$451M Streets plan on Nov. 4th General Ballot

[carltonplace]

Sales tax rates remain the same, new 3rd penney funds would be would be focused only on these projects once the current projects completes, and the city would take over our portion of 4 to fix once that expires.

[EricP]

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear[/i
Does the Publik Werkes Direktor Chas. Hardt get fired/retired as part of this street tax initiative?

After all, he was in charge when the decision was made back in Mayor Susan Savage's reign to quit maintaining the streets through regular crack filling, patching and re-paving.

Instead, the city adopted the Re-Build concept for street repairs, using the Third Penny Sales Tax instead of city operating budget money.

We since learned the hardt way if you quit maintaining the streets, they deteriorate faster than they can be re-built.

Hardt needs to be replaced by a competent Civil Engineer knowledgeable about street repair/maintenance.

Hardt needs a gold watch, a handshake, and there's the door Good-bye.

Hey, I think you said something that I agree with for once... I notice how most of Broken Arrow's streets are regularly patched and have the cracks sealed with tar (or whatever) and some of them have been around a LONG time. They Seal Aspen up and down every few years and it sure seems to do the trick.

When Tulsa paves over failing concrete streets, the cracks between slabs just come back with a vengance later... and it seems they did that with just about every damn street in Tulsa. Why did they abandon proper maintenance of the concrete for a quick, thin piece of crap asphault layer?

[YoungTulsan]

Those damn neighborhood maps split up randomly in a PDF weren't cutting it for me, I wanted to visualize the whole plan, so I put together an entire map with everything on it

My copy is actually 4 times the size (2967x4002), what I posted above is shrunk down.

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by YoungTulsan

Those damn neighborhood maps split up randomly in a PDF weren't cutting it for me, I wanted to visualize the whole plan, so I put together an entire map with everything on it

My copy is actually 4 times the size (2967x4002), what I posted above is shrunk down.

Thanks for doing that map. Definitely helps you see what all is in this plan.

[Rico]

Tonights Council will have one Deja Vu item....http://www.cityoftulsa.org/agendas/agendax.asp?FN=000A27A9&num=1

[YoungTulsan]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

quote:Originally posted by YoungTulsan

Those damn neighborhood maps split up randomly in a PDF weren't cutting it for me, I wanted to visualize the whole plan, so I put together an entire map with everything on it

My copy is actually 4 times the size (2967x4002), what I posted above is shrunk down.

Thanks for doing that map. Definitely helps you see what all is in this plan.

Yeah, I really think it is a pretty good plan, spread out across all parts of the city.  A decent amount of thought was put into fixing some of the worst streets in town.

I'm not sure, since it isn't specified, if some of these arterial street projects are for widening, replacement, resurfacing, or what.  Some of them look like they should be widenings, but I thought the widenings were scrapped for the $450M vs. the $2B plan.

[OUGrad05]

I'm not quite sure how I feel about this.  I feel the city is very mismanaged, and asking for more money from the people is absurd.  But at the sametime if the city isn't given a chance to right the ship it will never happen.  But I also feel that 400 million dollars isn't nearly enough to fix the problems with the roads but if its handled properly in three or four years perhaps the rest get fixed

[nathanm]

quote:Originally posted by OUGrad05

in three or four years perhaps the rest get fixed

Unlikely. The usual suspects will be out in force whining about how we "just" gave the city $450 million to fix the streets and they're back at the trough asking for more.

Not that there isn't room for personnel improvement in certain city departments, but people around here have such a poor image of any government body asking for any sort of money (basically a bunch of anti-tax nuts it seems) it seems nearly impossible to get anything done that requires lots of money.

I can't for the life of me figure out how Vision 2025 passed. (that was before I moved here)

And FWIW, milling and overlaying asphalt is a widely accepted way of fixing concrete roads. The problem is that it requires a stable base and more importantly, another mill and overlay every 3-5 years. In this town, regular maintenance of that sort seems unlikely.

[Wrinkle]

I have some major issues with the Mayor's plan.
I'll have to delineate them later, but it's too large and uses Ad Valorem unnecessarily.

The good part is the Ad Valorem tax will require a seperate ballot item which can be turned down and still retain the Sales Tax portion.

That would be a pretty good compromise.

I will suggest our Public Works Department is ill-prepaired to spend $90 million per year for each of the next five years on anything.

And, new leadership there is a good idea, too.
I'd support a Gold Watch Party.

I do want to know how much actual PAVING this plan is supposed to provide. Well over half of the total is planned for neighborhood streets, a plan already well in progress as 3rd Penny funding is staged. So, that is nothing new.

We also need to check the status of both the 2001 and 2006 3rd Penny Projects. Many of those have yet to begin. So, how are they going to do those and the new stuff at the same time?

[inteller]

oh WOW!  they are going to actually do something about south Riverside to 121st!  I'm voting for this for sure!

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by Wrinkle

I have some major issues with the Mayor's plan.
I'll have to delineate them later, but it's too large and uses Ad Valorem unnecessarily.

The good part is the Ad Valorem tax will require a seperate ballot item which can be turned down and still retain the Sales Tax portion.

That would be a pretty good compromise.

I will suggest our Public Works Department is ill-prepaired to spend $90 million per year for each of the next five years on anything.

And, new leadership there is a good idea, too.
I'd support a Gold Watch Party.

I do want to know how much actual PAVING this plan is supposed to provide. Well over half of the total is planned for neighborhood streets, a plan already well in progress as 3rd Penny funding is staged. So, that is nothing new.

We also need to check the status of both the 2001 and 2006 3rd Penny Projects. Many of those have yet to begin. So, how are they going to do those and the new stuff at the same time?

I'd like to hear what you've got to say about it.  I'm just excited we might finally do something about our streets.  I also hope that we bother to contract out to someone other than the usual suspects.  Did we just hand Becco the keys to all our old equipment?  They suck.

Hardt is definitely past his shelf life, I'd chip in to get him real gold if it'd make him go away.

[TheTed]

I'm really torn on this. With any kind of nod to improving transit I would've been on board.

But it's really, really difficult for me to get behind a plan that just assures we'll continue to fall farther behind other cities when it comes to non-car alternatives.

[OUGrad05]

quote:Originally posted by TheTed

I'm really torn on this. With any kind of nod to improving transit I would've been on board.

But it's really, really difficult for me to get behind a plan that just assures we'll continue to fall farther behind other cities when it comes to non-car alternatives.

Can you name another city of tulsa's size and spread that has light rail and other forms of mass transit?  

BTW it needs to be in the US, NOT europe.

[Gaspar]

quote:Originally posted by OUGrad05

quote:Originally posted by TheTed

I'm really torn on this. With any kind of nod to improving transit I would've been on board.

But it's really, really difficult for me to get behind a plan that just assures we'll continue to fall farther behind other cities when it comes to non-car alternatives.

Can you name another city of tulsa's size and spread that has light rail and other forms of mass transit?  

BTW it needs to be in the US, NOT europe.

Silver Dollar City!  I've ridden the light-rail there several times.  Why can't we just take the train at the zoo and expand the tracks all the way down to 91st street South?

[Chicken Little]

quote:Originally posted by Wrinkle

I have some major issues with the Mayor's plan.

Why are we not surprised?

quote:I'll have to delineate them later, but it's too large and uses Ad Valorem unnecessarily.

Too large, huh?  Our streets will be in about the same condition that they are now, if not worse, when this thing is done.  So, are you saying that maintaining the streets is just not worth it?