The Collective (11th and Harvard Coffee/cafe/bar)

[Gold]

Just read a MySpace bulletin from The Collective indicating that they are closed indefinitely as of today. Serious bummer. I really liked their food.

From the Tulsa World blogs . . . http://www.tulsaworld.com/webextra/blogs/weblog.aspx?column_id=29#4731

I liked what they were trying to do and I feel for them.  That said, I went there on a Friday night once and the band playing ran us off.  I'm all about experimental music, but this group was just noise. 

The bar was usually pretty slow, if there was anyone working it.

The creativity of the menu item names sort of subsumed their substance.  You can name a couple of things after places in Tulsa, but after awhile, it gets hard to tell the difference between what's on the Golden Driller vs. the Center of the Universe.  Call a turkey sandwich a turkey sandwich.  When I ate there, I spent some time scratching my head about the menu.

The folks running it are very nice people and that was the right idea.  I have no doubt the rent was a big issue.  To make that rent, you probably need high volume.  But that location may preclude high volume (it's not that big and the bar is hard to get to if its busy) and quality.  I think whoever owns the building needs a reality check.

[Nik]

Wow, what a disappointment. The wife and I were just saying we needed to go back there. I'm surprised nothing can survive there being so close to campus.

edit: now I'm reading the comments about the rent and its making a bit more sense.

[Conan71]

Saddened, but not shocked.  They brought back to the neighborhood an element that was lost when Saffron's closed.  I was in there a couple of weeks ago, Coleen said their rent was $4500 a month, that's robbery for that space.  I hate to see them go, but there's no way they were doing enough volume to sustain that.  It seems it should have been a slam dunk so close to campus, but I'm frequently wrong about the spending habits of TU students in the immediate neighborhood.

[TURobY]

It seems it should have been a slam dunk so close to campus, but I'm frequently wrong about the spending habits of TU students in the immediate neighborhood.

I have said this time and time again... TU does not need any more bar/cafe/coffee places. The students are already being serviced by multiple on-campus locations, brookside, cherry street, and Utica Square. Many of the students already have their favorite places (Shades of Brown, Starbucks, etc.). The same applies to bar/pubs, as many students already have their favorite locations downtown, cherry street, and so forth.

I have a theory that if someone were to open something there in the entertainment services arena, it would need to be able to survive at least 4 years to let the established students cycle out of the system and allow new students to become comfortable with the place as an alternative hang out.

Some sort of retail might do well in that spot, or a even non-competing entertainment business. But right now, the students are already being pulled in too many other directions...

It certainly stinks that it is closing, and I definately wish the best of luck to the previous owners.

[joiei]

That's too bad.  It is always sad to see a local place that is really trying not make it when the lines are out the door for the chains down on 71st. 

[TheArtist]

I have said this time and time again... TU does not need any more bar/cafe/coffee places. The students are already being serviced by multiple on-campus locations, brookside, cherry street, and Utica Square. Many of the students already have their favorite places (Shades of Brown, Starbucks, etc.). The same applies to bar/pubs, as many students already have their favorite locations downtown, cherry street, and so forth.

I have a theory that if someone were to open something there in the entertainment services arena, it would need to be able to survive at least 4 years to let the established students cycle out of the system and allow new students to become comfortable with the place as an alternative hang out.

Some sort of retail might do well in that spot, or a even non-competing entertainment business. But right now, the students are already being pulled in too many other directions...

It certainly stinks that it is closing, and I definately wish the best of luck to the previous owners.

While I am glad the TU students are supporting those other areas... it seems kind of, unusual for a college to not have a pedestrian friendly strip of shops, restaurants, coffee shops, etc. within walking distance. The stuff on campus doesnt count. So laaame and no character.

If I had the money I would strip out all that stuff across from TU on 11th and replace it with 3 and 4 story buildings all done in an old world, collegiate, gothic style. Wide sidewalk with a stone loggia on the shops, balconies on the second floor. Big trees and gas lamp posts lining the street. Cool funky coffee shop, sidewalk cafe, shops, bookstore, gift store, sports bar/pub, etc. on the first floor and living above. A great place thats comfortable and inviting, thats right there for the students and neighborhood to enjoy... not a friggin Arbys lol. Unless they were IN one of those buildings.   

But perhaps TU is to small and the students wouldnt like anything like that? Doesnt sound like they would support something nearby?

[TheArtist]

Saddened, but not shocked.  They brought back to the neighborhood an element that was lost when Saffron's closed.  I was in there a couple of weeks ago, Coleen said their rent was $4500 a month, that's robbery for that space.  I hate to see them go, but there's no way they were doing enough volume to sustain that.  It seems it should have been a slam dunk so close to campus, but I'm frequently wrong about the spending habits of TU students in the immediate neighborhood.

That is high for that space and area at this time. But you run into that a lot in Tulsa, Downtown the Pearl District etc. The owners would rather the buildings sit empty and fall apart than ask reasonable rents that little start up businesses can afford.

[orion]

I know of the landlord who has the property..I am being polite when I say he is jerk...so sorry to hear about another local place going down..for the neighborhood it is like death in the family..I think whatever goes in that location has to be built for the neighborhood with TU as only an added benefit..I personally love 11th street as it's honest and not full of itself as Peoria and Cherry St can be..Although we have lost a friend in The Collective..we still have our places what with Tally's, Ella's, Dena's and Rancho Grande holding down the fort on 11th

[SXSW]

While I am glad the TU students are supporting those other areas... it seems kind of, unusual for a college to not have a pedestrian friendly strip of shops, restaurants, coffee shops, etc. within walking distance. The stuff on campus doesnt count. So laaame and no character.

If I had the money I would strip out all that stuff across from TU on 11th and replace it with 3 and 4 story buildings all done in an old world, collegiate, gothic style. Wide sidewalk with a stone loggia on the shops, balconies on the second floor. Big trees and gas lamp posts lining the street. Cool funky coffee shop, sidewalk cafe, shops, bookstore, gift store, sports bar/pub, etc. on the first floor and living above. A great place thats comfortable and inviting, thats right there for the students and neighborhood to enjoy... not a friggin Arbys lol. Unless they were IN one of those buildings.   

But perhaps TU is to small and the students wouldnt like anything like that? Doesnt sound like they would support something nearby?

I've always said the same thing, seems like there should be a streetfront retail area along 11th across from TU between Delaware and Harvard.  Anyone know what used to be there before QT, Arby's, Taco Bell, etc. all reared their ugly heads?  To do any kind of mixed-use in that area you would have to include lofts or office space above the retail, but being so close to TU I think that could work.  I think a hotel, with street level retail space and parallel parking on 11th, would do well at the south end of TU's new oval, sort of a 'bookend' to Collings Hall in the same style and possibly run by TU.  Any redevelopment of that streetscape would certainly help TU improve its image; it can't be too appealing for future students to see a slew of fast food joints right across from campus, especially in an otherwise fairly walkable part of Tulsa.

[Renaissance]

While I am glad the TU students are supporting those other areas... it seems kind of, unusual for a college to not have a pedestrian friendly strip of shops, restaurants, coffee shops, etc. within walking distance. The stuff on campus doesnt count. So laaame and no character.

If I had the money I would strip out all that stuff across from TU on 11th and replace it with 3 and 4 story buildings all done in an old world, collegiate, gothic style. Wide sidewalk with a stone loggia on the shops, balconies on the second floor. Big trees and gas lamp posts lining the street. Cool funky coffee shop, sidewalk cafe, shops, bookstore, gift store, sports bar/pub, etc. on the first floor and living above. A great place thats comfortable and inviting, thats right there for the students and neighborhood to enjoy... not a friggin Arbys lol. Unless they were IN one of those buildings.   

But perhaps TU is to small and the students wouldnt like anything like that? Doesnt sound like they would support something nearby?

TU itself had the money, and they ripped out a bunch of stuff and put in . . . suburban style apartments fronting 11th.

[TURobY]

But perhaps TU is to small and the students wouldnt like anything like that? Doesnt sound like they would support something nearby?

They'll support stuff nearby when they don't already have their favorite places cemented in their minds. That is why I said that if another food/beverage entertainment goes into the area, they'll need to have about 4 years' worth of patience for the current students to cycle through.

However, it is important to note that TU has a limited student base with (to my knowledge) no immediate intention to increase enrollment rates, so if you keep students in the TU area, you are drawing them away from other areas in the city. This has two negative consequences: businesses in other "trendy" parts of town will suffer, and students won't get a chance to discover the rest of Tulsa because they'll be confined to the TU neighborhood.

I'm not saying that there shouldn't be an effort to make the area more urban. But I am cautioning you that you can't build up the TU area without considering how it will affect the other neighborhoods. If we want to maintain the charm of Cherry Street and Brookside AND build up the TU area, we need more young profeesionals or a more active neighborhood surrounding the developments.

[waterboy]

I've always said the same thing, seems like there should be a streetfront retail area along 11th across from TU between Delaware and Harvard.  Anyone know what used to be there before QT, Arby's, Taco Bell, etc. all reared their ugly heads?  To do any kind of mixed-use in that area you would have to include lofts or office space above the retail, but being so close to TU I think that could work.  I think a hotel, with street level retail space and parallel parking on 11th, would do well at the south end of TU's new oval, sort of a 'bookend' to Collings Hall in the same style and possibly run by TU.  Any redevelopment of that streetscape would certainly help TU improve its image; it can't be too appealing for future students to see a slew of fast food joints right across from campus, especially in an otherwise fairly walkable part of Tulsa.

I remember some of it as being interesting- The Library, the old Hideaway Pizza (the one Ken of Ken's Pizza worked in) a ConeyIsland,  Buccaneer Bar and some joints and sandwich shops that came and went. Lots of Central and Rogers High School kids frequented 11th street. Probably as many as TU students. However, it has always been home to fast food including McDonalds, Sandy's, Arby's and Roy Rogers.

[MichaelBates]

Metro Diner was an Arby's back in the late '70s. Before that it was a gas station. The Quik Trip location was home to a Sandy's, a tartan-themed fast-food chain that later became part of Hardee's. (Sandy's is not in the '57 Polk Directory, but the distinctive building shape is on the 1962 Sanborn map.) That stretch of 11th has been auto-oriented for as long as I can remember.

From the 1957 Polk Directory, north side of the street from Delaware to Harvard. I've not bothered to type in the names of all the used car lots:

2801 used cars
2805 used cars
2813 House of Gifts antiques
2815 residence
2817 Truog Luzia M chiropractor
2821 residence
2823 Campbell Radio & TV service
2827 E L Mendenhall Co contractors
2831 residence
2835 residence
2839 Don's Chili Bowl
2901 used cars
2907 Elbow Room beer
2911 vacant
2913 Walter's Dairy Store
3001 Finn Serv Sta
3201 Parrish & Clark used cars (they had a downtown new car dealership)
3217 used cars
3229 used cars
(according to Sanborn map, street-fronting retail from here to Harvard)
3241 Sun Bearing Supply auto parts & repair
3245 University Barber Shop
3247 Kit-Kat Club beer
3249 Catron Pharmacy

South side:

2802 Vacant
2814 Brownie's Root Beer (the one at 2130 S. Harvard was in this directory, too)
2826 Troy's Barbecue
2828 Vacant
2902 Stepp Serv Sta
2910 used cars [actually says "Fulton Car Mkt used cats"]
2924 used cars
3002 Eleventh St Mkt groceries
3006 Shug's Diner
3016 used cars
3020 York Realty Co; York Insurance
3024 Hago Sales Co household appliances
3102 used cars
3104 Vic's Lawn Mower & Bicycle Shop (street-fronting retail)
3106 Stadium Lounge beer (street-fronting retail with apartments above)
3108 1/2 Apartments (four units)
3120 used cars
3138 Deaton W E Serv Sta
3144 used cars
3148 Harvard Janitor Supplies (The Collective's building)
3202 used cars
3204 used cars
3224 used cars
3232 used cars
(according to Sanborn map, street-fronting retail from here to Harvard)
3238 Midwest Whol Co electrical supplies
3242 vacant
3244 Harvard Drugs Store
3248 vacant

TU's approach to campus design is suburban, auto oriented, and hostile to neighboring homes and retail. It's as if TU wants students to stay put on campus, rather than support nearby businesses.

It would be interesting to know if The Collective's building is owned free or clear or is mortgaged. Either way, you'd think some rent coming in would be better than no rent at all.

[TURobY]

TU's approach to campus design is suburban, auto oriented, and hostile to neighboring homes and retail. It's as if TU wants students to stay put on campus, rather than support nearby businesses.

TU's approach to campus design is based upon the fact that student property and lives were being threatened from the neighborhoods to the west and north-west. I lived on campus before the gates were put up and there was a vehicle break-in nearly every day, and the students and parents complained. So, TU put up the fences and so far break-ins have decreased significantly. I can't say I'm wild about the fences but they are serving the students' interests.

As for auto-oriented, I would disagree. The parking lots have been slowly removed and been replaced by shuttle bus service. It is much easier to walk on campus than to drive due to the lack of parking. That's a huge change from when I was a freshman and everyone drove to class, even if it was in the next building over.

[Gold]

TU's approach to campus design is suburban, auto oriented, and hostile to neighboring homes and retail. It's as if TU wants students to stay put on campus, rather than support nearby businesses.

Roby hit this out of the park, but it needs more comments.  Having followed your work, I know you like to take your shots at TU.  I'll never forget the time your column lamented the removal of a head shop; great unintentional humor there.

TU's approach is HARDLY auto friendly.  As an alum, I feel I have some knowledge here.  TU does the best they can with a pretty small piece of real estate for the number of employees and students who live off campus.  The school has done a serious revision of the parking policy and added a shuttle to transport students.  While I was a student, parking became a bigger issue every year, finally reaching the point of people getting really nasty about it my last year and the school having to organize a bunch of town hall type meetings, which had a lot to do with the current system.  I remember parking not being that big of an issue when I first started, back when the first set of apartments were going up.  The campus has really changed.

The most frequent complaint I hear about the athletics program is that there isn't enough parking.  Now, I feel a lot of that is the Okie attitude to parking (if I can't park next to it, I'm not going), but I also know enough that if you're not a student living on campus or a donor of more than about $200 a year, you're going to walk.

Most people would say there isn't enough parking and that, as a result, the campus has become much more pedestrian.

I'm not sure what TU has done to be hostile to neighboring homes and businesses, other than buy up the neighborhood.  That's not in itself hostile.  If anything, the majority of businesses across 11th benefit substantially from the campus and the nearby homes have higher property values (generally, it's a great investment to buy near a university).  To wit, the neighboring Kendall Whittier neighborhood, notably the school, needs TU's contribution to survive and grow; TU has donated countless service hours, resources, and staff in that school in order to improve the neighborhood.

I'll eagerly await your remarks, especially when you bring up Starship and another potential rant about Kelo.  I'll remind you now, that was a head shop that contributed little of value to the neighborhood.  And I'll enjoy the religious conservative's delicate handling of the issue and the related unintentional humor.  Popcorn is cooking right now.