SPEED TRAPS IN TULSa

[TUalum0982]

quote:Originally posted by inteller

quote:Originally posted by TUalum0982

Originally posted by nathanm

Airport Rd.  When leaving the airport and coming up to the stoplight to get on 11E, they will sit in the Radisson parking lot.  I have watched them get over 20 cars in a matter of 45 minutes.  Usually 2 work this area because the "kids" that go to Spartan drive like they are still in HS and just got their license.

i did not know this, but I will say it is pretty scummy and being a bad host to stake out around airports and bust visitors (as well as locals).  I see them bust people out by DIA a lot when I'm in Denver and I think its poor form.

I agree it looks absurd to our out of town visitors...but the speed limit is 25mph around the airport, and you people constantly are doing 45+mph coming off hwy 11W.  I have a tendency to drive fast, but some of these people are taking it a little too far.

[TUalum0982]

quote:Originally posted by nathanm

quote:Originally posted by TUalum0982


Good Lord, I hope you never become a "leader" in our great city.  Your solution to people speeding is to narrow the roads? Narrow what roads? Do you know how many 2 lane roads we still have in this city that need to be widened?

"Speed Traps" might not work for some, but it will for others and it will make them more conscience of their overall speed in general.   But it's a natural reaction to slow down in areas you know the cops have targeted before, is it not?  

Good lord I hope you learn to think based on reason rather than emotion. There are studies on this subject. Look them up.

Nobody is talking about reducing lane count. Narrowing can take many forms. On arterials, allowing parallel parking in the right lane is a good one. Basically, if you restrict the lane width, people become less comfortable with driving at too high a speed.

Having pedestrians around also slows most drivers down.

You can already see this unintentionally in areas of town where the four lane arterials have very narrow lanes. Not many people are comfortable driving 45 in a 40 on them. Personally, I'm hardly comfortable driving 40 in traffic on those roads.

Then you see folks burning down Memorial south of 71st at 50 mph and faster, because the road is practically built like a highway.

Redesigning the road causes a permanent change in habit on that section of road. Speed traps have at best a transient effect on traffic speed.

We should be ticketing people for actual unsafe driving (tailgating, red light running, that sort of thing). There's no way to design a road to keep people from doing that. (aside from making sure stoplights are timed correctly to reduce red light violations..no short yellows..that sort of thing)

Go drive down lewis between 15th and 41st, and tell me your theory works or down Peoria between 61st and 51st.  Whats the old saying..don't do the crime, if you can't do the time?  If you can't afford or aren't willing to pay a speeding ticket, THEN DON'T SPEED!! It's as simple as that.  Last time I checked, we did not have speed limits posted at the bottom of hills for "hill only speed".

[nathanm]

quote:Originally posted by YoungTulsan

quote:Originally posted by nathanm

Then you see folks burning down Memorial south of 71st at 50 mph and faster, because the road is practically built like a highway.

It wasn't ALMOST built like a highway, it WAS a highway - US 64 until 169 down to the Creek loop was completed.  I don't remember if the speed limit was higher back then though, because it was still in a somewhat populated area.  It is 45 in some spots and 50 in some spots, so people going 50mph isn't exactly insane.

I think one of the main causes of speeding (aside from lack of self control, I know) is the bad traffic planning.  People try to make up for lost time when they get caught in poorly timed traffic lights, poorly designed flow, etc.

It's 40 for the first half mile south of 71st, then 45 until south of 101st. People regularly drive 55. (hence my '50 mph or faster')

More than anything, people speed because they always drive at whatever speed they feel comfortable driving at on a particular road. That's why speed limits are essentially useless at controlling speed for all but the boy scout contingent and enforcement has only a transient effect.

And red light cameras? They dramatically increase the incidence of rear end crashes at intersections so equipped because people slam on their brakes for the yellow so as to avoid any chance of still being in the intersection when the light goes red. The cure ends up being more dangerous than the problem it seeks to solve. Very few people have the intestinal fortitude to drive through a light so late that there's a significant danger of a crash. Of course, here in Tulsa there are many intersections where there is no delay between one direction turning red and the other turning green. That needs to be fixed. (I've seen a few where the green light activates so quickly it looks almost as if the green comes on a tenth of a second before the red)

A police officer, unlike a machine, is capable of judging whether someone continuing through a yellow light is doing so because it would have been unsafe to stop or because they are just one of those asses who can't be bothered to stop.

On the bright side, there doesn't seem to be all that much blatant red light running here in Tulsa. I'm still surprised when I see someone blow through a light several seconds after the light turned red.

There are other cities where that behavior doesn't surprise me at all.

[dbacks fan]

This is how most of the redlights are set up in the Phoenix area.This one is the intersection of Arizona Avenue and Warner Road in Chandler, AZ. The rectangle is the actual sensor for the camera and the two circles are the equipment. If you are in the intersection, passed the sensor, and the light turns from yellow to red  it will not record that as running a red light. If you go over the sensor after the light has turned red it records it as a violation and they send you a $245.00 ticket in the mail. The redlight cameras have been here so long that every one knows how to deal with them, but still the get people all the time usually not paying attention.

[nathanm]

quote:Originally posted by dbacks fan

If you are in the intersection, passed the sensor, and the light turns from yellow to red  it will not record that as running a red light.

While that is how the cameras actually function, that isn't how drivers react to them.

One study I came across in a quick search indicates that red light cameras reduce injury causing non-rear end crashes by about 15 percent, but increase injury causing rear end crashes by almost 25 percent.

Where they do create a beneficial effect is in the reduction in damage only crashes, but I personally am not OK with trading non injury crashes for injury crashes.

[Wilbur]

quote:Originally posted by dbacks fan

quote:Originally posted by sauerkraut

There is also a big speed trap on western parts of 71st. Meanwhile the crime rate skyrockets. I guess with the bad economy cities are hurting for money and they turn to speed traps. Many other cities are installing red light cameras and shorting the yellow light to catch more people and when a camera is installed the accident rate goes up at that intersection I understand.. Phoenix, AZ. has tons of Red-light cameras. The newest thing is getting to be speeding cameras, the state of Illinois is getting into that big time. The camera takes your picture and mails you a speeding ticket, and you get a surprise in the mail. I don't know if the camera's allow for any tolerance, but I heard stories that they give tickets if you go 2mph over the limit. Illnois had speed cameras on parts of I-74 in construction zones. I expect that speed cameras will find their way to more & more cities and states.

The redlight cameras I have no problem with. But the speed cameras I do have a issue with. This article also reveals that they stream live video around the clock. You will also see in the article that the State House of Reps. have passed a bill to have them removed.

Camera tickets of any kind are not permitted by Oklahoma law, except for the turnpikes, but the turnpikes are considered 'private roads' so not sure how they get to do that.

[Wilbur]

quote:Originally posted by TUalum0982

quote:Originally posted by Hoss

quote:Originally posted by Wilbur

Define 'speed trap'.

And since the police department has receive untold number of complaints about speeders in the area of 33rd and Irvington, and you obviously don't feel the police are needed there (even though plenty of speeding is going on there since plenty of tickets are being written), your response to these citizens who live on this street who call the police would be what?

Lets pick:

1.  Tough beans.
2.  Move.
3.  Got better things to do.
4.  Hope your kids don't get run over.

It's a residential street.  What kind of speed limit would you like?

I got a sure fired way of never getting a speeding ticket.  DON'T SPEED!  It's simple and saves lives.  What a concept!

And knowing what most officers give before they stop a speeder, I'll guarantee you most are at 40 or above.  And don't tell me you're getting tickets for 35.  The officer stopped you going faster but lowered the speed to 35 to keep the ticket off your driving record.  So, 40 through a residential is too slow.  You mean the speed limit on Riverside is too slow for that area.

EVERY speeding ticket goes on your driving record, regardless of if it's 2 miles over or 25.  The difference is that insurance companies get different kinds of driving records than other, say, trucking companies do.  So what a police officer is doing if he reduces it to 9 over the limit or less, is keeping your insurance company from seeing it on your record to keep your rates down, because they get restricted records.

Wrong, Wrong, Wrong.  I have received a few speeding tickets over the years and can tell you first hand, not all of them show up on your driving record.  If you don't believe me, the next time you get pulled over, have the officer pull up your driving record and compare it to your driving record the DMV can pull.  I can guarantee you, it will be differ.  The DMV only goes back 5 yrs and DOES NOT list every ticket in that 5 years.  I don't know the exact rules or parameters, but they are not all listed.  I don't know where you got your information from, but it is incorrect.

I'm sorry, but that is not right either.  Tickets DO NOT come off your driving record.  I have seen many a records go back into the 1970's.

And, you may call Municipal Court and they will tell you they DO NOT report speeding tickets within 10 mph over the speed limit (there are a few exceptions:  school zones, and anyone with a commercial driver license or driving a commercial vehicle, but that was a recent change).

If you get a speeding ticket within 10 miles per hour from a non-municipal police officer, those do not qualify for SP8 and DO go on your driving record.

[patric]

quote:Originally posted by TUalum0982

If you can't afford or aren't willing to pay a speeding ticket, THEN DON'T SPEED!! It's as simple as that.  Last time I checked, we did not have speed limits posted at the bottom of hills for "hill only speed".

Can you say that you have never caught yourself inadvertently over the speed limit?

Someday you will, and there will be someone or some thing strategically placed there to cash in on it.

[tulsascoot]

quote:
Go drive down lewis between 15th and 41st, and tell me your theory works or down Peoria between 61st and 51st.  Whats the old saying..don't do the crime, if you can't do the time?  If you can't afford or aren't willing to pay a speeding ticket, THEN DON'T SPEED!! It's as simple as that.  Last time I checked, we did not have speed limits posted at the bottom of hills for "hill only speed".

Ok, if you go too fast down those parts of Lewis or Peoria, you won't have to worry about Tickets because they will be far less than the bill from the alignment shop for repairing your suspension.

[TUalum0982]

quote:Originally posted by Wilbur

quote:Originally posted by TUalum0982

quote:Originally posted by Hoss

quote:Originally posted by Wilbur

Define 'speed trap'.

And since the police department has receive untold number of complaints about speeders in the area of 33rd and Irvington, and you obviously don't feel the police are needed there (even though plenty of speeding is going on there since plenty of tickets are being written), your response to these citizens who live on this street who call the police would be what?

Lets pick:

1.  Tough beans.
2.  Move.
3.  Got better things to do.
4.  Hope your kids don't get run over.

It's a residential street.  What kind of speed limit would you like?

I got a sure fired way of never getting a speeding ticket.  DON'T SPEED!  It's simple and saves lives.  What a concept!

And knowing what most officers give before they stop a speeder, I'll guarantee you most are at 40 or above.  And don't tell me you're getting tickets for 35.  The officer stopped you going faster but lowered the speed to 35 to keep the ticket off your driving record.  So, 40 through a residential is too slow.  You mean the speed limit on Riverside is too slow for that area.

EVERY speeding ticket goes on your driving record, regardless of if it's 2 miles over or 25.  The difference is that insurance companies get different kinds of driving records than other, say, trucking companies do.  So what a police officer is doing if he reduces it to 9 over the limit or less, is keeping your insurance company from seeing it on your record to keep your rates down, because they get restricted records.

Wrong, Wrong, Wrong.  I have received a few speeding tickets over the years and can tell you first hand, not all of them show up on your driving record.  If you don't believe me, the next time you get pulled over, have the officer pull up your driving record and compare it to your driving record the DMV can pull.  I can guarantee you, it will be differ.  The DMV only goes back 5 yrs and DOES NOT list every ticket in that 5 years.  I don't know the exact rules or parameters, but they are not all listed.  I don't know where you got your information from, but it is incorrect.

I'm sorry, but that is not right either.  Tickets DO NOT come off your driving record.  I have seen many a records go back into the 1970's.

And, you may call Municipal Court and they will tell you they DO NOT report speeding tickets within 10 mph over the speed limit (there are a few exceptions:  school zones, and anyone with a commercial driver license or driving a commercial vehicle, but that was a recent change).

If you get a speeding ticket within 10 miles per hour from a non-municipal police officer, those do not qualify for SP8 and DO go on your driving record.

Where did I say they come off your record? I didn't.  I simply said what any OHP or municipal police officer can pull up will differ from what your driving record will show from the Tag office.  I never said it will drop off, some things get reported while others don't.  I am agreeing with you here.

[deinstein]

On the BA right after the entrance to Highway 75 and before the exit to Detroit. They sit underneath the Peoria overpass like clockwork.

They also do this, to a lesser extent yet often, on 15th Street between Peoria Ave. and Boston Ave...which is why I take issue with it.

It's the same steep downward hill and adds about 10-15mph to your speed. Instead of posting more signs warning drivers of this (better policy, safer for drivers) they just set up speed traps.

I've never been pulled over here, but it's still stupid nonetheless.

[TUalum0982]

quote:Originally posted by patric

quote:Originally posted by TUalum0982

If you can't afford or aren't willing to pay a speeding ticket, THEN DON'T SPEED!! It's as simple as that.  Last time I checked, we did not have speed limits posted at the bottom of hills for "hill only speed".

Can you say that you have never caught yourself inadvertently over the speed limit?

Someday you will, and there will be someone or some thing strategically placed there to cash in on it.

No I sure can't.  But I can say I know where the cops hide out, and when I am in that area, I am more "alert" and watch my speed.  I have always had a lead foot, and tend to drive fast wherever I go.

[Hoss]

quote:Originally posted by TUalum0982

quote:Originally posted by Hoss

quote:Originally posted by Wilbur

Define 'speed trap'.

And since the police department has receive untold number of complaints about speeders in the area of 33rd and Irvington, and you obviously don't feel the police are needed there (even though plenty of speeding is going on there since plenty of tickets are being written), your response to these citizens who live on this street who call the police would be what?

Lets pick:

1.  Tough beans.
2.  Move.
3.  Got better things to do.
4.  Hope your kids don't get run over.

It's a residential street.  What kind of speed limit would you like?

I got a sure fired way of never getting a speeding ticket.  DON'T SPEED!  It's simple and saves lives.  What a concept!

And knowing what most officers give before they stop a speeder, I'll guarantee you most are at 40 or above.  And don't tell me you're getting tickets for 35.  The officer stopped you going faster but lowered the speed to 35 to keep the ticket off your driving record.  So, 40 through a residential is too slow.  You mean the speed limit on Riverside is too slow for that area.

EVERY speeding ticket goes on your driving record, regardless of if it's 2 miles over or 25.  The difference is that insurance companies get different kinds of driving records than other, say, trucking companies do.  So what a police officer is doing if he reduces it to 9 over the limit or less, is keeping your insurance company from seeing it on your record to keep your rates down, because they get restricted records.

Wrong, Wrong, Wrong.  I have received a few speeding tickets over the years and can tell you first hand, not all of them show up on your driving record.  If you don't believe me, the next time you get pulled over, have the officer pull up your driving record and compare it to your driving record the DMV can pull.  I can guarantee you, it will be differ.  The DMV only goes back 5 yrs and DOES NOT list every ticket in that 5 years.  I don't know the exact rules or parameters, but they are not all listed.  I don't know where you got your information from, but it is incorrect.

I got my information from working for a company that provides MVRs to trucking companies, insurance companies.  I believe I know what I'm talking about here, because I worked for this company for about 5 years.

What you get from the state DMV is every ticket you've ever had.  What law enforcement gets about you may or may not be the same, but I will tell you they see everything else as well, as opposed to insurance companies who will typically get scrubbed records (any speeding ticket less the 10 miles over, non moving violations, fixit tickets, etc).

[Hawkins]

quote:Originally posted by sauerkraut

There is also a big speed trap on western parts of 71st. Meanwhile the crime rate skyrockets. I guess with the bad economy cities are hurting for money and they turn to speed traps.

That's a good point.

I wonder if the TPD ever thought of using those unmarked police cruisers as parking lot patrol cars to search for the thugs who break out car windows during the the Christmas shopping season.

I'm sure they didn't...

And those motorcycle units... are they hiding behind bushes trying to catch shoplifters or thieves breaking into cars?? Ha!!

No.

Motorcycle cops are driving enforcement fetish freaks until the day they retire.

They are collection agents. Nothing more.

[Wilbur]

I'll post these numbers again.

Police enforce traffic violations because:

People murdered in the US each year = 17,000.

People killed in traffic collisions each year = 43,000.

The costs of traffic collisions (damage to property, medical) = more then all crimes combined 10 fold.

The insurance on your $10,000 car is more then the insurance on your $100,000 house.