41st & Harvard - Christmas Tree Lot

[cannon_fodder]

The green roof building is pure crap, maintenance issues or otherwise.  It is a house converted into an office then added to with cinder blocks with asphalt in front of it.  The super adventurers club (or whatever) was also under utilized.

The other buildings might have been OK.  But given their location it was inevitable that eventually they would be turned commercial (zoned commercial, busy corner, plenty of commercial around them, surrounded by empty space).  Why did the old man buy them and let them turn into junk?  Because he could get them cheap since no one else wanted them and the property was worth more as a whole.   The loss is really 2 houses on about 1/4 an acre in exchange for several acres of probably mediocre development. 

If they had kept those houses in great shape and not tear them down, you would still oppose this development because it would ruin their property value and bring in chains.  The result would be acres of land in the middle of Tulsa that losses value and sits undeveloped. 

Sorry.  We can't only allow development that we like at this time.  While I wish they would build something urban in the space (2 story buildings, parking garage in the back, road frontage, etc.) - it is more urban to utilize the space for SOMETHING than to let it sit vacant.  It increases the overall density in Tulsa.  Every time open space is filled in the pressure to build in density goes up.

The neighborhoods choice is to have 4 vacant properties and an empty lot, or have a new development nearby.  I enjoy being able to walk to restaurants, liquor stores, and grocery stores.  Even if the buildings they are house in are not as urban as I would like them to be it makes my neighborhood more dense, walkable, and urban. 

So I agree whole wholeheartedly that I would like more urban design codes.  I would like to see developers WANT to encourage density.  I would like to see Tulsans recognized the things they like about "other cities" is the density and they have to demand it and support it to get it.

But I also think filling in empty space will help Tulsa become more dense and urban in the future by simple economics.  Your way (form based codes, infill, design plans [dear god, having a plan?)] is better - but this is an improvement over an empty lot in my humble opinion.

[RipTout]

Look for CVS on corner, Quick Trip next lot over and stripped out for remainder. It would be nice if the COT enforced the landscape ord....

[jne]

Anybody have the latest on this?  Looks like at the end of the day I will have a contract on a house very close to here.  Utica Square my arse - just hope its decent.  While we have plenty of damn drug stores in the area, I won't mind having a CVS walk to replace my current Walgreens walk (there is something to be said for the popsicle test).  Conan, is Quick Trip really in the works?  I sure wasn't listing that in my ideals.  While it would make for traffic woes, maybe it will run that ghetto station out of the other corner.  Drive-through? LAME. - if it must be, then let it be tacos.  Expecting the worst, hoping for mediocre...

[cannon_fodder]

I just got off the phone with Stan Frisbie (stanfrisbie.com) the developer of the site.  They have several things they are working on "but are not at liberty to discuss them. We are, well, we're leasing pad sites."  So, there ya' go!

I can tell you that work is going on at the site on a daily basis.  Just low level debris hauling and brush hog work.  But that's all I know for sure. . .

[FOTD]

The real devil in the deal is the owner Bill Manley.

The other devil you mention is just a broker that looks like Santa Claus. He will not disclose jack.

CVS is going on the corner.

The retail environment is dead. It will be very hard to get the rents necessary to develop out the strip at this time. Between the hideous banking industry, the dead consumer, and the terms from the owner all that's left is the pad site sale. This devil would like to see QT adjacent to CVS because the area demands one. Those goofs from SHELL still own a tract along 44 at Harvard and as we know it's in bankruptcy. Perhaps, QT buys their tract? But there is not much gasoline for sell along Harvard from 81st until you get to 36th. The 51st and Harvard intersection change will make the keosk at Food Pyramid a disaster.

Spartacus, calling Stan the Man is a waist of time unless you need a tip on how to jump out of a plane....

[brianh]

Can we get a larger place for club taboo in there? 

[FOTD]

Too close to a church....

[MichaelBates]

Those goofs from SHELL still own a tract along 44 at Harvard and as we know it's in bankruptcy.

I thought ODOT owned that.  At least that's what the security guard told me when I walked across the property (the gas station had already been demolished) to take pre-demolition photos of the Patrick Henry Apartments.

[MichaelBates]

Too close to a church....

Nearest church is 1/2 a mile away (Christ United Methodist), but it is too close to residential and probably too close to Patrick Henry Elementary.

[PonderInc]

Can't be a QT b/c of the PUD, which specifically excludes gasoline sales.  (Of course, the PUD application also says they're going to make every effort to save existing, mature trees on the neighbors' side of the development...)

According to the PUD, here's what it can't be:
Apartments, auto alarms installation, auto parts and accessories, auto radio and stereo installation, auto window tinting, bail bond office, bars, building materials, dance halls, day labor hiring, electrical supply, gasoline service station, gunsmith, locksmith, massage parlor, multi-family dwellings, night clubs, oil and lubrication service, pawn shop, plumbing fixtures, pool halls, secondhand store, shoe repair, taverns, tune-up service, video rentals.

Weird, arbitrary list.  At the TMAPC meeting, the developer said that this is "what the neighbors wanted."  Not true.  The first time we saw the application, it included this list.  (Although, I'm sure nobody wanted a dance hall here...)  In reality, nobody wanted a drive-thru restaraunt.  But you'll notice that's not on the excluded list. (They agreed to "no more than one drive-thru restaurant" but they can add more with a minor amendment, I believe.) 

At the time, they were trying to attract a donut or coffee shop with a drive-thru.

The whole PUD process is a total joke.  You end up arguing about stupid, irrelevant things, but you can't even attempt to affect the important stuff (ie: building siting, orientation to the street, the pedestrian experience, etc.).  We repeatedly asked for them to bring the buildings closer to the street, hide the parking behind, eliminate extra curb cuts, and create a larger green buffer between the development and the hood. 

Instead, the developer bragged to the TMAPC that the setback would be 4-5 times deeper than required by zoning!  As if this is good for the neighborhood.  (Hey, great job.  Thanks for sticking the loading dock in our backyards!)

Form-based codes, anyone???!!!!

[cannon_fodder]

Wow.  Thanks for the insight.

Why is he bragging about a huge setback?  I understand wanting a setback as you approach the corner of 41st and Harvard, but otherwise aren't HUGE surface lots near the street considered universally ugly?  Which is more attractive:  Peoria or Harvard from 31st to 41st?  How about Cherry Street or 41st from Harvard to I-44?  Utica Square or 71st and Memorial?

You have dashed my hopes for the area.  It's just space for sale for boxes of retail.  It isn't a real development. 

[FOTD]

I thought ODOT owned that.  At least that's what the security guard told me when I walked across the property (the gas station had already been demolished) to take pre-demolition photos of the Patrick Henry Apartments.

nope....Shell was given a complete useable parcel incorporating what was remaining with some of the apartment land as a tradeout (from what has been heard through demon ears)........

[FOTD]

Wow.  Thanks for the insight.

Why is he bragging about a huge setback?  I understand wanting a setback as you approach the corner of 41st and Harvard, but otherwise aren't HUGE surface lots near the street considered universally ugly?  Which is more attractive:  Peoria or Harvard from 31st to 41st?  How about Cherry Street or 41st from Harvard to I-44?  Utica Square or 71st and Memorial?

You have dashed my hopes for the area.  It's just space for sale for boxes of retail.  It isn't a real development. 

PUD's can be amended....

[FOTD]

Nearest church is 1/2 a mile away (Christ United Methodist), but it is too close to residential and probably too close to Patrick Henry Elementary.

Is there no longer an ugly spacey looking church behind that awful c store on the n/e corner?
Or did Valley Nat'l. suck it up?

[MichaelBates]

Is there no longer an ugly spacey looking church behind that awful c store on the n/e corner?
Or did Valley Nat'l. suck it up?

It's a funeral home now. The congregation moved out to far south Broken Arrow, if I recall correctly.

Interesting about Shell. So the apartment complex was not demolished because it was needed for the highway, but because it was needed for the Shell's relocation?