Tulsa World Says We're Out of Step

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by Wilbur

quote:Originally posted by Hometown[/i

Yah.  I hear where you're coming from.  We really suck.

1.  Lowest gas prices in the country.
2.  Low cost of living.
3.  Our housing market basically unaffected.
4.  Low unemployment.
5.  A still decent economy.

Too bad we aren't doing as great as everyone else.

Wake up Wilbur! Stop believing the news that only covers the last fifteen minutes and only an inch deep.

1.I assume you mean gasoline and not gas- We are close to the rest of the country and the lower prices are killing our state tax revenues. Other states don't rely on gasl. revenues as much as we do.

2.Low cost of living is balanced off with LOW payscales and a lower quality of life. Easy to live here if you have good income or income from out of state. Otherwise its a wash.

3.Housing market unnaffected? Pay attention to the signs my friend. Real estate signs. Lots of new rental property around town as people give up their homes because of the mortgage fiasco. Yes, it hit here too but don't expect to hear about it from your Realtor@ friends or the COC. But take a little drive through north Tulsa and check out the vacant homes that only a year ago were rented out. Now they're being dismantled by thieves. Spend some time looking at the hundreds of foreclosures offered up by property companies like Perry who leveraged their properties and now can't make payments. We lost over 30,000 immigrants due to HB1804 and that didn't help either. Check into the average selling time of a listing and note the increase in listings all over town. Talk to a home builder.

4. Low unemployment? What is your latest quote and from where? There is a lag in reporting and actual numbers. Cox just laid off about a thousand and stopped hiring. Office Depot has a hiring freeze as do most retail employers.  Sunday classifieds lowest I've seen in a decade. Especially note very few retail help wanted ads with Christmas approaching.

5. Still decent economy? Says who? You got a good job well then bully for you. We are a little out of phase with the rest of the country economically but you're p***ing into the wind if you think we're in good shape in Tulsa.

[Wilbur]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

quote:Originally posted by Wilbur

quote:Originally posted by Hometown[/i

Yah.  I hear where you're coming from.  We really suck.

1.  Lowest gas prices in the country.
2.  Low cost of living.
3.  Our housing market basically unaffected.
4.  Low unemployment.
5.  A still decent economy.

Too bad we aren't doing as great as everyone else.

Wake up Wilbur! Stop believing the news that only covers the last fifteen minutes and only an inch deep.

1.I assume you mean gasoline and not gas- We are close to the rest of the country and the lower prices are killing our state tax revenues. Other states don't rely on gasl. revenues as much as we do.

2.Low cost of living is balanced off with LOW payscales and a lower quality of life. Easy to live here if you have good income or income from out of state. Otherwise its a wash.

3.Housing market unnaffected? Pay attention to the signs my friend. Real estate signs. Lots of new rental property around town as people give up their homes because of the mortgage fiasco. Yes, it hit here too but don't expect to hear about it from your Realtor@ friends or the COC. But take a little drive through north Tulsa and check out the vacant homes that only a year ago were rented out. Now they're being dismantled by thieves. Spend some time looking at the hundreds of foreclosures offered up by property companies like Perry who leveraged their properties and now can't make payments. We lost over 30,000 immigrants due to HB1804 and that didn't help either. Check into the average selling time of a listing and note the increase in listings all over town. Talk to a home builder.

4. Low unemployment? What is your latest quote and from where? There is a lag in reporting and actual numbers. Cox just laid off about a thousand and stopped hiring. Office Depot has a hiring freeze as do most retail employers.  Sunday classifieds lowest I've seen in a decade. Especially note very few retail help wanted ads with Christmas approaching.

5. Still decent economy? Says who? You got a good job well then bully for you. We are a little out of phase with the rest of the country economically but you're p***ing into the wind if you think we're in good shape in Tulsa.

Don't let facts get in the way of a good argument:

1.  Gasoline:  US average = $2.22, Tulsa at $1.73.
http://www.eia.doe.gov/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/wrgp/mogas_home_page.html

2.  Cost of Living:  Oklahoma ranks below average.
http://www.top50states.com/cost-of-living-by-state.html

3.  Housing market:
http://www.housingpredictor.com/oklahoma.html

4.  Unemployment:  Oklahoma has 6th lowest rate.
http://money.cnn.com/pf/features/lists/state_unemployment/

5.  Economy:  most look at the health of the economy on the above factors.

[Hometown]

If you factor in our high utility bills, the cost of living in Tulsa is equivalent to what it cost to live in Oakland, CA.  It costs us about $62,000 a year to maintain a household with a stripped down budget in Tulsa.  Our incomes in Tulsa are over 50 percent less than they were in Oakland.

We were doing much better in Oakland.

Tulsa's affordability is a myth just about everyone has bought into.  But it doesn't wash.

Sure housing is less than California, but your utilities in California are very low.  Here they are very high.  There goes our savings on housing.

Then there is the moral issue of watching your friends hauled off and deported.  Not completely unlike Nazi Germany.  Oklahoma will have a special chapter in the Book on Racism in the U.S.

Folks, we have a lot of work to do here in Oklahoma.

I look back to the governorship of Marland as a standard of what Oklahoma can achieve with the right leadership.

[rwarn17588]

quote:Originally posted by Hometown

If you factor in our high utility bills, the cost of living in Tulsa is equivalent to what it cost to live in Oakland, CA.  It costs us about $62,000 a year to maintain a household with a stripped down budget in Tulsa.  Our incomes in Tulsa are over 50 percent less than they were in Oakland.

We were doing much better in Oakland.

Tulsa's affordability is a myth just about everyone has bought into.  But it doesn't wash.

Sure housing is less than California, but your utilities in California are very low.  Here they are very high.  There goes our savings on housing.

Where do you get this nonsense?

Average per kilowatt hour in California: 14.98 cents

Average per kilowatt hour in Oklahoma: 10.39 cents

http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epm/table5_6_a.html

That's a 40 percent difference in Oklahoma's favor. That's not even close.

Crimony, what do you do? Put the thermostat on 85 in the winter and 68 in the summer?

BTW, if you need any help on your so-called "stripped-down" budget, call me. A lot of people in this town live comfortably on less than that.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by Wilbur

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

quote:Originally posted by Wilbur

quote:Originally posted by Hometown[/i

Yah.  I hear where you're coming from.  We really suck.

1.  Lowest gas prices in the country.
2.  Low cost of living.
3.  Our housing market basically unaffected.
4.  Low unemployment.
5.  A still decent economy.

Too bad we aren't doing as great as everyone else.

Wake up Wilbur! Stop believing the news that only covers the last fifteen minutes and only an inch deep.

1.I assume you mean gasoline and not gas- We are close to the rest of the country and the lower prices are killing our state tax revenues. Other states don't rely on gasl. revenues as much as we do.

2.Low cost of living is balanced off with LOW payscales and a lower quality of life. Easy to live here if you have good income or income from out of state. Otherwise its a wash.

3.Housing market unnaffected? Pay attention to the signs my friend. Real estate signs. Lots of new rental property around town as people give up their homes because of the mortgage fiasco. Yes, it hit here too but don't expect to hear about it from your Realtor@ friends or the COC. But take a little drive through north Tulsa and check out the vacant homes that only a year ago were rented out. Now they're being dismantled by thieves. Spend some time looking at the hundreds of foreclosures offered up by property companies like Perry who leveraged their properties and now can't make payments. We lost over 30,000 immigrants due to HB1804 and that didn't help either. Check into the average selling time of a listing and note the increase in listings all over town. Talk to a home builder.

4. Low unemployment? What is your latest quote and from where? There is a lag in reporting and actual numbers. Cox just laid off about a thousand and stopped hiring. Office Depot has a hiring freeze as do most retail employers.  Sunday classifieds lowest I've seen in a decade. Especially note very few retail help wanted ads with Christmas approaching.

5. Still decent economy? Says who? You got a good job well then bully for you. We are a little out of phase with the rest of the country economically but you're p***ing into the wind if you think we're in good shape in Tulsa.

Don't let facts get in the way of a good argument:

1.  Gasoline:  US average = $2.22, Tulsa at $1.73.
http://www.eia.doe.gov/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/wrgp/mogas_home_page.html

2.  Cost of Living:  Oklahoma ranks below average.
http://www.top50states.com/cost-of-living-by-state.html

3.  Housing market:
http://www.housingpredictor.com/oklahoma.html

4.  Unemployment:  Oklahoma has 6th lowest rate.
http://money.cnn.com/pf/features/lists/state_unemployment/

5.  Economy:  most look at the health of the economy on the above factors.

And don't let reading comprehension or reality get in your way. Oh, yeah, that's why you are such a good little red republican.

Your first two points may be true but are irrelevant. Gasoline prices are fluctuating and dependent upon supply issues. Has no bearing on OK as a great place to live. Probably reflects that we have less demand and oversupply, an indication of a poor economy.

Having a low cost of living is as illusory as noting that bread only cost a nickel during the depression. We make less money here than elsewhere in the country. We are a cheap labor state and likely to stay that way. So, you don't pay as much for your housing but you don't make as much either. Food, cars, utilities, crime are all comparable in cost to the rest of the country so your benefit (if there is one) is that
you have less selection in goods, services and the arts, but the selections you do have are less costly. That's lower quality of life. Its like comparing life on the farm to NYC and only using cost of living as your criteria.

Your sources are also suspect:

"The unemployment rates below are for September and were released on October 21, 2008."

Read past an inch deep. These are figures that coincided with or slightly preceded the mortgage meltdown. IOW, they don't reflect the ripple that is now reaching out to smaller markets in the Midwest. Not timely info.

"A housing slump has hit Oklahoma City. Rising prices and foreclosures attribute to the slow down. But Oklahoma City hasn't experienced high rates of foreclosures like other areas.
Oklahoma City is forecast by Housing Predictor to see home prices decrease marginally from what it has experienced over the last two years, but still muster 2.5% in appreciation in 2008.


 City        Forecast
 Oklahoma City            2.5%
 Tulsa           2.1%
 Edmond            2.6%
 Lawton           1.9%
The Tulsa market has seen more foreclosures than Oklahoma City, mainly due to a weakening job market. But new businesses will bring more jobs to the area in 2008 to bolster the economy."

This includes the remarks you left out. Read them carefully Wilbur. They quote reality which is that OKC and Tulsa have been hit hard by foreclosures, then estimate a growth pattern that matches the last few years in this state. Based on what? Pretty much an educated guess since they rely on journalists, economists and real estate insiders to make these predictions but fail to cite any of them or their timeliness. In fact, there is no way to even find out who these guys are!

So if you believe in this stuff, you voted for McCain, and I'm gradually starting to understand why.

[Hometown]

quote:Originally posted by rwarn17588

quote:Originally posted by Hometown

If you factor in our high utility bills, the cost of living in Tulsa is equivalent to what it cost to live in Oakland, CA.  It costs us about $62,000 a year to maintain a household with a stripped down budget in Tulsa.  Our incomes in Tulsa are over 50 percent less than they were in Oakland.

We were doing much better in Oakland.

Tulsa's affordability is a myth just about everyone has bought into.  But it doesn't wash.

Sure housing is less than California, but your utilities in California are very low.  Here they are very high.  There goes our savings on housing.

Where do you get this nonsense?

Average per kilowatt hour in California: 14.98 cents

Average per kilowatt hour in Oklahoma: 10.39 cents

http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epm/table5_6_a.html

That's a 40 percent difference in Oklahoma's favor. That's not even close.

Crimony, what do you do? Put the thermostat on 85 in the winter and 68 in the summer?

BTW, if you need any help on your so-called "stripped-down" budget, call me. A lot of people in this town live comfortably on less than that.

Rwarn, It doesn't freeze near the Ocean.  Maybe that has something to do with my electric bill that averaged $100 a month in California (all electric 1900 square feet) compared to $185 a month averaged in Oklahoma (electric and gas with 2300 square).  My gas runs about $40 to $90 here depending on the season. We didn't have gas service at our condo.  Water and trash runs me about $100 a month here.

Our splurge is netflix.  We spend about $150 to $200 a week on food.  Groceries were less in California and better quality and no sales tax.  We have two late model cars that are paid for and our insurance is the same here as it was there.

Apparently you didn't travel far enough down 66 to broaden your horizon.  If you settled here to save money you made a mistake.

We spend as much here as we did in Oakland.  TULSA IS NOT CHEAP.  I'VE BEEN SAYING THIS FOR THE PAST THREE YEARS.

We made much more and spent about the same in Californa.  

Legal Secretary Californa around ($75,000).
Legal Secretary Tulsa around ($40,000).

Folks, I'm here to tell you would come out ahead in California (if you could find a good deal on housing, and you actually might be able to these days).

Plus state law gives you two 15 minute breaks a day in addition to your lunch, state disability insurance versus 0 here.  et cetera, et cetera.  I mean the list goes on and on.  I try not to harp on these things because I don't want folks to feel bad about their circumstances here in Oklahoma but honestly, I wasn't kidding when I said we are already paying on our bad karma.

[sgrizzle]

Water and trash run $100? I have a 2000sqft house with 4 people and mine is half that.

Keep in mind that your house in CA might've been different building materials & efficiency.

[rwarn17588]

quote:Originally posted by Hometown

quote:Originally posted by rwarn17588

quote:Originally posted by Hometown

If you factor in our high utility bills, the cost of living in Tulsa is equivalent to what it cost to live in Oakland, CA.  It costs us about $62,000 a year to maintain a household with a stripped down budget in Tulsa.  Our incomes in Tulsa are over 50 percent less than they were in Oakland.

We were doing much better in Oakland.

Tulsa's affordability is a myth just about everyone has bought into.  But it doesn't wash.

Sure housing is less than California, but your utilities in California are very low.  Here they are very high.  There goes our savings on housing.

Where do you get this nonsense?

Average per kilowatt hour in California: 14.98 cents

Average per kilowatt hour in Oklahoma: 10.39 cents

http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epm/table5_6_a.html

That's a 40 percent difference in Oklahoma's favor. That's not even close.

Crimony, what do you do? Put the thermostat on 85 in the winter and 68 in the summer?

BTW, if you need any help on your so-called "stripped-down" budget, call me. A lot of people in this town live comfortably on less than that.

Rwarn, It doesn't freeze near the Ocean.  Maybe that has something to do with my electric bill that averaged $100 a month in California (all electric 1900 square feet) compared to $185 a month averaged in Oklahoma (electric and gas with 2300 square).  My gas runs about $40 to $90 here depending on the season. We didn't have gas service at our condo.  Water and trash runs me about $100 a month here.

Our splurge is netflix.  We spend about $150 to $200 a week on food.  Groceries were less in California and better quality and no sales tax.  We have two late model cars that are paid for and our insurance is the same here as it was there.

Apparently you didn't travel far enough down 66 to broaden your horizon.  If you settled here to save money you made a mistake.

Au contraire.

When I moved from metro-east St. Louis to here, I indeed saved money. My pay was about the same, we got a much better house for marginally more money, property taxes dropped by 40 percent, utility rates dropped, and gasoline costs dropped as well.

It also sounds like you're using way too much water. Our water, sewer and trash fees run less than $40 a month consistently.

And $150 to $200 a week on food sounds crazy high. Is the word "generic" in your vocabulary?

[Hometown]

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle

Water and trash run $100? I have a 2000sqft house with 4 people and mine is half that.

Keep in mind that your house in CA might've been different building materials & efficiency.

I have a half acre with landscaping and fescue and I have to water all year round.  Do you?  Maybe you know something I don't.

[Hometown]

quote:Originally posted by rwarn17588

quote:Originally posted by Hometown

quote:Originally posted by rwarn17588

quote:Originally posted by Hometown

If you factor in our high utility bills, the cost of living in Tulsa is equivalent to what it cost to live in Oakland, CA.  It costs us about $62,000 a year to maintain a household with a stripped down budget in Tulsa.  Our incomes in Tulsa are over 50 percent less than they were in Oakland.

We were doing much better in Oakland.

Tulsa's affordability is a myth just about everyone has bought into.  But it doesn't wash.

Sure housing is less than California, but your utilities in California are very low.  Here they are very high.  There goes our savings on housing.

Where do you get this nonsense?

Average per kilowatt hour in California: 14.98 cents

Average per kilowatt hour in Oklahoma: 10.39 cents

http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epm/table5_6_a.html

That's a 40 percent difference in Oklahoma's favor. That's not even close.

Crimony, what do you do? Put the thermostat on 85 in the winter and 68 in the summer?

BTW, if you need any help on your so-called "stripped-down" budget, call me. A lot of people in this town live comfortably on less than that.

Rwarn, It doesn't freeze near the Ocean.  Maybe that has something to do with my electric bill that averaged $100 a month in California (all electric 1900 square feet) compared to $185 a month averaged in Oklahoma (electric and gas with 2300 square).  My gas runs about $40 to $90 here depending on the season. We didn't have gas service at our condo.  Water and trash runs me about $100 a month here.

Our splurge is netflix.  We spend about $150 to $200 a week on food.  Groceries were less in California and better quality and no sales tax.  We have two late model cars that are paid for and our insurance is the same here as it was there.

Apparently you didn't travel far enough down 66 to broaden your horizon.  If you settled here to save money you made a mistake.

Au contraire.

When I moved from metro-east St. Louis to here, I indeed saved money. My pay was about the same, we got a much better house for marginally more money, property taxes dropped by 40 percent, utility rates dropped, and gasoline costs dropped as well.

It also sounds like you're using way too much water. Our water, sewer and trash fees run less than $40 a month consistently.

And $150 to $200 a week on food sounds crazy high. Is the word "generic" in your vocabulary?

I started paying attention to the other shoppers a while back and they were paying about the same or more.  My partner cooks from scratch just about every night.  He's a cook.  We shop at Reasors and Las Americas.

Maybe you should go along to the market with your wife.  You may be paying more than you think.

[rwarn17588]

quote:Originally posted by Hometown

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle

Water and trash run $100? I have a 2000sqft house with 4 people and mine is half that.

Keep in mind that your house in CA might've been different building materials & efficiency.

I have a half acre with landscaping and fescue and I have to water all year round.  Do you?  Maybe you know something I don't.

Then I would suggest replacing it with a more heat- and drought-tolerant plants. I wouldn't waste huge amounts of water on plants you can't even eat. You have different priorities, I guess.

BTW, I would call spending $50-plus a month on watering plants definitely a "splurge."

[rwarn17588]

quote:Originally posted by Hometown

Maybe you should go along to the market with your wife.  You may be paying more than you think.

What makes you think I don't?

Since I'm in charge of the books, I'm very well aware of what we spend at the grocery store.

Do your grocery trips include alcohol, by any chance?

[Hometown]

You've got a point.  I planted azaleas and roses and fescue knowing they require a lot of water.  I hope it will pay off if we sell.

[Hometown]

quote:Originally posted by rwarn17588

quote:Originally posted by Hometown

Maybe you should go along to the market with your wife.  You may be paying more than you think.

What makes you think I don't?

Since I'm in charge of the books, I'm very well aware of what we spend at the grocery store.

Do your grocery trips include alcohol, by any chance?

Miller Lite 30 can case about $20 on special.  Partner puts the liquor on our credit card so that falls under another category.  We put as much as we can on our card and pay it off every month and get the freebie rewards.  That's how I do most of our clothes shopping.  Free gift cards.

I'm afraid the bad news is that it really isn't as cheap here as people like to think.  That's okay.  We're here because we love it right?  Or our reward awaits us in Heaven.

[Wilbur]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

quote:Originally posted by Wilbur

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

quote:Originally posted by Wilbur

quote:Originally posted by Hometown[/i

Yah.  I hear where you're coming from.  We really suck.

1.  Lowest gas prices in the country.
2.  Low cost of living.
3.  Our housing market basically unaffected.
4.  Low unemployment.
5.  A still decent economy.

Too bad we aren't doing as great as everyone else.

Wake up Wilbur! Stop believing the news that only covers the last fifteen minutes and only an inch deep.

1.I assume you mean gasoline and not gas- We are close to the rest of the country and the lower prices are killing our state tax revenues. Other states don't rely on gasl. revenues as much as we do.

2.Low cost of living is balanced off with LOW payscales and a lower quality of life. Easy to live here if you have good income or income from out of state. Otherwise its a wash.

3.Housing market unnaffected? Pay attention to the signs my friend. Real estate signs. Lots of new rental property around town as people give up their homes because of the mortgage fiasco. Yes, it hit here too but don't expect to hear about it from your Realtor@ friends or the COC. But take a little drive through north Tulsa and check out the vacant homes that only a year ago were rented out. Now they're being dismantled by thieves. Spend some time looking at the hundreds of foreclosures offered up by property companies like Perry who leveraged their properties and now can't make payments. We lost over 30,000 immigrants due to HB1804 and that didn't help either. Check into the average selling time of a listing and note the increase in listings all over town. Talk to a home builder.

4. Low unemployment? What is your latest quote and from where? There is a lag in reporting and actual numbers. Cox just laid off about a thousand and stopped hiring. Office Depot has a hiring freeze as do most retail employers.  Sunday classifieds lowest I've seen in a decade. Especially note very few retail help wanted ads with Christmas approaching.

5. Still decent economy? Says who? You got a good job well then bully for you. We are a little out of phase with the rest of the country economically but you're p***ing into the wind if you think we're in good shape in Tulsa.

Don't let facts get in the way of a good argument:

1.  Gasoline:  US average = $2.22, Tulsa at $1.73.
http://www.eia.doe.gov/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/wrgp/mogas_home_page.html

2.  Cost of Living:  Oklahoma ranks below average.
http://www.top50states.com/cost-of-living-by-state.html

3.  Housing market:
http://www.housingpredictor.com/oklahoma.html

4.  Unemployment:  Oklahoma has 6th lowest rate.
http://money.cnn.com/pf/features/lists/state_unemployment/

5.  Economy:  most look at the health of the economy on the above factors.

And don't let reading comprehension or reality get in your way. Oh, yeah, that's why you are such a good little red republican.

Your first two points may be true but are irrelevant. Gasoline prices are fluctuating and dependent upon supply issues. Has no bearing on OK as a great place to live. Probably reflects that we have less demand and oversupply, an indication of a poor economy.

Having a low cost of living is as illusory as noting that bread only cost a nickel during the depression. We make less money here than elsewhere in the country. We are a cheap labor state and likely to stay that way. So, you don't pay as much for your housing but you don't make as much either. Food, cars, utilities, crime are all comparable in cost to the rest of the country so your benefit (if there is one) is that
you have less selection in goods, services and the arts, but the selections you do have are less costly. That's lower quality of life. Its like comparing life on the farm to NYC and only using cost of living as your criteria.

Your sources are also suspect:

"The unemployment rates below are for September and were released on October 21, 2008."

Read past an inch deep. These are figures that coincided with or slightly preceded the mortgage meltdown. IOW, they don't reflect the ripple that is now reaching out to smaller markets in the Midwest. Not timely info.

"A housing slump has hit Oklahoma City. Rising prices and foreclosures attribute to the slow down. But Oklahoma City hasn't experienced high rates of foreclosures like other areas.
Oklahoma City is forecast by Housing Predictor to see home prices decrease marginally from what it has experienced over the last two years, but still muster 2.5% in appreciation in 2008.


 City        Forecast
 Oklahoma City            2.5%
 Tulsa           2.1%
 Edmond            2.6%
 Lawton           1.9%
The Tulsa market has seen more foreclosures than Oklahoma City, mainly due to a weakening job market. But new businesses will bring more jobs to the area in 2008 to bolster the economy."

This includes the remarks you left out. Read them carefully Wilbur. They quote reality which is that OKC and Tulsa have been hit hard by foreclosures, then estimate a growth pattern that matches the last few years in this state. Based on what? Pretty much an educated guess since they rely on journalists, economists and real estate insiders to make these predictions but fail to cite any of them or their timeliness. In fact, there is no way to even find out who these guys are!

So if you believe in this stuff, you voted for McCain, and I'm gradually starting to understand why.

Lets resort to name calling, that's really helping your cause.  NOT!

You might be surprised to know that gasoline fluctuates in this state as it does in every other state.  Oklahoma always ranks near the bottom in price.

To claim my source for unemployment is suspect because it was released on October 21 is bogus.  Particularly since the November 21 report hasn't been released yet.  I used the latest figures.  Do you have something other then a false claim that says in one month Oklahoma has somehow surpassed the rest of the country in unemployment.

And, the housing market is still growing in the state, based on your own post.  Much different in other states.

Come on.  Facts!  Not name calling and unsubstantiated beliefs.