seats available?"

And when you ask that question, I think you get to some potentially more interesting discussion points: increased ticket costs (and whether that's a good or workable possibility), increased revenue from concessions (and the possible restaraunt in the stadium), and so on.  But it makes more sense to me to ask the question than to assume a fact.

[RecycleMichael]

Tonight's Driller starting pitcher is interesting. Chaz Roe is young (21), 6'5" and throws hard. He was a first round pick in the 2005 draft.

His last two starts were wins where he gave up four hits and only one run.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by RecycleMichael

Tonight's Driller starting pitcher is interesting. Chaz Roe is young (21), 6'5" and throws hard. He was a first round pick in the 2005 draft.

His last two starts were wins where he gave up four hits and only one run.

Quantify hard. I throw hard. My hard is 48mph. Let me ask this question...How are the Drillers going to win if he just throws hard?[]

[RecycleMichael]

"Hitting is timing. Pitching is destroying timing."

Ron Perranowski

Perranowski pitched in three World Series for the Dodgers, then became their pitching coach and took them to four more.

[MDepr2007]

Hmmm.... I would have thought many from here would go to the presentation to make gay bashing a hate crime... oh well

They will not make the downtown stadium big because it will compete with the BOK if it is.Outdoor concerts are a hit and a big ball park would hurt BOK revenues.
You can argue thatg most ball teams are building smaller parks but Tulsa wants activities other than just ball games going on. If that is the case then it should be built to hold more and shouldn't cost much more just to add seats.
Then again "what ballpark"

[USRufnex]

Waterboy--  "Honestly. If its soccer moms forget it. Soccer folks don't do baseball."

Rico-- "Six million tourist a year is not soccer..."

Waterboy-- "But baseball is a blue collar, grey collar sport. Soccer fits the wealthy Jenks demographic. What, you think baseball is king in Jenks? Football is king in Jenks but its an everyman sport despite the appearance of its fan base."

Waterboy-- "Drillers aren't going to bring them more than 85,000 a year (I forget, 16 games at 5000 per game?) unless they seriously make the stadium multi use. Fireworks or no."

------------------------------------------------

What's up with all this, Waterboy?..... you channelling Average Joe these days???  And Rico, unless you're talking about pie-in-the-sky prospects for a Major League Baseball team in Jenks, 6 million tourists a year is not baseball either...

Can either of you argue for the advantages in a downtown location for the Drillers without resorting to soccer mom stereotypes and urban/suburban mythology???

Most of the soccer folks I've met here in Tulsa... happen to also like baseball... and football... and basketball... and NASCAR.  The consensus among the soccer people I've met is that they don't understand why a new ballpark is needed when Driller Park works just fine.    Baseball may have been a "blue-collar sport" decades ago, but the fan demographics I've seen in full force at Chicago Cubs games at Wrigley over the past decade or so... have been decidedly white-collar and suburban...

Maybe you guys can come out with me to the Four Aces Tavern off 41st & Garnett and meet a few "soccer dads"... who also happen to like riding Harleys....

WELCOME TO THE 21ST CENTURY!

I won't be going to any of the final Drillers' home games this summer, but I would likely go to a game or two every year at a new stadium, whether that stadium opens on Archer & Elgin or in Jenks.  

I'd be one of many Tulsans who would be casual fans.... I wouldn't care if the Drillers were 2 1/2 games outta first, or mathematically eliminated from the Texas League playoffs.... just wanna have a few beers and sit on the grass berm... hopefully looking at the downtown skyline... last year, wanted to sit over off right-field at Driller Park but some old geezer told me I couldn't sit that far away from the first baseline... tried to buy a ticket, but was presented with a Reasors' coupon for a freebie.... and trust me, I am not part of the "wealthy Jenks demographic."  I also wouldn't characterize D-Fest fans or McNellie's or Caz's patrons or the folks who flock to the stuff on Cherry Street as "blue-collar, grey-collar" baseball fans either---  [:O]

"16 games at 5000 per game" doesn't describe the Drillers... but it does describe USL-1, a pro soccer league one level under Major League Soccer that would like to see a team in Tulsa revived under the Roughnecks name.  How do I know this?... well, a little birdie from USL-1 cold-called me last May.... []

5.06.2008
USL Open to Resusitating Tulsa NASL Franchise
http://theoffsiderules.blogspot.com/2008/05/usl-open-to-resusitating-tulsa-nasl.html

http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9963

[waterboy]

I was surmising based on comments previously made. I wasn't doing my thesis in baseball vs soccer demographics. Like others noted, and I alluded, I was guessing on figures for attendance but attendance wasn't the real issue.

As far as the schism between baseball, soccer and football, it is quite real. At least up through high school. I coached baseball for 7 years up to middle school. Coached soccer for one season. Soccer coaches would never accept any hardship excuses from kids that wanted to play other sports, particularly baseball. In fact most of the soccer coaches didn't want them on their team. Committ to soccer, sit on the bench or take a hike. In baseball, we were glad to get a body on the bench. Some of my best players were eventually given the ultimatum and chose soccer.

Football didn't make that distinction but worked the kids so hard that few attempted a second sport. Of course there were great athletes that were excepted but in my experience very few.

Once you grow up by realizing you won't coach in the majors or play in anything but recreational sports and simply enjoy the games for what they are, you can sit on a berm in right field, drink a chablis and soak up the moment. However, a lot of parents of players never give up their identification with a sport and remain jerks about it their whole lives.

Didn't mean to offend. I still don't much care where they locate (I'll visit either location occasionally and migrate to a berm) but I still believe economically, and even demographically, downtown is a better fit. Apparently they do too.

[Rico]

quote:Originally posted by USRufnex

Waterboy--  "Honestly. If its soccer moms forget it. Soccer folks don't do baseball."

Rico-- "Six million tourist a year is not soccer..."

Waterboy-- "But baseball is a blue collar, grey collar sport. Soccer fits the wealthy Jenks demographic. What, you think baseball is king in Jenks? Football is king in Jenks but its an everyman sport despite the appearance of its fan base."

Waterboy-- "Drillers aren't going to bring them more than 85,000 a year (I forget, 16 games at 5000 per game?) unless they seriously make the stadium multi use. Fireworks or no."

------------------------------------------------

What's up with all this, Waterboy?..... you channelling Average Joe these days???  And Rico, unless you're talking about pie-in-the-sky prospects for a Major League Baseball team in Jenks, 6 million tourists a year is not baseball either...

Can either of you argue for the advantages in a downtown location for the Drillers without resorting to soccer mom stereotypes and urban/suburban mythology???

Most of the soccer folks I've met here in Tulsa... happen to also like baseball... and football... and basketball... and NASCAR.  The consensus among the soccer people I've met is that they don't understand why a new ballpark is needed when Driller Park works just fine.    Baseball may have been a "blue-collar sport" decades ago, but the fan demographics I've seen in full force at Chicago Cubs games at Wrigley over the past decade or so... have been decidedly white-collar and suburban...

Maybe you guys can come out with me to the Four Aces Tavern off 41st & Garnett and meet a few "soccer dads"... who also happen to like riding Harleys....

WELCOME TO THE 21ST CENTURY!

I won't be going to any of the final Drillers' home games this summer, but I would likely go to a game or two every year at a new stadium, whether that stadium opens on Archer & Elgin or in Jenks.  

I'd be one of many Tulsans who would be casual fans.... I wouldn't care if the Drillers were 2 1/2 games outta first, or mathematically eliminated from the Texas League playoffs.... just wanna have a few beers and sit on the grass berm... hopefully looking at the downtown skyline... last year, wanted to sit over off right-field at Driller Park but some old geezer told me I couldn't sit that far away from the first baseline... tried to buy a ticket, but was presented with a Reasors' coupon for a freebie.... and trust me, I am not part of the "wealthy Jenks demographic."  I also wouldn't characterize D-Fest fans or McNellie's or Caz's patrons or the folks who flock to the stuff on Cherry Street as "blue-collar, grey-collar" baseball fans either---  [:O]

"16 games at 5000 per game" doesn't describe the Drillers... but it does describe USL-1, a pro soccer league one level under Major League Soccer that would like to see a team in Tulsa revived under the Roughnecks name.  How do I know this?... well, a little birdie from USL-1 cold-called me last May.... []

5.06.2008
USL Open to Resusitating Tulsa NASL Franchise
http://theoffsiderules.blogspot.com/2008/05/usl-open-to-resusitating-tulsa-nasl.html

http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9963

First of all Ruf I am glad you are feeling well enough to be your usual agreeable self.[}:)]

My comment regarding 6 million tourist a year came from a projection made as to the potential the Jenks Development, in it's entirety , has... Not just the sports end of it.

That much exposure for a team whether it be soccer or baseball is enormous.It ain't peanuts.

I don't think Downtown Tulsa can offer that kind of a magnet to the Drillers. The people that visit Jenks in the future will be staying the day... or, at least, that is the impression I get with the "Aquarium" the 25 million dollar Bellagio fountain, the Hotel, fine dining, etc.


On the other hand I would like to see the Drillers locate Downtown.. I think it would be an enormous step towards taking DT forward into economic prosperity. Baseball would seem more "at home" in a DT setting IMHO..

The price that goes with the DT location seems to be going up daily.

If having "America's Favorite Pastime" locate within the IDL means sacrificing what appears to be on the table... I will not be a cheerleader for folks like that.
You might get the Drillers... But you may get drilled on the price that goes with it.

Bring on soccer... Bring on baseball...
But don't ask me to choose sacrificing DT for either.

Homey do not play like that.

Se you around Ruf.

[USRufnex]

Rico,

So, how would you have reacted if Mayor LaFortune had announced that he and his wife were gonna have 2 of the 12 seats on a sports authority for the ballpark?.... like a certain Ms. Taylor and Mr. Loebeck?

And which would be a better deal for downtown Tulsa?... a TIF district used to build the stadium or this deal... ?

Inquiring minds want to know.

***Major League Soccer would never agree to playing second fiddle to a AA-baseball club or  sharing facilities with said club... USL-1, on the other hand... would love to play 16 dates at the new ballpark, or take over old Driller Stadium, or move to Jenks and share with... ?  They ain't that picky...

[Rico]

quote:Originally posted by USRufnex

Rico,

So, how would you have reacted if Mayor LaFortune had announced that he and his wife were gonna have 2 of the 12 seats on a sports authority for the ballpark?.... like a certain Ms. Taylor and Mr. Loebeck?

And which would be a better deal for downtown Tulsa?... a TIF district used to build the stadium or this deal... ?

Inquiring minds want to know.

***Major League Soccer would never agree to playing second fiddle to a AA-baseball club or  sharing facilities with said club... USL-1, on the other hand... would love to play 16 dates at the new ballpark, or take over old Driller Stadium, or move to Jenks and share with... ?  They ain't that picky...

My opinion.... You asked for it.

"Tubby" LaFortuna did not have the brainpower for a scam at this level.. Maybe Clay but not the big man.

Bill would have been trying to loan Sean Gray money for the "American".

The rest of your question....

It's not a Mayoral election year, but.

If it were....

Well let's just say I hope we have some choices.

Unlike an article explaining a vote for LaFortune... "The Devil I know" is not a good reason to elect anyone.

[USRufnex]

I think the talk of LaFortune's incompetence is a load of crap.... my opinion.  LaFortune did for Tulsa what Ron Norick did for OKC... also my opinion.

The biggest incompetence IMHO came from Republican bloggers who stabbed him in the back...

Taylor just lost this dem's vote... what collosal arrogance and conflict of interest.