re: City Corruption and PAC money

[waterboy]

Oh, great spin master, you must have missed this fine print right under the headline:

Published: 5/29/2008  2:07 AM
Last Modified: 5/29/2008  2:07 AM


That proposal was made a full six months before the economic collapse.

I'm guessing her opposition to the final proposal at the state level was post economic collapse...and thats why you didn't make note of it.

You seem to have a lot in common with her.[]

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by Double A

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

quote:Originally posted by DowntownNow

Well she can find $7.1 million to pay out to BOK for the Great Plains Airlines fiasco when the City wasnt even a part of the lawsuit and should never have been, but that's another debate, so let's make this simple.

The City Council was recently told that there was approximately $135.2 million in unspent sales-tax and bond-package funds dating as far back as 1991.  While some of that money may have specific criteria for its expenditure and must be redirected using approved ordinances, some are unappropriated funds that could be used for such services if I understand this correctly.

Oh. You're one of those guys. Hold a grudge long do you? She won.

I like simplicity. If the council goes along with the full audit plan and the source of funding is legal, then she should sign on and make it happen. But lets be team players. If its not 100% agreement on the council then ...not. She's not the coach, merely one of the players. The same stalemate is happening at the congressional level. Some folks sit around and wait until controversial legislation is sure to be approved, then vote against it so they can use their negative vote in the next campaign. If the legislation proves to be effective then they take that credit too.

Kinda like Taylor the Tyrant pushing annual municipal utility rate increases for the next five years and then going before the Corporation Commission to oppose the utility rate increases requested by AEP/PSO expressing concerns that "We must be mindful and protective about cost increases during this time, particularly for those families that we're seeing falling out of the safety net, lower income families and senior citizens." What a hypocrite.

Not really hypocritical when you consider that AEP/PSO is a for profit corporation and the city is out all costs for water and sewage operations.  It's a for-profit, publicly-traded monopoly vs. a municipal-owned system.  

Apple/orange.

I don't like the rate hikes either, but there's really no fair comparison if you consider the city fronts all overhead on municipal utilities and they have to break even, either via direct billing or some sort of tax assessment.  One way or the other, you will pay for the increase.  Rate increases are a more transparent way of doing it.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by DowntownNow

Waterboy - What she stands to gain is some credibility in the minds of the public that she is moving to do the right thing, particularly in light of the fact that some fraud has already been found in the Public Works Department - one division mind you.  To order an audit says to the general public that
"I hear your concerns, I share them and to prove that we are on top of it and no other funny business is going on (especially since the Public Works Depts own officials are balking at an independent audit) we are going to conduct a thorough one of all departments to show we mean business that corruption and misuse of tax payers dollard will not be tolerated."  Truth in transparency.

What does she have to lose?  Face if an independent performance audit finds that there is further corruption within the PWD?  Not that hard choices and swift action should not already be occurring with what has been found already (firing department heads, etc) but finding further fraud and ending it would be seen as a huge gain in her favor.  If the audit finds nothing, she can rest easy in the fact that she did all she could to find anything amiss and the public will give more confidence.

I hold Mayor Taylor as accountable as former Mayors: LaFortune, Savage, Randall, Crawford,  Young, Inhofe, LaFortune, etc. ad nauseum.  Public Works has been a rogue department for decades and allowed to pretty well run amok.

I'll be interested to see if she makes over-hauling PW one of her top priorities.  Hardt's departure from city government is long-overdue.

[shadows]

Here we go again.  Like the Rabbit in the Wizard of OZ, "lets have a party."
There was a grand jury called to investigate the Public Works.  The woman that got 5,000 signatures was not allowed to present her evidence to the grand jury.  Only the city legal department was allowed to present evidence to the jury which was secluded.  The Jury report was to have an outside audit made.  It was never made because the information was not turned over to the city auditors department.  PW never got the time to put it together for a private audit.

Few can remember when the core samples were taken of the federal funded expressway and the results found.  This has been happening for years but as Tulsa is referred to as "Gods little acreage known as the State of Tulsa" and it has been going on for years.  

[Double A]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

Oh, great spin master, you must have missed this fine print right under the headline:

Published: 5/29/2008  2:07 AM
Last Modified: 5/29/2008  2:07 AM


That proposal was made a full six months before the economic collapse.

I'm guessing her opposition to the final proposal at the state level was post economic collapse...and thats why you didn't make note of it.

You seem to have a lot in common with her.[]

The economy was tanking then. Waterbuoy, the floater on the river denial.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by Double A

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

Oh, great spin master, you must have missed this fine print right under the headline:

Published: 5/29/2008  2:07 AM
Last Modified: 5/29/2008  2:07 AM


That proposal was made a full six months before the economic collapse.

I'm guessing her opposition to the final proposal at the state level was post economic collapse...and thats why you didn't make note of it.

You seem to have a lot in common with her.[]

The economy was tanking then. Waterbuoy, the floater on the river denial.

Hey, no one in Tulsa or Oklahoma thought we were tanking then. I argued with real estate folks and Wilbur about it early last year on these threads. In fact many people still think OK is escaping the pain. Now that's real denial. "Floater"...that's good. In 'Nam, floaters were dead bodies in the river. Not there yet.

Conan and Shadows are closer to the truth. PW is long overdue for auditing and every mayor since I was a child knew it. Something keeps it from happening. Maybe "We can't handle the truth!"

I have heard allegations for years that it costs more to do business here than it should because of all the hands reaching out for "grease" money. It was common in the building trades, I hear it is common in road construction and in the bidding process. State and local. Is it our heritage?

[waterboy]

Yeah, we need more of that kind of stuff in Tulsa. Chaos, venemous politics and vendettas do wonders for a city's bond ratings and curb appeal. "Come do business in Tulsa...we'd love to sue ya!"

We're like a remake of a Marx Bros movie.

[Double A]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

quote:Originally posted by Double A

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

quote:Originally posted by DowntownNow

Well she can find $7.1 million to pay out to BOK for the Great Plains Airlines fiasco when the City wasnt even a part of the lawsuit and should never have been, but that's another debate, so let's make this simple.

The City Council was recently told that there was approximately $135.2 million in unspent sales-tax and bond-package funds dating as far back as 1991.  While some of that money may have specific criteria for its expenditure and must be redirected using approved ordinances, some are unappropriated funds that could be used for such services if I understand this correctly.

Oh. You're one of those guys. Hold a grudge long do you? She won.

I like simplicity. If the council goes along with the full audit plan and the source of funding is legal, then she should sign on and make it happen. But lets be team players. If its not 100% agreement on the council then ...not. She's not the coach, merely one of the players. The same stalemate is happening at the congressional level. Some folks sit around and wait until controversial legislation is sure to be approved, then vote against it so they can use their negative vote in the next campaign. If the legislation proves to be effective then they take that credit too.

Kinda like Taylor the Tyrant pushing annual municipal utility rate increases for the next five years and then going before the Corporation Commission to oppose the utility rate increases requested by AEP/PSO expressing concerns that "We must be mindful and protective about cost increases during this time, particularly for those families that we're seeing falling out of the safety net, lower income families and senior citizens." What a hypocrite.

Not really hypocritical when you consider that AEP/PSO is a for profit corporation and the city is out all costs for water and sewage operations.  It's a for-profit, publicly-traded monopoly vs. a municipal-owned system.  

Apple/orange.

I don't like the rate hikes either, but there's really no fair comparison if you consider the city fronts all overhead on municipal utilities and they have to break even, either via direct billing or some sort of tax assessment.  One way or the other, you will pay for the increase.  Rate increases are a more transparent way of doing it.

Especially when they follow two years of  annual rate increases, which is exactly what Taylor the Tyrant demanded and got approved in her last two budgets (2006/2007- 2007/2008).

At least AEP/PSO lowered their fuel cost charges on customers' bills when fuel prices went down. Taylor the Tyrant sure as hell hasn't passed those fuel cost savings on to city customers, instead she sought to raise rates annually till 2012.

Apples and oranges, indeed.

One way or another? Well, the rate increases might be more a transparent way of doing it, if they weren't being used to subsidize suburban water service.

[inteller]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

Yeah, we need more of that kind of stuff in Tulsa. Chaos, venemous politics and vendettas do wonders for a city's bond ratings and curb appeal. "Come do business in Tulsa...we'd love to sue ya!"

We're like a remake of a Marx Bros movie.

its called a qui tam taxpayer suit and it's what happens when someone mishandles taxpayer money.

If anything if I were a business I would WANT to do business in a city where officials are kept in check.

If taylor loses this will come directly out of her pocket, not the city.  A loss of a qui tam is an automatic penalty of 3x the amount in question.

So Taylor will have to cough up 21.3 mill....a hefty sum even for her.

[waterboy]

Otherwise known as crank politics. It makes the city look bad, makes honest people avoid running for office and only serves to reinforce our reputation as a community set off against itself. We spend our capital recalling councillors, harassing mayors, castrating our media and suing each other as though thats progress.

I would like to see some example of how that toxic brew has attracted business cause it doesn't seem to be working here.

[DowntownNow]

Waterboy, I can say with utmost certainty that many builders/developers don't want to work with the City or are apprehensive because the City hasn't wanted to work with them.  For years my friends in the field have told me story after story about how difficult the City makes it for them to pass plans, get permitting, acquire much needed help in the form of tax incentives, abatements and TIF funds, etc.  (Unless of course you're part of the system...anyone see how fast they started working on that ballpark?  Before the ink dried on the Council OK for bonds and it takes 3-4 weeks to get a single family residential house permit) Tulsa has a reputation for not being builder/developer friendly already.  When a scandal such as this hits, it not only rocks the foundation of trust by the citizens, it looks bad to outside developers too.  Taking action to see that it isn't still happening or that it wont happen again goes along way to re-establishing that trust for all parties.

Earlier you asked how much money are we talking.  For the independent performance audit of Public Works, Bynum has stated that they had located a firm out of Texas that had a price I believe of $221,000 to perform.  Now he is stating that in order to be transparent and fair to the citizens, any audit should have an RFP process attached so that many could reply and one be chosen.  I firmly applaud that idea because citizens could then ask for the explaination of how that RFP process chose its auditor and its a part of the public record.

Furthermore, what you call mayoral harrassment and the actions to recall councilors and such; thats a part of the democratic process that we get to enjoy in this country as citizens.  It allows people to have a voice if, for instance, they feel their elected representatives are not paying attention or abidding by the will of those they were elected to serve.  

Questioning and wanting answers and actions are what founded and continue to promote American democracy.  If we didn't question the King's rule we would still be a British colony...luckily a few did choose to question and both you and I get to enjoy that freedom to so do today.  In my hmble opinion and being one of the younger Tulsa crowd that wants to see this city grow, I say it looks for more progressive and inviting when someone can step forward and be able to ask for accountability in government...but thats just me.

[waterboy]

Yeah, well thanks for the lecture on civics. Throw in some pragmatism and I'll take notes next time.

I'm still waiting for some real life example of a city that spends lots of time devouring itself and yet still looks inviting to outside businesses. Its not happening here. We have an unhealthy competition here of at least five little bergs, downtown vs burbs, insiders vs entrepreneurs, oily vs working class, trust fund vs day to day, professional vs non, religious vs non and religious vs religious. Probably forgot a lot more like conservative vs not, dem vs repub etc. Like I said, its Woody Allen does the Marx Bros.

I will say you had me fooled for a little while. Until you focussed your wrath on the current mayor and somehow forgave the last four decades of executive and council-commissioner leadership. Audit the whole city and county, get rid of the mayor and watch with dismay as the whole group reassembles themselves like Cyborgs from the Terminator.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

Yeah, well thanks for the lecture on civics. Throw in some pragmatism and I'll take notes next time.

I'm still waiting for some real life example of a city that spends lots of time devouring itself and yet still looks inviting to outside businesses. Its not happening here. We have an unhealthy competition here of at least five little bergs, downtown vs burbs, insiders vs entrepreneurs, oily vs working class, trust fund vs day to day, professional vs non, religious vs non and religious vs religious. Probably forgot a lot more like conservative vs not, dem vs repub etc. Like I said, its Woody Allen does the Marx Bros.

You forgot, Socs vs. Greasers, Waterboys vs. Conans. []

You and RM, probably more than anyone, know that Mayor Taylor doesn't get a free pass from me.  But, as you are saying, you cannot impugn her without impugning every other mayoral administration of the last 40-some years.

So far, you seem to be the only other poster here who is as familiar with the long pattern of corruption as I am.  It's almost as if some people think this all STARTED in the last few years... hardly.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

Yeah, well thanks for the lecture on civics. Throw in some pragmatism and I'll take notes next time.

I'm still waiting for some real life example of a city that spends lots of time devouring itself and yet still looks inviting to outside businesses. Its not happening here. We have an unhealthy competition here of at least five little bergs, downtown vs burbs, insiders vs entrepreneurs, oily vs working class, trust fund vs day to day, professional vs non, religious vs non and religious vs religious. Probably forgot a lot more like conservative vs not, dem vs repub etc. Like I said, its Woody Allen does the Marx Bros.

You forgot, Socs vs. Greasers, Waterboys vs. Conans. []

You and RM, probably more than anyone, know that Mayor Taylor doesn't get a free pass from me.  But, as you are saying, you cannot impugn her without impugning every other mayoral administration of the last 40-some years.

So far, you seem to be the only other poster here who is as familiar with the long pattern of corruption as I am.  It's almost as if some people think this all STARTED in the last few years... hardly.

You're alright in my books Conan because you make your views passionately and with reason yet listen to others. You play hard but consistently. I disagree with some major points but we come from different backgrounds so we had to arrive at different places. I enjoy people who have done stuff, put themselves at risk, take calculated chances and learn from their humbling moments. BTW, met Beryl Ford last week. He definitely is one of those.

My father spoke of a builder he worked for who would slip large bills in between permit application forms. He always got his permits expedited, kept his crews working and built some fine homes and apartments. He also was a crook who used inside information to build cheap hotels where eventually, (mock)surprisingly a state highway would later be scheduled to pass through. He garnered several times the value of his property from the state for his keen insights. That was the 1950's-60's. It was one of Tulsa's greatest growth periods outside of the twenties.

Now, I don't condone that behavior, simply making note.

[DowntownNow]

Waterboy - Sorry to disappoint you again with facts but as I'm sure you know, I already replied in the other "corruption" thread (where you have posted as well) that this has been going on for years and I already placed blame on previous administrations for not doing anything.  I haven't forgiven anything from the past but what can you do about it today?  

The simple fact of the matter is, it is now Taylor's administration that has the ball and her failure to do anything with regards to the numerous audit requests.  It's her adminstration in place when proof of fraud and such have come to light from a third party.  I'm focusing my disapproval with her handling of the situation since she is the one in office and can and should effect change.  

In politics it's common to be handed over the problems from your predecessor, look at the new President - economy, wars, foreign policy, etc.  It's how you choose to walk in the first day and start handling them.  Just because someone else started the ball rolling or turned a blind eye doesn't mean your hands are clean or you get a pass because you're the new name on the door.  This issue has been raised time and time again, most recently during the Street's campaign where Tayklor said she listened to the concerns of the citizens...must not have listened too hard, and must be deaf if you've had a City Councilor in your ear since April 08 asking and helping you formulate a plan for an audit.  Now I know things move slow in government but wow...but 9 mos to order an audit?  That's just laughable.

I don't care for the devisivness anymore than you or how we are being perceived by outsiders.  I dont want Tulsa to become the next Chicago, but I believe there is a rising tide that people are fed up with not being paid attention to by our elected officials.  If we don't bother to question the status quo then we have no room to gripe or hope for better.

I'm right there with Conan too...yes, let's impugn the last 40 years of Tulsa politics but what good does that do today?  How are you going to hold those that are out of office accountable now?  

Was there a problem before? Yes.  Is there a problem today? Yes.  Is anything going to change if we raise our voice?  Hopefully.