American Airlines status

[Conan71]

Doosh the entire state?  Not a chance.  (Now that is a reactionary comment!)  Dooshing the stupid stuff we do sometimes??  Absolutely!!  'Cause we fall into the trap of believing too many people with hidden agendas that are NOT in our best interest.

Should have read the post immediately following that one.  As reminder;

And it is so very, very sad.... we have such a beautiful state, good people (mostly), and SO much additional potential that is just not being realized.  If I ever cried, it would make me want to cry.


We are on exactly the same page about tax incentives to companies.  Incubators are a much better approach.  As would be investing seriously in education.  Rather than making it more difficult to go to college or tech school, we should be making it easier.  There have been several posts here deriding people currently in the news who are talking about lower cost college (free tuition).  Advanced education has been convincingly proven for eternity (my reactionary comment) to add many times its cost to the economy and its return in increased tax revenues - not just paid back in full, but with multiples of its cost as interest!  MUCH more than ANY straight out tax cut has ever done.

So why do we keep up the drum beat about that stupid crap - tax cuts??  You know why.  It benefits the 1%.  And does not benefit the 99%.

2025 - typical "pork" in many ways.  The comment "sold to the taxpayers" is right.  Bill of goods.  Made nice for us already here.  How does it bring in more industry?

One area you missed - infrastructure!  We have such a mess in the state in so many ways.  You drive the turnpike - get off sometime and drive under some of those bridges.  I bet it will make you a little nervous.

A corollary to that is the turnpike itself.  IF we are SO concerned about bringing "new" into the state, getting people to be interested in moving here and bringing their companies with them, then why would we use turnpikes as the discouragement it is.  Especially getting in and out of Tulsa!  There is NO four lane interstate level road coming in/out of town that doesn't cost.  Even truckers consciously go out of their way to avoid this state JUST BECAUSE of the turnpikes.

This entity has always, since the very beginning been nothing more than a slush fund to allow a channel for BOTH parties to pay back favors with political patronage.  And allow a TON of debt to be incurred outside of the Constitutional requirement of a balanced budget.  Last annual report I looked at - several years ago - showed over $2 billion in debt.  And just try to buy one of those turnpike bonds as investment - it is "invitation only" as a reward for something done for someone.

I cringe to think what our turnpikes would look like if they weren't toll roads. 

I'm in full agreement that free college tuition is a far better investment than long-term social program benefits for the undereducated.

[heironymouspasparagus]

I cringe to think what our turnpikes would look like if they weren't toll roads. 

I'm in full agreement that free college tuition is a far better investment than long-term social program benefits for the undereducated.

Turnpike topic goes to a point I have harped on for decades -  QUIT ELECTING THESE CLOWNS!!!!

There was an insurance agent in Locust Grove in the 60's who campaigned a lot to fix highway 33 east of Tulsa.  Made too much sense - for decades, the OK legislature intentionally refused to help that mess of a road, despite it being a death trap and being a good idea to fix it.  After he died, they turned the turnpike people loose on it, so now you can go to AR easily.  On a toll road.

[Red Arrow]

2nd to 3rd??  LOL!!  Really...I chuckled out loud when I read that.  I love it - very cool.  (If I had said 5th or 6th, would you have said 3rd or 4th?  I know how you love being contrary with me!)

No, I would have held out for for 2nd & 3rd.  You love being contrary too.

Right to Work is one where there is no doubt that it makes no difference, and may well make the problem worse.

You and I disagree about unions.  That is not going to change.

One apparently successful example of this is Mid-America Industrial Park in Pryor.

I used to work for a company at Pryor. MAIP is overall OK but not without its problems.  I do not wish to discuss them on a public forum.

One more thing - perhaps we could use tax incentives, if we were smarter about it.  How about private companies started here, successful for years, but then sold off to out of state entities when the founder/heirs decide they are done with it and want to cash out?  We have had a LOT of that happen during my lifetime and invariably the people of this state come out on the short end of that stick.  (This would be a good thing for Federal level, too.)

Structure the tax code such that if the owner cashes out, that's ok, they just pay the capital gains that would be due.  BUT - if they "sell" it out to an employee ownership structure, they pay NO capital gains.  Maybe even pay a tax incentive (10%?) to encourage this approach.  Keep the company here, keep the jobs here, keep the economic activity benefits here.  Owner gets the same amount - or more - just doesn't pay taxes on it.  If the employees don't want to deal with it, ok.  Sell out as normal.  

That sounds like a tax break for the rich to me.  When did you become a Republican?

[heironymouspasparagus]

No, I would have held out for for 2nd & 3rd.  You love being contrary too.

You and I disagree about unions.  That is not going to change.

I used to work for a company at Pryor. MAIP is overall OK but not without its problems.  I do not wish to discuss them on a public forum.

That sounds like a tax break for the rich to me.  When did you become a Republican?

Absolutely.  It is a case of "take a side, I'll take the other..."

Unions have been a non-event in this country for decades.  Kind of makes it tough to blame an entity that has so little true power.

MAIP is far from perfect, I know.  There does seem to be some general theme, though.  Not like Austin, TX.  And Dallas.  Technology, semiconductors, software.


Tax break for the rich...??  well, it IS a WIN-WIN situation instead of the kind of crap that goes on today.  Can you tell me any other tax break that benefits everyone as much as that would?  (Rhetorical question - I know the answer; there isn't one.)  Have you ever had a company sold out from under you?

How many 'home-grown' companies - and the jobs they represent - have gone away??  Over the years, there have been a lot.  Lowrance.  Bed-Check.  Coburn Optical in Muskogee.  FW Murphy is getting weird with their merger - not sure how that will play out - hope it stays here.  REDA pump in Bartlesville has been 'de-emphasizing' local operations for years - was sold out decades ago.  Baker Hughes wants to move Centrilift, but hasn't yet - another local start that sold out of state.  Oil Dynamics - sold to big guy (Centrilift).  United Parts in OKC - large auto parts rebuilder gone - not sure of their exact history, but will get more info today if interested.  There is a lot of this stuff going on all the time.  Shouldn't happen if the people who built the company want to try to keep it going.  PSO being sold out over and over.  AEP has sure been an improvement... NOT!!

[Red Arrow]

Unions have been a non-event in this country for decades.  Kind of makes it tough to blame an entity that has so little true power.

Their power has been diminished somewhat but some of them can still swing a pretty big stick.

Tax break for the rich...??  well, it IS a WIN-WIN situation instead of the kind of crap that goes on today.  Can you tell me any other tax break that benefits everyone as much as that would?  (Rhetorical question - I know the answer; there isn't one.)

Not a bad idea.  I was just surprised that even though it would be good for the employees you would allow a break for the rich guy even if the only motivation was to keep a business local.  I also think selling a business to your heirs should be a bit easier.   

Have you ever had a company sold out from under you?

Not directly.  One was a successful company that underwent a "merger" that ultimately allowed it to go under. The other was  a small company that ultimately did not survive an embezzlement problem.

The other place I worked is still in business, hanging on in the present economy the last I heard.  I've only been 4 places since late 1979.

[Conan71]

Unions have been a non-event in this country for decades.  Kind of makes it tough to blame an entity that has so little true power.

Who are you trying to kid with that?  Any diminished power would be the result of jobs and less union dues American union workers formerly performed (and contributed) which are now overseas or in RTW states.

UAW, anyone?  Aren't they one of the larger share-holders in Genital Motors now?  Unions still have plenty of stroke, and they leave companies looking for less expensive ways to manufacture these days.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Who are you trying to kid with that?  Any diminished power would be the result of jobs and less union dues American union workers formerly performed (and contributed) which are now overseas or in RTW states.

UAW, anyone?  Aren't they one of the larger share-holders in Genital Motors now?  Unions still have plenty of stroke, and they leave companies looking for less expensive ways to manufacture these days.

Down around 6 to 9% of the workforce, depending on source.  About the same as this time one century ago.  Way before the best times this country has ever seen.

Reached a peak near 30% and has been downhill ever since then.  About 1981.  See the connecting thread there?

[Red Arrow]

See the connecting thread there?

Yes, you like to confuse correlation with cause & effect.

[DolfanBob]

Down around 6 to 9% of the workforce, depending on source.  About the same as this time one century ago.  Way before the best times this country has ever seen.

Reached a peak near 30% and has been downhill ever since then.  About 1981.  See the connecting thread there?

I really dont have a dog in this fight since I have never had the opportunity to work with a Union based job.
But when I worked a Tulsa Cable. A few higher up Managers wanted to bring in a Union. Of course a certain amount of signatures had to be gotten before it would go to a vote. That amount was never reached and I remember the treatment that was received to those who signed the petition by those who didnt. It affected some employees promotions. If it had passed, Who knows. I might still be working there. You never know.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Yes, you like to confuse correlation with cause & effect.

In your dreams!!

[heironymouspasparagus]

I really dont have a dog in this fight since I have never had the opportunity to work with a Union based job.
But when I worked a Tulsa Cable. A few higher up Managers wanted to bring in a Union. Of course a certain amount of signatures had to be gotten before it would go to a vote. That amount was never reached and I remember the treatment that was received to those who signed the petition by those who didnt. It affected some employees promotions. If it had passed, Who knows. I might still be working there. You never know.

Only been in one (The Brotherhood) for a short while, but have had to work with many, particularly in the north and east.  Can be an adventure.

I don't want to join one, but I can certainly appreciate the benefits that I have accrued over my lifetime from the efforts of the union people.  So many things that so many of us take for granted.  The current rage is to dismiss the value of a union - "they had a place once, but not necessarily in these 'modern times'" - well, I think we are living the results of that attitude right now.  Ain't it's gonna get uglier before it gets better.  And not because of union actions.

[Red Arrow]

In your dreams!!

What a horrible thought.

[Townsend]

KTUL tweet:

WFAA reporter saying AMR, parent company of American Airlines is cutting 24-thousand jobs

I have no idea if that's a chicken little or not.

[Conan71]

KTUL tweet:

I have no idea if that's a chicken little or not.

Holy smile!  I would assume they must be cutting routes and fleet size drastically then.  Either that or they've been paying for a lot of dead wood all these years.

[Townsend]

Holy smile!  I would assume they must be cutting routes and fleet size drastically then.  Either that or they've been paying for a lot of dead wood all these years.

I've never looked.  Is AMR mostly AA or is there more to it?