Cherokee Casino looking for Indians to fill 1,000-

[Hometown]

Well Canon Since you are a White man with a higher education degree and you are not low income, I would say that here in the U.S. you enjoy some degree of advantage every day.

[cannon_fodder]

quote:Originally posted by Hometown

Well Canon Since you are a White man with a higher education degree and you are not low income, I would say that here in the U.S. you enjoy some degree of advantage every day.

Not to long ago I was a white man with very low income and a high school education.  8 years of college and $100,000 in loans later I have more education and am working on the income part.  My now wife and I both worked and both went to school opposite shifts and traded our son off between us to get where we are.  I'm confident I have spent more of my adult years under the poverty line than over it.  So the silver spoon argument doesn't really work, I missed my "white man" gratuity check apparently.

While I do not doubt levels of discrimination exist;  I do not believe I have ever been offered a job, raise, or advancement because of the color of my skin. Likewise, I have not been admitted, awarded a scholarship, or earned a grade based on the color of my skin.  I did not pass the bar exam based on my skin color (I am not alleging others have received grades or bar passages on skin color nor that minorities per se are unqualified for anything).

If you want to be honest a minority is far more likely to be, if not automatically awarded a scholarship, receives bonus points on admission, and can get preference in job hunting.  I'm not making any excuses for my performance (or indicating it was lacking) nor complaining.  Simply telling it how it is.  Colleges around the country court minority students.  High profile firms, major corporations, and even federal small business loans and contracts favor minorities.

Any advantage I enjoy I do so because of my own volition.  Not because of what racial identity my parents may, or may not have passed to me.  I am not disparaging anyone who has received such advantages, merely pointing out that my race has not been an integral part of any success I may have enjoyed.

Why is the concept of attempting to only judge qualifications instead of race, religion, sexual orientation, etc. so complicated?  Am I  think  hiring, admission, aid, contracting, and other decisions should be color blind?

What a strange world.



*to be perfectly clear - I am not implying any race, citizen group, or person succeeds merely because of the color of their skin, nor that any such group is less qualified per se than any other. Similarly,  I am not implying that racists for and against many groups are not still in existence.  Am I saying that racial discrimination for or against any group is illogical.

[Hometown]

I would say you have benefited because of your race even though you may not be aware of it.

Hard to believe that the life you are living is privileged isn't it?  I feel the same way.  

I couldn't believe it when I discovered our household was considered upper income.  But that was before we moved back to Tulsa.  I'm not sure where we stand now.  Feeling kind of disadvantaged now that I've been back on Tulsa wages for a couple of years.

You would probably have more generosity in your heart if it wasn't so hard to make ends meet.

[Gold]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

I don't buy it Gold.  Tribal citizenship is based solely on race.   Cherokee Citizen = Cherokee Blood.  If you are not racially Cherokee, you can not be a tribal member. Ergo, saying it is citizenship based is restricting the hiring to a particular race.

The Constitution (and interpretation thereof) creates plenty of distinctions that don't really exist.  Or legally exist but in the real world they are a fallacy to allow the law operate (black people were never 3/5ths of a person).   Not too mention when drafted a white person could be adopted into many of the tribes AND policy of the Indian tribes included wiping them out in their entirety...  I'd say relying on that document wholesale to set policy on Indian relations is a bit dubious.

I would never advocate this and it would be highly illegal... but if the Internet Workers Union were to only admit German-Americans, and Microsoft announced it would only hire Union members - would it not *really* be making the decision based on race?   To be a citizen of the United States you must not have any Indian blood.  Citizens can vote.  But I'm not denying you the right to vote because you are Indian... it's because you are not a citizen.

The underlying criteria is race based, ergo the entire decision is race based.  Even more clearly than a poll tax or other criteria (tests, etc.) to keep people from voting.  They could say whatever they wanted, *really* the intent was to to stop black people from voting in the South.  Here, the intent is to hire people that are racially Cherokee.

You can disagree about the merits of tribal hiring and tribal rights if you want, but clearly hiring only people from a certain group, when membership to that group is based exclusively on race, is a race based criteria.

I'm not arguing the normative aspects of this; it's just how they interpret the law.  I totally understand your point.  But, after spending two semesters learning way more Indian law than I ever thought I would, that's pretty much the distinction that they use.  If you try to change it, you risk turning this massive mess of law on its head.

Is that a bad thing?  Maybe, maybe not.  It's not like the federal government hasn't changed its mind on these issues several different ways back and forth.   Ultimately, if you want to discuss the policy ramifications of what the courts and legislatures have created, I'll agree that it's a total mess with some potentially very negative ramifications.  (I tend to think there is a good reason why gambling was outlawed for so long.)  Further, you make some fair points about the affirmative action issues.  But that's the world we live in.

If you undo the tribe/race distinction, there are some negative side effects.  What happens to something like ICWA, that while flawed, ultimately serves a pretty meaningful purpose? (Preserving tribal communities.)  I tend to think that the tribes deserve some special protections.  A lot of the problems come from our government's great success in failing to find a long term policy that will work.

[Conan71]

I don't think I've ever gambled in an Indian Casino.  I had some drinks and listened to a band one night.  It's rare that I ever gamble in any casino for that matter.  I stayed at the Mirage in Vegas a couple of years ago and didn't so much as plug a quarter in a machine.  I have an issue that I'd like to either have something tangible to show for where my $500 went or one hell of a hang over.  To me, gambling just has never tripped my trigger.

A friend of mine loves to say:

"Cherokee Nation Industries, getting even with whitey one degenerate gambler at at time."

[cannon_fodder]

Gold - to clarify Cherokee Nation enterprises does a ton of good for their tribal members who are/were disadvantaged.  While I agree the merits of casinos can be debated along with the other issues.  It is the principle of pretending citizenship does not equal race, and that race is not a factor that bothers me.

I also understand the Federal Law ramifications are ugly (albeit from a more elementary perspective).  Just stating my case.

[sauerkraut]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

I don't think I've ever gambled in an Indian Casino.  I had some drinks and listened to a band one night.  It's rare that I ever gamble in any casino for that matter.  I stayed at the Mirage in Vegas a couple of years ago and didn't so much as plug a quarter in a machine.  I have an issue that I'd like to either have something tangible to show for where my $500 went or one hell of a hang over.  To me, gambling just has never tripped my trigger.

A friend of mine loves to say:

"Cherokee Nation Industries, getting even with whitey one degenerate gambler at at time."

I'm not much of a gambler. I have gone to Las Vegas alot back in the 1980's on vacations, but I wound up spending my money on the Ladies. Gamabling can be fun if you know your limit and stick to it. The use of tokens makes it feel like your not really playing with real money. Some of the Vegas casinos have very good looking female dealers, I lost a few bucks at Bob Stubaks Vegas World at a BlackJack table with a attractive Female dealer and went over my limit. I don't know if that place is still there (thats the one with the roller-coaster atop a 1,000 foot tower). I was never in a Indian casino. There is a big Indian Casino in Kansas Just north of Topeka on highway 75. It really looks high class and fancy and full of colorful lights at night.. [B)]

[waterboy]

I just dislike preferential treatment by race. I don't practice it. Not because its the law but because it's just not right. To see it flaunted in the news is bad pr and I think less of them for practicing discrimination.

Disclosure: My great grandmother was 1/2 Cherokee, maybe more. She wouldn't enroll though because she feared mistreatment. So I identify but still...

Second disclosure, I have applied at each of the casinos many times over the years and even though I'm a college grad with business experience I can't even get an interview. Since I owned a refurbished commuter bus I tried to make an agreement to lease it to them or provide shuttle service. But you see, I'm not one of the tribe.

I'm not Jewish, Catholic, Evangelical, Native American, Hispanic, German, Black, or Republican even though I have a little of each. Hard to live here unless you're part of some group.[] Just plain poor and white like HT says. We all meet at the Warehouse Market over on Union at I-44!

[Hometown]

I work for a large local law firm with various offices.  In our large office we have 1 Black employee and 1 Native American employee.  Everyone else is English, Irish, German, Slavic or Scandinavian.  This would have been unheard of in the Bay Area.  You would lose business.

The topic of this thread is not about Affirmative Action but because it has become part of the discussion I'll point out that in the Bay Area, the underpinnings of Affirmative Action are really strained because generally Chinese Americans have more money and their children test much higher than any other ethnicity in California.

I would like to see Affirmative Action redrawn along economic lines that include low income people from all ethnicities including poor Whites.  I'm not sure how to address continuing racial obstacles though because returning to Tulsa has made it clear to me that racism is still prevalent.

You have to remember that as recently as one  generation ago, our policy was to remove Indian children from their families, remove them from their cultures and forbid them to speak their native tongue.  Ethnic cleansing that was a big part of our story here in Tulsa.

[cannon_fodder]

You have an Armenian in your office too.  That would seem like a super minority.  But I guess they are basically White, so they don't count?  What's more important in deciding who gets preferential treatment:  race, religion, or skin color?

I went to law school here in Tulsa.  We had a good number of black students, hispanic students, Indians, and Native Americans in my class.  Tulsa went out of their way to court (pun intended) minority students. Every minority I can think of but one took a job outside of Tulsa for more money than they were offered in Tulsa.  

Your notion that a large firm should go out and find someone to hire to match a color pallet is what disturbs me.  Essentially, because of the color of their skin they should be more sought after.  Preference on race is racism.  Show me that the firm refuses to hire black/native and I'll be offended, why shouldn't I be offended that they aren't looking to hire white people because their office doesn't match your color pallet?

And redrawing Affirmative Action along economic lines is equally troubling.  If my parents had money, I should be handicapped in my job search?  Not sure I get that, my dad has never given a reference nor gotten me a job.  His financial situation doesn't seem relevant to my employment in any way.

[Hometown]

You are so clever.  I'm flattered.

Don't let me find you tromping around my property.

I used to live next door to the Armenian National Cathedral in New York.  You know Armenians are one of the wealthiest groups in the United States.

The idea of affirmative action (signed into law by Richard Nixon) was to give a hand up to the folks that need it.  Now, I'll be the first to agree the results might be a bit skewed when you have middle class White folks arbitrating who is disadvantaged and who is not.  But the intent is good and there are still folks out there who deserve a hand up.

I've spent the last 23 years working for some of the finest law firms in the United States and having a diverse team has been a priority in all of those firms until my return here.

I worry about Tulsans being able to function beyond our state borders because the Diversity Train has left the station and we aren't on board.  And that's not to say that Tulsa isn't much more diverse than it was when I was growing up here.  In fact, I'd say we have the core of a voting majority.

[rwarn17588]

quote:Originally posted by zstyles

No non-indians allowed though....

The Cherokee Nation is looking for employees at its casinos — but only Indians need apply.

The tribe will host a job fair next month at the Cherokee Casino Resort looking to fill about 1,000 casino jobs.

A tribal enrollment card or certified degree of Indian blood card will be needed to apply.

Does this include freedmen?

Or does an already-discriminatory policy get even more discriminatory?

A**holes.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by Hometown

You are so clever.  I'm flattered.

Don't let me find you tromping around my property.

I used to live next door to the Armenian National Cathedral in New York.  You know Armenians are one of the wealthiest groups in the United States.

The idea of affirmative action (signed into law by Richard Nixon) was to give a hand up to the folks that need it.  Now, I'll be the first to agree the results might be a bit skewed when you have middle class White folks arbitrating who is disadvantaged and who is not.  But the intent is good and there are still folks out there who deserve a hand up.

I've spent the last 23 years working for some of the finest law firms in the United States and having a diverse team has been a priority in all of those firms until my return here.

I worry about Tulsans being able to function beyond our state borders because the Diversity Train has left the station and we aren't on board.  And that's not to say that Tulsa isn't much more diverse than it was when I was growing up here.  In fact, I'd say we have the core of a voting majority.

If the black person in your firm is a clerk in his early '40's and knows a lot of broadway show tunes (and ostensibly he's straight [] ), he's an old high school friend of mine.

Affirmative Action is another of the well-meaning laws which has resulted in discrimination against the best-qualified candidate getting a job.  It's worked to intimidate employers into settling for less than their ideal when shopping for candidates.

I can understand the culture at the time this concept and law came out of, those were much different times and we were not very far out of segregation.  However, anyone born after about 1970 or so doesn't really have a concept of discimination against blacks or other minorities other than what they have read or heard, it's not been much of a reality.  That is until they get passed over by a less qualified candiate for a college admission, job, or job promotion.

Cannon is right, you can't have anti-discrimination benefitting one group w/o discriminating against another group(s).

[Hometown]

I don't think you'd have a lot of agreement from minorities with your assessment.

[iplaw]

quote:Originally posted by zstyles

No non-indians allowed though....

The Cherokee Nation is looking for employees at its casinos — but only Indians need apply.

The tribe will host a job fair next month at the Cherokee Casino Resort looking to fill about 1,000 casino jobs.

A tribal enrollment card or certified degree of Indian blood card will be needed to apply.

Mike Miller, spokesman for the Cherokee Nation, said the tribe isn't offering preference based on race but on tribal citizenship.

What if they don't need 1,000 indians, maybe they only need a REALLY BIG one.



Apache chief inuk-chuk!