American Airlines status

[Dana431]

But they tax the hell out of you to compensate.  I know, I lived there long enough.  Property taxes will kick your donkey there.

Car tags aren't fun there either.

[Townsend]

I saw that last night on the news. And point still being. They are relocating your high paying job to Ft Worth, Texas. It's not like they are sending you to Flea Speck, Mississippi. The status could be laid off and tough luck. Is living in Tulsa really worth picketing outside the BOK ? Truth be known. The cost of living in Texas is probably higher so they might just get a raise. And get this. No sales Tax......Bam ! Brush up on the Texican and buy a Cowboys shirt, all is good.

I was posting from an outsider's POV.  I'd like jobs to stay in my town.

[godboko71]

Everywhere I have shopped in Texas has sales tax besides on food. As for cost of living yes its higher in Texas then in Tulsa or OKC, but outside of the metros and you start to get on even ground.

[Ed W]

Hasn't AA added a couple hundred employees at the Tulsa base in the last year or so in a different division?  It sucks for the city that 200+ good jobs are leaving but it's really a wash with the other jobs added, or maybe still a positive for the city (just not a huge positive as it would be if the MOC jobs remained).

I think it's a wash.  While AA may have added XXX jobs, they've also seen YYY retirements.  Until the new seniority list comes out, we won't know how many union jobs were impacted.

As for the MOC, the majority of those jobs are management rather than union.

With the retirements of 240 pilots in the last two months, AA has cut back on flights.  There's still no definite word on how many aircraft will go to the desert, and there's some talk about a few coming back from there.  The rule of thumb calls for 100 jobs per aircraft, but that includes flight crew, maintenance, ticketing, ground support, and more.

May you live in interesting times. 

[heironymouspasparagus]

Ok, let's see now...

Oklahoma has cut taxes again and again.
Passed the alleged "Right to Work".
Has liquor by the drink.
Got plenty of people willing to work for very low wages.
All the casinos anyone could want.
Created a "business friendly" environment.
Cooler average temperatures than Texas.
Pretty new ballpark.
Rejuvenated old buildings.
Great college football - that only costs millions of dollars per year.
Free college tuition to talented students that promise to stay after graduation for X number of years.  Oooppss!  Sorry - I forgot - we don't do Progressive!  Just as well, the jobs aren't there; they're heading to Texas.


And yet, companies are still making a beeline for the border.  Gee, I guess the people running the show in this state really do know what they are doing.  Not.

Ya can't blame this one (or any of them really) on a union or government or anything else except Okie-ism.
Now I'm wondering when Whirlpool and Kimberly Clark will pull out?  Obviously nothing here for them after all that free tax money we gave them.

Maybe we should be looking at some "quality of life issues" - some of the things we talked about in the street lighting topic.  Things that make a place more comfortable, intellectual, interesting, and possibly even exciting to live.  It's so much more than just playing the tape stuck on the "cut taxes", "deregulate business" loop.  

'Cause something ain't working somewhere. 

[DolfanBob]

Ok, let's see now...

Oklahoma has cut taxes again and again.
Passed the alleged "Right to Work".
Has liquor by the drink.
Got plenty of people willing to work for very low wages.
All the casinos anyone could want.
Created a "business friendly" environment.
Cooler average temperatures than Texas.
Pretty new ballpark.
Rejuvenated old buildings.
Great college football - that only costs millions of dollars per year.
Free college tuition to talented students that promise to stay after graduation for X number of years.  Oooppss!  Sorry - I forgot - we don't do Progressive!  Just as well, the jobs aren't there; they're heading to Texas.


And yet, companies are still making a beeline for the border.  Gee, I guess the people running the show in this state really do know what they are doing.  Not.

Ya can't blame this one (or any of them really) on a union or government or anything else except Okie-ism.
Now I'm wondering when Whirlpool and Kimberly Clark will pull out?  Obviously nothing here for them after all that free tax money we gave them.

Maybe we should be looking at some "quality of life issues" - some of the things we talked about in the street lighting topic.  Things that make a place more comfortable, intellectual, interesting, and possibly even exciting to live.  It's so much more than just playing the tape stuck on the "cut taxes", "deregulate business" loop.  

'Cause something ain't working somewhere. 

Ding, Ding, Ding ! We have a winner. Very well said.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Ding, Ding, Ding ! We have a winner. Very well said.

And it is so very, very sad.... we have such a beautiful state, good people (mostly), and SO much additional potential that is just not being realized.  If I ever cried, it would make me want to cry.


But I won't.  I will continue to rage against the machine!
What the US needs is More Free Speech!!

[Red Arrow]

Ok, let's see now...

So we should...

Oklahoma has cut taxes again and again.

Raise our taxes to the highest in the nation?

Passed the alleged "Right to Work".

Require all business with 2 or more employees to be a union shop, regardless of the desires of the workers?

Has liquor by the drink.

Go back to prohibition?  Prohibition like at statehood?  No legal beer, wine, booze?

Got plenty of people willing to work for very low wages.

Raise the minimum wage to $30/hr?

All the casinos anyone could want.

Get rid of all casinos?  Go back to having the Native Americans totally dependent on the US Gov for support?

Created a "business friendly" environment.

Strive to be the most business unfriendly state? Pass onerous regulations concerning pay, layoffs....?

Cooler average temperatures than Texas.

I'm not so sure after this last summer.

Pretty new ballpark.

Tear down the ballpark? While we're at it, tear down the BOK center?

Rejuvenated old buildings.

Tear them down? Get rid of any character and history Tulsa has left?

Great college football - that only costs millions of dollars per year.

The story I usually am told is that college football pays for itself and then some.  Maybe you have different info.

Free college tuition to talented students that promise to stay after graduation for X number of years.  Oooppss!  Sorry - I forgot - we don't do Progressive!  Just as well, the jobs aren't there; they're heading to Texas.

Start a program that requires any wanting to work in Oklahoma after graduating from college to pay extra tuition?

And yet, companies are still making a beeline for the border.  Gee, I guess the people running the show in this state really do know what they are doing.  Not.

I know that the opposites that I presented are a bit silly but the things you presented as useless are like buying a lottery ticket, enabling the miracle.

Maybe we should be looking at some "quality of life issues" - some of the things we talked about in the street lighting topic.  Things that make a place more comfortable, intellectual, interesting, and possibly even exciting to live.

I can agree there are other things that should be addressed, but they should be in addition to the efforts already expended.

[Conan71]

Ok, let's see now...

Oklahoma has cut taxes again and again.
Passed the alleged "Right to Work".
Has liquor by the drink.
Got plenty of people willing to work for very low wages.
All the casinos anyone could want.
Created a "business friendly" environment.
Cooler average temperatures than Texas.
Pretty new ballpark.
Rejuvenated old buildings.
Great college football - that only costs millions of dollars per year.
Free college tuition to talented students that promise to stay after graduation for X number of years.  Oooppss!  Sorry - I forgot - we don't do Progressive!  Just as well, the jobs aren't there; they're heading to Texas.


And yet, companies are still making a beeline for the border.  Gee, I guess the people running the show in this state really do know what they are doing.  Not.

Ya can't blame this one (or any of them really) on a union or government or anything else except Okie-ism.
Now I'm wondering when Whirlpool and Kimberly Clark will pull out?  Obviously nothing here for them after all that free tax money we gave them.

Maybe we should be looking at some "quality of life issues" - some of the things we talked about in the street lighting topic.  Things that make a place more comfortable, intellectual, interesting, and possibly even exciting to live.  It's so much more than just playing the tape stuck on the "cut taxes", "deregulate business" loop.  

'Cause something ain't working somewhere. 

Tulsa loses 230 jobs and you use that as an opportunity to doosh up the entire state?  Your myopia is disturbing.

An interesting debate would be what's our return on investment when we panic and dole out major tax incentives or downright payments from tax funds to supposedly retain or create jobs for a major existing employer like AA vs. taking that same money and incubating small businesses which could potentially add more jobs than the behemoth down the block?

A lot of people thought AA had specific requirements to retain or add x amount of jobs as a result of V-2025 funds and more funds in, I think, 2007.  At least that's the way it was sold to tax payers.  Now we find out that was never the case, AA was never contractually obligated to create jobs or to keep x amount here for a given period in return for our investment in AA.

Shouldn't there be a contracted amount of net jobs and not a proposed amount before tax dollars are spent?

[TheArtist]

Everywhere I have shopped in Texas has sales tax besides on food. As for cost of living yes its higher in Texas then in Tulsa or OKC, but outside of the metros and you start to get on even ground.

Actually the cost of living isn't really higher.  It may be higher on average, on paper, but comparing apples to apples it isn't.  For instance, rent for an apartment.  Had thought of moving to Dallas for a time so went apartment hunting there.  Found nicer apartments there than you could find here, for the same price.  What skews the averages up is the fact that there are also a  LOT more expensive apartments there than you can find here.  Looking at all the apartments "on average" it appears that they cost more there, but if say you were looking for an average "Tulsa quality"  (which sucks btw) apt. you could easily find nicer there for less cost than here.

[Hoss]

Actually the cost of living isn't really higher.  It may be higher on average, on paper, but comparing apples to apples it isn't.  For instance, rent for an apartment.  Had thought of moving to Dallas for a time so went apartment hunting there.  Found nicer apartments there than you could find here, for the same price.  What skews the averages up is the fact that there are also a  LOT more expensive apartments there than you can find here.  Looking at all the apartments "on average" it appears that they cost more there, but if say you were looking for an average "Tulsa quality"  (which sucks btw) apt. you could easily find nicer there for less cost than here.

Try owning a vehicle and carrying insurance in either of the two largest Texas metro areas (DFW which includes Dallas, Collin, Delta, Denton, Ellis, Hunt, Johnson, Kaufmann, Parker, Rockwall, Tarrant and Wise counties; and the Houston Metro which includes Harris, Ft Bend, Montgomery, Brazoria, Galveston, Liberty, Waller, Chambers, Austin and San Jacinto counties).  M costs alone nearly tripled when I moved there, and that was for the most inexpensive rates.  I understand you are a mass transit guy, and I love mass transit if it fits into a metro area.  Places like NY, SF, even the DC metro, it does.  But not either of those two, even though they have good mass transit, it usually centers around a park-and-ride.

[heironymouspasparagus]

I know that the opposites that I presented are a bit silly but the things you presented as useless are like buying a lottery ticket, enabling the miracle.

I can agree there are other things that should be addressed, but they should be in addition to the efforts already expended.

I guess it was a little bit too subtle without a little more explanation.  It's not that those things are completely useless - right to work is a complete bust - the campaign promised many more jobs and 20% higher wages - neither of which happened.  Lowering taxes until our infrastructure has gotten to the point it has is another bust - and no one said anything about going to the highest taxes in the nation - but we certainly should not have cut them to the point where they do physical damage to us.

It's that they are obviously NOT the key provisions that are required to develop an economy.  At best they are third or fourth order effects.

[Red Arrow]

It's that they are obviously NOT the key provisions that are required to develop an economy.  At best they are third or fourth order effects.

I'll give you 2nd to 3rd order but no lower.

And, just as Obama claims the stimulus has prevented loss of even more jobs than has occured,  I think the items you listed have helped to some degree although I might give you that some were overdone.

As far as right to work - what's with N. Carolina.  Since no one believes they just wanted to build a plant there because of the Smokey Mountains and other natural attributes, it might just be right to work.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Tulsa loses 230 jobs and you use that as an opportunity to doosh up the entire state?  Your myopia is disturbing.

An interesting debate would be what's our return on investment when we panic and dole out major tax incentives or downright payments from tax funds to supposedly retain or create jobs for a major existing employer like AA vs. taking that same money and incubating small businesses which could potentially add more jobs than the behemoth down the block?

A lot of people thought AA had specific requirements to retain or add x amount of jobs as a result of V-2025 funds and more funds in, I think, 2007.  At least that's the way it was sold to tax payers.  Now we find out that was never the case, AA was never contractually obligated to create jobs or to keep x amount here for a given period in return for our investment in AA.

Shouldn't there be a contracted amount of net jobs and not a proposed amount before tax dollars are spent?

Doosh the entire state?  Not a chance.  (Now that is a reactionary comment!)  Dooshing the stupid stuff we do sometimes??  Absolutely!!  'Cause we fall into the trap of believing too many people with hidden agendas that are NOT in our best interest.

Should have read the post immediately following that one.  As reminder;

And it is so very, very sad.... we have such a beautiful state, good people (mostly), and SO much additional potential that is just not being realized.  If I ever cried, it would make me want to cry.


We are on exactly the same page about tax incentives to companies.  Incubators are a much better approach.  As would be investing seriously in education.  Rather than making it more difficult to go to college or tech school, we should be making it easier.  There have been several posts here deriding people currently in the news who are talking about lower cost college (free tuition).  Advanced education has been convincingly proven for eternity (my reactionary comment) to add many times its cost to the economy and its return in increased tax revenues - not just paid back in full, but with multiples of its cost as interest!  MUCH more than ANY straight out tax cut has ever done.

So why do we keep up the drum beat about that stupid crap - tax cuts??  You know why.  It benefits the 1%.  And does not benefit the 99%.

2025 - typical "pork" in many ways.  The comment "sold to the taxpayers" is right.  Bill of goods.  Made nice for us already here.  How does it bring in more industry?

One area you missed - infrastructure!  We have such a mess in the state in so many ways.  You drive the turnpike - get off sometime and drive under some of those bridges.  I bet it will make you a little nervous.

A corollary to that is the turnpike itself.  IF we are SO concerned about bringing "new" into the state, getting people to be interested in moving here and bringing their companies with them, then why would we use turnpikes as the discouragement it is.  Especially getting in and out of Tulsa!  There is NO four lane interstate level road coming in/out of town that doesn't cost.  Even truckers consciously go out of their way to avoid this state JUST BECAUSE of the turnpikes.

This entity has always, since the very beginning been nothing more than a slush fund to allow a channel for BOTH parties to pay back favors with political patronage.  And allow a TON of debt to be incurred outside of the Constitutional requirement of a balanced budget.  Last annual report I looked at - several years ago - showed over $2 billion in debt.  And just try to buy one of those turnpike bonds as investment - it is "invitation only" as a reward for something done for someone.

[heironymouspasparagus]

I'll give you 2nd to 3rd order but no lower.

And, just as Obama claims the stimulus has prevented loss of even more jobs than has occured,  I think the items you listed have helped to some degree although I might give you that some were overdone.

As far as right to work - what's with N. Carolina.  Since no one believes they just wanted to build a plant there because of the Smokey Mountains and other natural attributes, it might just be right to work.

2nd to 3rd??  LOL!!  Really...I chuckled out loud when I read that.  I love it - very cool.  (If I had said 5th or 6th, would you have said 3rd or 4th?  I know how you love being contrary with me!)

I will grant you that - maybe some of that list has saved some, but we are still hemorrhaging.  Companies are leaving and/or de-emphasizing their northeast OK operations.  (The latest AA 200+ is just a small part of it.)  

Right to Work is one where there is no doubt that it makes no difference, and may well make the problem worse.  As shown in Oklahoma.  Not only did wages not go up, nor companies come to town based on right to work, but the exact opposite has been occurring ever since - even before the last recession.  Don't matter what pronouncements are made by people about not coming here because we didn't have it before - well, we got it now, so what is their most recent excuse for not coming here?


Bringing up something new - I have heard my entire life about "growing the economy", creating new jobs, bringing in new companies - the mantra.  This has always seemed to be very generic - no real focus on what kind of companies or jobs we should be trying to attract.  We have taken a shotgun approach to throwing money at anyone that comes along to try to get them to come here, but it has lead to a rather 'scattered' approach.

I suspect (and submit) that we would be more effective if there were a thought out direction to our efforts.  We don't seem to be able to do that here in Tulsa OR Oklahoma City.

One apparently successful example of this is Mid-America Industrial Park in Pryor.  I know that being a "public trust" is considered a bad thing in many of the circles here, but it really does work well.  Their goal now has to become - one of the leading centers for manufacturing, processing and distribution in the United States.  They didn't get there overnight, but there is continuous thought given to the process.  Probably because of their structure as a public trust so they DON'T have to worry so much about next quarters results.  Looks to me like a very good example of public versus private collaboration.

http://www.maip.com/overview.php

One more thing - perhaps we could use tax incentives, if we were smarter about it.  How about private companies started here, successful for years, but then sold off to out of state entities when the founder/heirs decide they are done with it and want to cash out?  We have had a LOT of that happen during my lifetime and invariably the people of this state come out on the short end of that stick.  (This would be a good thing for Federal level, too.)

Structure the tax code such that if the owner cashes out, that's ok, they just pay the capital gains that would be due.  BUT - if they "sell" it out to an employee ownership structure, they pay NO capital gains.  Maybe even pay a tax incentive (10%?) to encourage this approach.  Keep the company here, keep the jobs here, keep the economic activity benefits here.  Owner gets the same amount - or more - just doesn't pay taxes on it.  If the employees don't want to deal with it, ok.  Sell out as normal.  

And the cheapest government funded tax incentive.