Brack O-Bonga? (decrimninalize marijuana)

[PonderInc]

Here's a fun list of dangers associated with use of a common legal drug.  Sure sounds like a more serious threat to the nation's health than the occasional joint...

The most common side effects are rash, ringing in the ears, headaches, dizziness, drowsiness, abdominal pain, nausea, diarrhea, constipation and heartburn. This drug reduces the ability of blood to clot and therefore increases bleeding after an injury. May cause ulceration of the stomach or intestine, and the ulcers may bleed.  Reduces the flow of blood to the kidneys and impairs function of the kidneys.  Fluid retention (edema), blood clots, heart attacks, hypertension and heart failure have also been associated with the use of this drug.

...what's the drug?  

Ibuprofen

Pot should be legalized, taxed, and regulated by the FDA.

[Double A]

This is a great flick that exposes the dark underbelly of the war on drugs and explains a lot about why certain segments of government and law enforcement want things kept the way they are.

American Drug War

[MH2010]

"While I've never seen a person that is stoned (on marijuana) be violent, never heard of someone committing a crime for pot money, and never knew of anyone who repeatedly tried "to quit" marijuana and failed. Sure it can be abused, isn't good for you, and shouldn't be used by kids... but if that is our basis even then marijuana should be down the list of problems.

If you believe marijuana to be all the things a good cop is supposed to believe and have never actually known a "pot head" or tried the drug yourself, then we are probably at irreconcilable positions. If the hippies, ravers, "ganstas" (read: not gang members), neighbors, professionals, and Presidents that I know to smoke(d) pot are somehow not representational of a normal pot smoker then please explain it to me."

In college I had several friends who were potheads.  Two are now dead, several I lost touch with and one is now a doctor.  Before I became a police officer I worked as an addiction counselor.  I specialized in adolescent substance abuse.  So you can see where my views come from.

As a counselor and later as an officer, I have seen people that were stoned become violent. I have seen people steal from their families, their neighbors and strangers for pot money. I have also seen people who tried to quit marijuana and couldn't.

Marijuana is not the harmless drug people want to believe. If people decide to legalize it then that is fine. I just want people to be prepared for the consequences of their actions.

[patric]

quote:Originally posted by MH2010

As a counselor and later as an officer, I have seen people that were stoned become violent. I have seen people steal from their families, their neighbors and strangers for pot money. I have also seen people who tried to quit marijuana and couldn't.

What youre describing sounds like it has more to do with the person than a drug.
If I had a predisposition to, say, jewelry, I might end up stealing to support that habit if I lacked behavioral and/or moral restraint.

P.S. Last nights FOX23 poll overwhelmingly favored more lenient marijuana laws in Oklahoma.
Must have been a good night for pizza deliveries.

[rwarn17588]

quote:Originally posted by MH2010

"While I've never seen a person that is stoned (on marijuana) be violent, never heard of someone committing a crime for pot money, and never knew of anyone who repeatedly tried "to quit" marijuana and failed. Sure it can be abused, isn't good for you, and shouldn't be used by kids... but if that is our basis even then marijuana should be down the list of problems.

If you believe marijuana to be all the things a good cop is supposed to believe and have never actually known a "pot head" or tried the drug yourself, then we are probably at irreconcilable positions. If the hippies, ravers, "ganstas" (read: not gang members), neighbors, professionals, and Presidents that I know to smoke(d) pot are somehow not representational of a normal pot smoker then please explain it to me."

In college I had several friends who were potheads.  Two are now dead, several I lost touch with and one is now a doctor.  Before I became a police officer I worked as an addiction counselor.  I specialized in adolescent substance abuse.  So you can see where my views come from.

As a counselor and later as an officer, I have seen people that were stoned become violent. I have seen people steal from their families, their neighbors and strangers for pot money. I have also seen people who tried to quit marijuana and couldn't.

Marijuana is not the harmless drug people want to believe. If people decide to legalize it then that is fine. I just want people to be prepared for the consequences of their actions.

OK ... so did these dead friends die as a direct result of pot? And out of how many total friends did this occur?

I don't think any of us are proclaiming pot to be as harmless as a kitten. But the criminal punishment entailed with producing and using pot is way out of whack with its meager effects compared to other drugs, legal and illegal. There's no disputing that.

When you have legal substances such as alcohol and tobacco that have created far worse health and societal effects, then you understand why your firm stance against pot seems at worst disingenuous or at least ill-advised.

But what do I know? I'm just a non-pot-smoker with no substance-abuse problems. I can't possibly have a lucid opinion about this. []

[Hoss]

quote:Originally posted by MH2010

"While I've never seen a person that is stoned (on marijuana) be violent, never heard of someone committing a crime for pot money, and never knew of anyone who repeatedly tried "to quit" marijuana and failed. Sure it can be abused, isn't good for you, and shouldn't be used by kids... but if that is our basis even then marijuana should be down the list of problems.

If you believe marijuana to be all the things a good cop is supposed to believe and have never actually known a "pot head" or tried the drug yourself, then we are probably at irreconcilable positions. If the hippies, ravers, "ganstas" (read: not gang members), neighbors, professionals, and Presidents that I know to smoke(d) pot are somehow not representational of a normal pot smoker then please explain it to me."

In college I had several friends who were potheads.  Two are now dead, several I lost touch with and one is now a doctor.  Before I became a police officer I worked as an addiction counselor.  I specialized in adolescent substance abuse.  So you can see where my views come from.

As a counselor and later as an officer, I have seen people that were stoned become violent. I have seen people steal from their families, their neighbors and strangers for pot money. I have also seen people who tried to quit marijuana and couldn't.

Marijuana is not the harmless drug people want to believe. If people decide to legalize it then that is fine. I just want people to be prepared for the consequences of their actions.

In the same light, I've seen people steal for alcohol money, so I think that argument can be used for legal substances also.

I will say it.  I smoked pot when I was younger.  Don't anymore.  Don't smoke anymore period.  But I do believe that it should be legalized and regulated like alcohol.

But I DO think that law enforcement resources could be better used than to work on putting the recreational pot smoker in jail.  Maybe on something constructive, like catching REAL criminals.

And for those of you saying the natural progression to harder drugs goes through pot doesn't seem to understand that whether or not the substance is illegal, people will ALWAYS do it, regardless.  How about some regulation on it then?  Tax the hell out of it.

[cannon_fodder]

Thank you for your perspectives MH2010.  I hope you were not offended, I wasn't sure if you were raising arguments or just holding the party line.  Clearly your perspectives on the subject have weight.

Of my friends who tried pot the ones who got caught generally have a lower standard of living today than those that have not.  The criminal record precluded graduate school, led to a drop out from high school or college, or otherwise caused problems for them.  One works for the U of Oregon, a few are in my hometown working BS jobs, some I have no idea what they are up to, and a few have 'normal' lives.

Of my friends that I smoked pot with that did not get arrested at some point one is a minister, several are in IT, one an MD, several lawyers, a couple teachers/coaches, one is a police officer (who has a degree in casino management from UNLV and I was SURE was going to run a mob casino), essentially normal careers.  None that I can think of have anything other than normal lives and most no longer smoke pot.  Many/most of my friends smoked pot and the disparity in how their lives have turned out reflects the general population.

Of my friends/acquaintances that have died (30 +/- five years old) 1 has died from emphysema (at 24!), 3 related to alcohol (2 result of drunk driving, 1 alcohol poisoning), 1 in a heroine overdose and 2 in suicides (one allegedly on barbiturates, the other was drunk).  I've never known or heard of anyone who was stoned and died as a result.  I've never seen a someone high on marijuana turn violent (unless they were doing other things at the same time). Perhaps that is luck, or a unique situation, but that is my experience.

I will defer to your experience that some people do become addicted to marijuana, that some people do become violent, and that it does carry health risks.  But given all of that, it stands as a less dangerous recreational drug than others that are acceptable.  I believe that adults should be able to decide what risks they are willing to accept and if they are able to smoke marijuana responsibly should be allowed to do so.

I'm interested to hear what procedures you think would help curtail the current problems that are caused by marijuana use (sub culture, unknown health risks [5% or 30% THC? laced?], juvenile access, gang/criminal violence and profits, and fiscal costs of enforcement/jail).

I really appreciate the intelligent conversation.  Most people are "advocates" and refuse to discuss it.  I value your experience and really want to know what steps you advocate and what type of decriminalize system you think might work or why it never would work.

[MH2010]

I would like to discuss this more but I hate typing lengthy opinions. One of these days, we can meet up and talk about this all you want. I enjoy the conversation about it but finding time to type it is tough.

[RecycleMichael]

Maybe you guys could meet on neutral territory...like the parking lot of Starship on Lewis.

[cannon_fodder]

There's a Phish concert in Dallas in the spring.  []

Come to one of the TulsaNow lunch meetings!  Rarely any pot smoking there.

[MH2010]

quote:Originally posted by RecycleMichael

Maybe you guys could meet on neutral territory...like the parking lot of Starship on Lewis.

I spend alot of time at starship.  I thought Phish was broken up?

[cannon_fodder]

Bah, maybe they are.  I thought they got back together.   String Cheese then?  Whoever the new hippie jam band is.  []

[bugo]

quote:Originally posted by MH2010

There is no use for smoking marijuana and does not compare to alcohol. Your premise that alcohol and marijuana are the same is wrong.

There is no "use" for drinking alcohol either.

And weed and alcohol are not the same, you're right about that.  Alcohol is much worse.

[tulsascoot]

Marijuana is not physically addictive. It is easier to quit than coffee.

Anyone who is against decriminalization should visit Amsterdam and see just how harmless pot is to the population at large. I have read that they actually have a lower usage by teens than we do. (Sorry I don;t have a source) So what we can do is just allow it, and control it, and you have no more criminals related to marijuana. Everyone wins.

[MH2010]

That's why the Dutch are considering scaling back the marijuana available in coffee shops from 5 grams to 3 grams.

Marijuana was so successful there that in 2001 the Dutch government established the Penal Care Facility for Addicts. Like American Drug Treatment Courts, the facility is designed to detain and treat addicts (of any drug) who repeatedly commit crimes and have failed voluntary treatment facilities. Offenders may be held in this facility for up to two years. During that time addicts will go through a three-phase program. The first phase focuses on detoxification, while the second and third phases focus on training for social reintegration.

People in Amsterdam also have a heroin problem that no one likes to talk about.