The Bailout

[Hoss]

quote:Originally posted by swake

quote:Originally posted by iplaw

quote:Originally posted by swake
Constitution of the United States

Section 2

Clause 1:

The House of Representatives shall be composed of Members chosen every second Year by the People of the several States, and the Electors in each State shall have the Qualifications requisite for Electors of the most numerous Branch of the State Legislature.


Now, There may be a couple of reps who are not contested, but that is rare.

Are you really this dense?

I know that half the House is up and that all of them voted one way or the other.  

READ THE FOLLOWING VERY CAREFULLY:

I was asking how many of those up for reelection, voted AGAINST the bill.  Asked another way, did anyone up for reelection vote FOR the bill?

Jeebus, are you really a lawyer?

The WHOLE house is up. Every election cycle. Two year terms, it's in that little quote I gave you.

Lawyers obviously don't have to excel at math while in college.

Unless they're small claims civil lawyers, then it would behoove them to do so.

[:O]

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by iplaw

The people didn't want this nonsense and they've made their voices heard.

The Dems couldn't even muster enough of their own to pass this bill.  The constituents of both parties were pressing hard to kill this bill.

I wonder what's going to happen tomorrow when we all wake up and world isn't on fire?

Things are going great.


Australia:
http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idUSSYD15308520080930

Japan:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26949764/

Belgium:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26932297/

United Kingdom:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26939852/

Canada:
http://canadianpress.google.com/article/ALeqM5iEbgjRLbNSoZX2Tle8AmuwB4w22w

Germany:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601100&sid=aIBE_fN.ZPlI&refer=germany

China:
http://www.chinaknowledge.com/News/news-detail.aspx?id=17819&cat=FIN

[Double A]

Economic collapse on an epic scale is the enema this country needs. The writing's been on the wall for many years now and we've just carried on with the dysfunction in a delusional state of denial. If there is a bailout, we'll just find ourselves in the same situation a few years down the road and nothing will really change. Times of great sacrifice and suffering have historically made this nation a better place as a result. Maybe the best thing in the long run for this shell game of an economy is to let it crash and burn. Addicts and enablers don't get real recovery until they hit rock bottom. We're so strung out that without hitting rock bottom, intervention is probably just a recipe for relapse once we're released from rehab when the insurance runs out.

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by Double A

Economic collapse on an epic scale is the enema this country needs. The writing's been on the wall for many years now and we've just carried on with the dysfunction in a delusional state of denial. If there is a bailout, we'll just find ourselves in the same situation a few years down the road and nothing will really change. Times of great sacrifice and suffering have historically made this nation a better place as a result. Maybe the best thing in the long run for this shell game of an economy is to let it crash and burn. Addicts and enablers don't get real recovery until they hit rock bottom. We're so strung out that without hitting rock bottom, intervention is probably just a recipe for relapse once we're released from rehab when the insurance runs out.

Thank you for this post. While what you say here sounds all London tough and Punk, it's obviously idiocy.

This should finally remove any last idea that anyone would want to ever take anything that you have to say seriously. To root for people to have the kind of real and life-threatening hardship that was the great depression is immoral and disgusting and shows your ignorance. This is what happens when all you know of history are the lyrics from punk rock songs.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by swake

quote:Originally posted by Double A

Economic collapse on an epic scale is the enema this country needs. The writing's been on the wall for many years now and we've just carried on with the dysfunction in a delusional state of denial. If there is a bailout, we'll just find ourselves in the same situation a few years down the road and nothing will really change. Times of great sacrifice and suffering have historically made this nation a better place as a result. Maybe the best thing in the long run for this shell game of an economy is to let it crash and burn. Addicts and enablers don't get real recovery until they hit rock bottom. We're so strung out that without hitting rock bottom, intervention is probably just a recipe for relapse once we're released from rehab when the insurance runs out.

Thank you for this post. While what you say here sounds all London tough and Punk, it's obviously idiocy.

This should finally remove any last idea that anyone would want to ever take anything that you have to say seriously. To root for people to have the kind of real and life-threatening hardship that was the great depression is immoral and disgusting and shows your ignorance. This is what happens when all you know of history are the lyrics from punk rock songs.

Agree strongly. What bothers me is that I think his attitude may reflect some thinking in Congress by representatives who can't comprehend the ramifications of their deeply held, fiscally morally superior beliefs. Its no longer conservative business, conservative politics, its some kind of "end times" religion.

Edit: As the Greatest Generation fades away, so does the memory of the widespread hardships, fears and turmoil of the Great Depression. But I have to say that I am becoming fearful of a bailout structured by this President, in this manner. I think we should cool off and really consider other plans. There will be paper losses in the market but those directly affected have been huge transgressors. It will take a while for the effects to trickle down and there is no assurance that they won't trickle down with the passage of this chunk of money thrown at the banks.

David Sirota makes some plausible arguments in his HuffPo comments today. His five reasons to vote no on the bailout are persuasive.

[iplaw]

quote:Originally posted by swake

quote:Originally posted by iplaw

The people didn't want this nonsense and they've made their voices heard.

The Dems couldn't even muster enough of their own to pass this bill.  The constituents of both parties were pressing hard to kill this bill.

I wonder what's going to happen tomorrow when we all wake up and world isn't on fire?

Things are going great.

They most certainly are.

[Wrinkle]

Finally heard a statistic which puts some framework around all this. The $700 Billion represents approximately 50% of ALL real property in the US!

That means your government was going to purchase every other house, building or property.

...doesn't that sound a little extreme, especially on a Taylor-Copyrighted "Hurry Up" deal?

[bbriscoe]

quote:Originally posted by Wrinkle

Finally heard a statistic which puts some framework around all this. The $700 Billion represents approximately 50% of ALL real property in the US!

That means your government was going to purchase every other house, building or property.

...doesn't that sound a little extreme, especially on a Taylor-Copyrighted "Hurry Up" deal?

LOL.  MYTH ALERT here!  Check snopes next time you get an email forwarded off the internet.

According to a 2004 Flow of Funds study in 2004, in the Investments text I teach from, total real estate in the US is worth $31 trillion.  That puts the bailout at a mere 2.25% of all real estate.

[sgrizzle]

I think we should use the opportunity to force some honesty in the banking industry. Tell the banks we will bail you out but no more excessive fees, exorbitant credit card rates, etc.

[Conan71]

There's no way that was close.  Weren't they putting the sub-prime defaults alone at $5 Trill awhile back?  And that was a percentage of the total mortgage market.

I dunno, maybe after adjusting for the bubble $1.4 trill is all it's worth now. [}:)]

[Wrinkle]

quote:Originally posted by bbriscoe

quote:Originally posted by Wrinkle

Finally heard a statistic which puts some framework around all this. The $700 Billion represents approximately 50% of ALL real property in the US!

That means your government was going to purchase every other house, building or property.

...doesn't that sound a little extreme, especially on a Taylor-Copyrighted "Hurry Up" deal?

LOL.  MYTH ALERT here!  Check snopes next time you get an email forwarded off the internet.

According to a 2004 Flow of Funds study in 2004, in the Investments text I teach from, total real estate in the US is worth $31 trillion.  That puts the bailout at a mere 2.25% of all real estate.

If so, I'll retract. But it and yourself are the first to try and put it into perspective. btw, it wasn't an email, it was a news source, so they apparently had it wrong, assuming, of course, your numbers are accurate.

EDIT: I suppose it's possible I mis-heard what they said, too. Perhaps it was 50% of 2008's mortgages, or such. Don't know now.

[Wrinkle]

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle

I think we should use the opportunity to force some honesty in the banking industry. Tell the banks we will bail you out but no more excessive fees, exorbitant credit card rates, etc.

I'm with you on this.
Financial industry has been out of control for so long, they now think it normal.

I remember when ATM's first came out, banks were promoting them as cost-saving since it meant they could hire fewer tellers. Now they charge you a fee to use them.

Frankly, I'm opposed to the concept of 'selling debt' altogether. At least as it's done now.

There's something wrong about waking up one day and being obligated fiscally to someone to whom you've never spoken, much less agreed to pay.

My deal was never with them. Going out of business and having assets acquired by someone is one thing, but existing companies simply dumping off to another entity, without acceptance by both parties, seems contrary to contract law.

[FOTD]

Letterman III:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUujTFwWJhU&eurl

The Shadow of the Pitchfork: Elite Panic Attack as Bailout Goes Bust
http://www.chris-floyd.com/component/content/article/3/1618-the-shadow-of-the-pitchfork-elite-panic-attack-as-bailout-goes-bust.html
"The vote by the House of Representatives to defeat the Wall Street bailout plan is the first act of political courage that the Congress of the United States has mounted in the last seven years. The fact that it was due largely to right-wing Republicans afraid of going down with the sinking ship of the witless leader they have followed blindly throughout his reign is a delicious irony -- but the whys and wherefores of the vote are not important. What matters is that one of America's moribund institutions has flickered to life long enough to derail a disastrous action that would have shoved the nation even deeper into the pit of corruption and ruin where it has been mired for so long.
The New York Times called the House vote "a catastrophic political defeat for President Bush, who had put the full weight of the White House behind the measure." But this is manifestly untrue. As everyone but the nation's media -- and the Democratic Party -- knows, George W. Bush has no "political weight" to use, or lose. Yes, he still retains the authoritarian powers that the spineless Democrats have given him with scarcely a whimper of protest (and often with boundless enthusiasm); but as a political force -- i.e., someone whose opinions and statements can sway popular opinion -- he has been a dead and rotting carcass for a long time. He is the most unpopular president in American history; and I can report from first-hand, eyewitness knowledge that he is thoroughly despised by some of the most rock-ribbed, Bible-believing, flag-waving, down-home, John Wayne-loving Heartland types that you can imagine. Even his own party -- a party fashioned in his own image, the Frankensteinian melding of willfully ignorant religious primitivism and rapaciously greedy crony capitalism that he has embodied in his twerpish person -- kept him away from their convention this year.

Nothing -- absolutely nothing -- could be politically safer than opposing George W. Bush. And yet the entire Democratic leadership, Barack Obama included, lined up to support a cockamamie plan proposed by this scorned and shriveled figure, a plan that was transparently nothing more than an audacious raid on the Treasury by Big Money hoods and yet another authoritarian power grab by a gang of murderous, torturing, warmongering toadies. This was the plan and these were the people that the Democrats decided to fight for.

What's more, the Democrats stood shoulder to shoulder with the president on what is apparently the only issue that can now stir Americans to genuine anger and widespread protest: a direct threat to their bank accounts. Wars of aggression like the Nazis used to wage; elaborate tortures like the KGB used to practice; concentration camps, lawbreaking leaders, diminishment of liberty, the slaughter of a million innocent people in a land destroyed by an illegal and pointless invasion -- all of that stuff is pretty much OK, easily swallowable, worth no more than a shrug or perhaps a frowny "tsk tsk" before going on to the sports pages or flipping over to another channel. But put out an open ploy to steal their money and give it to the filthy rich -- and baby, it's pitchfork time! Yet here, as the public face of just such a ploy, is where the Democrats chose to make their stand.

So Monday's rejection of the bailout plan is not a catastrophic political defeat for George W. Bush; he has no political standing, no political future. But it is a vast and humiliating defeat for the Democratic leadership, across the board, who, as Democrat Lloyd Dogget of Texas said


"never seriously considered any alternative" to the administration's plan, and had only barely modified what they were given. He criticized the plan for handing over sweeping new powers to an administration that he said was to blame for allowing the crisis to develop in the first place.

Now the Democratic elites have had their collective head handed to them on a platter. It is a dish most richly deserved. And although it is almost possible to believe that they will learn anything from this episode, there is now a chance -- a chance -- that we can at least have a discussion of alternatives to the Bush scheme.

I still believe it is unlikely any genuinely effective program -- one that could manage and mitigate the now-unavoidable effects of the Wall Street/Washington-induced disaster -- will ever get enacted. After all, the Democrats are largely owned by the same corrupt and greedy elites now seeking a handout. And it seems reasonable to assume that the Bipartisan Bailout Bunch will eventually find some kind of sugar to tempt away the two dozen votes they need for their next "compromise" on the Bush-Paulson plan.

Then again, who knows? There are obviously a lot of very powerful and privileged people sweating more bullets tonight than they have sweated in many and many a year. They have roused the drowsy beast of popular anger at last, and no one can say what might happen next. Probably nothing -- or rather, more of the same, in some form or another. But still,  it is good to see the icy beads of panic dotting the brows of elites who have inflicted and/or countenanced so much death, destruction, terror and degradation in the past few years. Today they have suffered a very rare defeat in the relentless, remorseless class war they have been waging against us for decades. And that is something to celebrate -- at least for one night."

[Double A]

The bailout is a monetary methadone maintenance program that just trades one opiate for another that is synthesized by more debt and deficit spending. Making future generations pay for our debt driven credit crackhead lifestyles so we can sustain a ponzi scheme to live beyond our means is truly disgusting, immoral and ignorant.

[Conan71]

FOTD, This flies in the face of the usual schlock you peddle around here.