PlaniTulsa Workshop

[sgrizzle]

quote:Originally posted by TURobY

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle

What was the stick for?

If the facilitator has a question that is outside of their expertise, they can raise the stick for more assitance.

Someone should've told mine, although I'm not sure when he would've lowered it.

[carltonplace]

My facilitator kept trying to get me to put urban lofts around Woodward park. While I really like density, I just can't bring myself to rip down any oil mansions to get there.

[Double A]

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle

One of my table participants was blind. Kid you not. Our facilitator was a nice guy, but not much help.

Saw DoubleA there as well. "Mr Equal Representation" voting twice?

Maybe he registered under his Canadian name, DoubleEh.

I saw plenty of others who did the exact same thing. I'll go to as many of these as I can. Especially since there were people who don't even live in Tulsa participating at the tables I sat at both times. I didn't care much for the whole sticker chip process, I focused more on the comments section at the bottom of the map. I was surprised more tables didn't focus on getting utilities ran underground considering the ice storm and resulting chaos last winter. When I brought this up, it was a bit hit at our table and enjoyed enthusiastic, unanimous support.

[MDepr2007]

quote:Originally posted by cmoreno

sgrizzle:  u must have taken better notes than me.  where did frego get the #s that they based the packets on?

that's one thing that i never understood about yesterday.  who's to say that the population of tulsa will grow by _x_ amount, or that we will be able to attract _x_ jobs?  ...for that matter, what kinds of jobs are those?

Scary thought: They decide to let the Chamber start providing the estimated numbers

[cmoreno]

@MDepr2007: oh. wow.  *L*  then i will go and seek some of my own for sure.

@theartist:  presumably you would be able to attend the oct. one.  hey!  maybe we form a tulsa now table at the next workshop and combine all our ideas & can think between now and then what we would have done different.  my table focused on transportation and we had a pretty good thing going, but i saw some ideas from some of the other tables that i thought were brilliant.  

...that's another thing i would have liked.  instead of presenting maps from way far away that u could barely see, it'd have been better for us to just mingle around the other tables and talk to the other groups about their stuff.

[TheArtist]

You know what would have been really superb would have been to make this thing a 2 day event, perhaps on a weekend, or an all day and evening event if possible. First day or first half everyone do just as we did, but also then get to mingle around and hear others ideas. When listening to some of the other presentations I was like..."Oh, now thats a neat idea." So would indeed have been great to go back and rethink and redo the map.

I am actually baffled at how well thought out some peoples ideas were and all the different ideas they had. I mean I have plenty of ideas and could have done a neat map by myself and with a couple of the other people lol. BUT there were a couple of people at our table that just kept arguing every idea I had lol. And a couple that were very sweet but just didnt have any knowledge or grasp of the ideas and issues so kept having to try and educate and explain.  So between the arguing and the explaining we barely got our stickers down and didnt write anything on the map.

The urban design guy kept talking about cities in China and how dense they were and kept wanting to put practically every sticker downtown. Then one lady kept telling stories about how she lived way out in the country, past Claremore I think, and wanted rail out there.  Then when I mentioned the idea of having the area around Woodland be able to infill and become more dense and urban, the urban design guy almost had a fit thinking I was nuts and saying it couldnt handle the traffic? Then one lady wanted rail down Memorial and Yale. And the urban design guy didnt want rail of any type, anywhere, including downtown, or to Claremore lol, saying it would never work. Neither seemed to want to hear any compromise. I think the most reasonable people at my table were the two high school girls lol.

[Double A]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

You know what would have been really superb would have been to make this thing a 2 day event, perhaps on a weekend, or an all day and evening event if possible. First day or first half everyone do just as we did, but also then get to mingle around and hear others ideas. When listening to some of the other presentations I was like..."Oh, now thats a neat idea." So would indeed have been great to go back and rethink and redo the map.

I am actually baffled at how well thought out some peoples ideas were and all the different ideas they had. I mean I have plenty of ideas and could have done a neat map by myself and with a couple of the other people lol. BUT there were a couple of people at our table that just kept arguing every idea I had lol. And a couple that were very sweet but just didnt have any knowledge or grasp of the ideas and issues so kept having to try and educate and explain.  So between the arguing and the explaining we barely got our stickers down and didnt write anything on the map.

The urban design guy kept talking about cities in China and how dense they were and kept wanting to put practically every sticker downtown. Then one lady kept telling stories about how she lived way out in the country, past Claremore I think, and wanted rail out there.  Then when I mentioned the idea of having the area around Woodland be able to infill and become more dense and urban, the urban design guy almost had a fit thinking I was nuts and saying it couldnt handle the traffic? Then one lady wanted rail down Memorial and Yale. And the urban design guy didnt want rail of any type, anywhere, including downtown, or to Claremore lol, saying it would never work. Neither seemed to want to hear any compromise. I think the most reasonable people at my table were the two high school girls lol.

Did it ever occur to you that your ideas suck? Maybe the majority of Tulsans don't think that the best thing for Tulsa is dense overpriced, trendy, loft housing that only caters to gays, single people, and downsizing retirees. Welcome to the real world that exists outside of the mutual admiration society that is Tulsa Now. I'm glad to hear that most people at your table didn't buy into Electric Artistland.

[cmoreno]

you know what would be fun is if we did just get together w/ a huge map informally @ some place w/ tastey beverages and just took all the time we wanted to discuss, scheme, plot, draw, and combine our thoughts.

not @ the board meeting of course but maybe afterwards, or on a weekend or some such.

i wonder if we could get a copy of one of the workshop maps just to play with?  that'd be awesome.  i really wanted to study it more.  one thing that might be interesting is to mark areas where we already know future development is coming, like vision 2025 enhancements, the stuff that tcc / ttc is doing, the growth of osu-tulsa, the river developments in and near jenks, the millions being poured in to the area near bixby, the stuff that the tda is doing in downtown and in e. tulsa...  the tulsa hills development around turkey mountain...

it seemed to combine a WHOLE LOT of info that i didn't feel like i got NEARLY enough time to study.

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by Double A

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

You know what would have been really superb would have been to make this thing a 2 day event, perhaps on a weekend, or an all day and evening event if possible. First day or first half everyone do just as we did, but also then get to mingle around and hear others ideas. When listening to some of the other presentations I was like..."Oh, now thats a neat idea." So would indeed have been great to go back and rethink and redo the map.

I am actually baffled at how well thought out some peoples ideas were and all the different ideas they had. I mean I have plenty of ideas and could have done a neat map by myself and with a couple of the other people lol. BUT there were a couple of people at our table that just kept arguing every idea I had lol. And a couple that were very sweet but just didnt have any knowledge or grasp of the ideas and issues so kept having to try and educate and explain.  So between the arguing and the explaining we barely got our stickers down and didnt write anything on the map.

The urban design guy kept talking about cities in China and how dense they were and kept wanting to put practically every sticker downtown. Then one lady kept telling stories about how she lived way out in the country, past Claremore I think, and wanted rail out there.  Then when I mentioned the idea of having the area around Woodland be able to infill and become more dense and urban, the urban design guy almost had a fit thinking I was nuts and saying it couldnt handle the traffic? Then one lady wanted rail down Memorial and Yale. And the urban design guy didnt want rail of any type, anywhere, including downtown, or to Claremore lol, saying it would never work. Neither seemed to want to hear any compromise. I think the most reasonable people at my table were the two high school girls lol.

Did it ever occur to you that your ideas suck? Maybe the majority of Tulsans don't think that the best thing for Tulsa is dense overpriced, trendy, loft housing that only caters to gays, single people, and downsizing retirees. Welcome to the real world that exists outside of the mutual admiration society that is Tulsa Now. I'm glad to hear that most people at your table didn't buy into Electric Artistland.

Well actually that was the one idea everyone did agree on that they did like lol. Its also why they chose the "retaining youth" scenario though I was pushing for "neighborhood empowerment". They even opted to trade many of the low density housing chips for more high density housing ones.  

Btw, even if most people in Tulsa do not want those things for themselves, and I certainly agree, I think its perfectly fair to have at least some areas that are more dense and urban and have high priced, trendy loft housing. The vast majority of housing is not of that type, will not be of that type, and those who want that type of housing have a hard time finding a good selection of it. Its an underserved population. But I also kept pushing to have a mix of housing, to make sure that lower income people would also have plenty of options. I know you dont give a crap about me and my concerns or of people like me and others who like tht kind of urban housing, but I will still push to make sure your voice is heard on the issue of the need for affordable housing. This should be a city that serves the needs of everyone at every stage of their life and economic attainment.  

Its not an either or situation. There is plenty of room for all kinds of people. All of us who live here, of all types and economic situations deserve to have a voice and a seat at the table, and be able to have the kind of housing they want.

We see and hear examples of lower income people or housing, moving into an area and the neighbors complaining that it will bring down their home values. That it will bring down the neighborhod and it will become a bad area, pushing them out of their housing. Then we hear the opposite of some high end housing coming in and pushing up home values and pushing out the affordable housing. I contend that in well designed places, mixes of different income levels, even housing for the mentally ill and homeless, can all work together. That a mix of incomes in an area is a good thing. I would rather live in a funky neighborhood that is a mixture of all kinds of people of all income levels versus one that is boring and bland of one income group.

You may think that only working class or poor people count and that their needs are the only ones that matter. But I think your in the minority on that idea. I do not think most Tulsans would agree at all. I think most Tulsans would agree that there should be a mix of housing types of all kinds, for all ages and economic circumstances.

[MDepr2007]

I heard that kitchen tables can be a good place for sitting around working on a map.

[PonderInc]

From being at both workshops, I think there was overwhelming agreement that the status quo (with our one-size fits all land use policies and zoning code) is a recipe for failure.  

The current land use policy (and supporting zoning code) would force almost all future growth (jobs and housing) outside the city of Tulsa.  

Unless our zoning changes, we can consider Tulsa basically "fully developed." (This is obviously false if you drive around and look for the blank spaces.  You'll see the thousands of acres of space wasted on oversized, underutilized surface parking lots throughout town.)

Sure, some folks will always want single-family homes on large lots, separated from jobs and entertainment where they have to drive wherever they go.

A growing number of people, however, want other options.  The statistics and trends  suggest a growing number of singles (both young and old) will demand a different lifestyle.  Less lawn mowing and driving; more pedestrian-friendly community and accesibility to vibrant, interesting areas.

Tulsa has more than enough room for both.  The goal is to add options to our currently limited palette of choices.

[tshane250]

I facilitated both workshops and agree that the status quo is very unpopular with the participants. Both of my groups chose the "Neighborhood Empowerment" packet, but also strongly considered the "Retain Youth" packet.  Both of my groups wanted a more sustainable and walkable Tulsa that had more options in terms of mobility (i.e. Tulsa needs more transit options).  One group wanted rail and bus rapid transit, the other just bus rapid transit.  

In the first workshop, all my group members, except for one, were 20 somethings and they were all from Midtown.  My group in the second workshop was more diverse in terms of age and where they came from (most from Midtown, but one from north Tulsa and one from south Tulsa).  I had a couple of retired gentlemen and the rest were probably in their 40's.  

I was particularly surprised by the older gentlemen, in that they wanted Tulsa to be like it was when they were kids (i.e. walkable and everybody was very pro-Tulsa - oil boom days).  At first, I figured they would be anti-everything, but again, I was quite surprised.  

All in all, I am very excited about this process and am optimistic especially considering the large turnout.

[PonderInc]

I went to the third city-wide workshop as a backup facilitator in case they needed me.  Looked like they had about a hundred people or so there.  (About 300 had signed up.)  Still, it looked like a pretty good mix of folks, who were interested in participating.

I didn't stay for the whole event, since they didn't need extra facilitators.  For those who were there...how did it go?  How did it compare to previous workshops?