Separation between church and state

[TURobY]

quote:Originally posted by MichaelWayne_71

quote:Originally posted by nathanm

While I'd rather not have to vote at a church, I don't have a big problem with it. There aren't a lot of other options, really..at least not that wouldn't make voting more inconvenient.

A church is just a building.

With pictures of Jesus and a cross around every corner waiting to jump out and scare you...

[Townsend]

quote:Originally posted by TURobY

quote:Originally posted by MichaelWayne_71



A church is just a building.

With pictures of Jesus and a cross around every corner waiting to jump out and scare you...

They get me every danged time.

[Ibanez]

quote:Originally posted by TURobY

quote:Originally posted by MichaelWayne_71

quote:Originally posted by nathanm

While I'd rather not have to vote at a church, I don't have a big problem with it. There aren't a lot of other options, really..at least not that wouldn't make voting more inconvenient.

A church is just a building.

With pictures of Jesus and a cross around every corner waiting to jump out and scare you...

Sounds like CFS back in the day...only substitute Bartman for Jesus.

[Fatstrat]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

quote:Originally posted by Fatstrat

Read George Washington's Farewell Address and then tell me our founding fathers didn't intend this to be a Christian nation
avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/washing.asp

Funny, the 'proof' that he is a good Christian man wanting a Christian nation makes no mention of Jesus.  For that matter, it never uses the word God.  He certainly talks about how a religious belief is important to his morality,

The next paragraph spends a greater amount of time talking about the importance of allowing the government to spend on "public credit." Which is followed by how we should get along with every other country but wars "might be occasioned" (actually the next 7 paragrphs talk about foreign affairs).  One would think a Christian Nation might use the name of God, or at least reference CHRIST in the address... or perhaps afford more than 5 sentences to the notion of vague morality.  (keep in mind you cited to the actual version, not the "updated version" that ends with a salutation to Jesus).

The paragraph you allude to could be written by any religious person.  A Muslim, Jew, Zorrostrian, Scientologist, Mormon - it doesn't even specify a single God so it could be Hindu, Seikh, Aboriginal.  Nor does it even specify a creator so it could be Shintoist, Buddhist,  Wikkan or a host of pagan religions.  6 references to Religion or Morality, two dozen to reason, knowledge, and understanding.

Please go get a biography of the man, read it, and then try to tell me he was a devote Christian who wanted to found a Christian nation.  Look up most of the "big name" founders and make the same claim.  Washington was a standout religious man compared to most of them, and he had plenty of public things to say that are against religion:

quote:Let us with caution indulge the supposition, that morality can be maintained without religions.
- From his Farewell Address

quote:There is nothing which can better deserve our patronage than the promotion of science and literature. Knowledge is in every country the surest basis of public happiness.
   George Washington, address to Congress, 8 January, 1790

quote:Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be deprecated.

quote:Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than thsoe which spring from any other cause. [George Washington, letter to Sir Edward Newenham, June 22, 1792]

quote:...the path of true piety is so plain as to require but little political direction. [George Washington, 1789, responding to clergy complaints that the Constitution lacked mention of Jesus Christ, from The Godless Constitution: The Case Against Religious Correctness, Isacc Kramnick and R. Laurence Moore W.W. Norton and Company 101-102]

quote:I beg you be persuaded that no one would be more zealous than myself to establish effectual barriers against the horrors of spiritual tyranny, and every species of religious persecution. [George Washington, to United Baptists Churches of Virginia, May, 1789 from The Washington papers edited by Saul Padover]

quote:The blessed Religion revealed in the word of God will remain an eternal and awful monument to prove that the best Institutions may be abused by human depravity; and that they may even, in some instances, be made subservient to the vilest of purposes.

quote:To give opinions unsupported by reasons would be dogmatical. [George Washington, to Alexander Spotswood, November 22, 1798, from The Washington papers edited by Saul Padover]

He favored reason over dogma (by definition not religious).

He didn't believe in life after death.

Never refers to Jesus in a public speech.

Rarely attended church.

Refused to take communion (his wife did, he left early when he went and sent the carriage back for her).

In fact, very little, if any evidence would suggest Washington was the pious religious man you wish us to believe.  He had religious beliefs certainly, but there is no evidence that he was attempting to found, ever wanted, or would have maintained a Christian Nation.

Just for fun, go look up the religious beliefs of Ben Franklin, Madison, Jefferson, Ethan Allen or Thomas Paine.  Then come back and argue that they tried to setup a Christian Nation.  Or change your story to exclude them from have a significant role in the founding of our nation.  Pick one.  To make your argument you'll have to redraft history some how or other.  Think we can get religion in history class as well as science class?

quote:Guido wrote sick em CF.

And how.
- - -

and indeed, Welcome to Tulsa Now!

I hope all your quotes aren't taken as out of context as the 1st one (from farewell address).
Here is the same quote with the lines you omitted.
" Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are INDISPENSABLE SUPPORTS. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of human men and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and cherish them.
A volume could not trace all their connections with the private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked: Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation deserts the oaths which are the instruments of investigation in courts of justice?
And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle."
 As tempting as it is to base your argument on the taken out of context liberal talking points. You really should read the material for yourself. Especially before attempting to use it against someone who has refered  to it as one of their power points.  
Moreover, I believe that most reasonable people would find your theory that since Washington (as far as we know) never mentioned Jesus by name, meaning he was not a Christian, and was possibly a follower of some other religion, as laughable.
Washington was baptized in the Church of England in 1765. And was known to be an active member. The reports that he refused to take sacrament along side his wife, does not diminish the fact that he was present during the services. Which would certainly point to him being a of Christian belief.  

[TURobY]

quote:Originally posted by Fatstrat

Washington was baptized in the Church of England in 1765. And was known to be an active member. The reports that he refused to take sacrament along side his wife, does not diminish the fact that he was present during the services. Which would certainly point to him being a of Christian belief.  

I was baptized in an Assembly of God church and I attended service every Sunday, though I would never consider myself a Christian. I've attended services in a Jewish temple, though I would never consider myself a Jew.

[cannon_fodder]

The Washington quote is in no way out of context.  It implies that he thinks religion is important to morality.  The very position that you are taking, the quote speaks fondly of religion - I don't understand why of all the quotes given you would have an issue with that one.

quote:Let us with caution indulge the supposition, that morality can be maintained without religions.

More important than the single quote are the volumes written on the man by a flurry of biographers.  He was not a religious man.  The address given to PROVE he wanted a Christian nation never uses the word God and he never mentions Jesus in any of his writings or speeches.  

The same goes for the litany of men I mentioned.

quote:. . . out of context liberal talking points. You really should read the material for yourself.

Thanks, I read it.  I've read a biography of most of the men I cited.  Your new here but will find that I do not make a habit of talking about things I am not familiar with and when I am wrong I readily admit it.

I do not, however, recite "liberal talking points."  In fact, I believe this is the first time I have been accused of such.  It would seem I am reciting reality while those that wish to brand us a "Christian Nation" are holding to a particular ideology and talking points.

Why is it so hard to believe that most of the Founding Fathers would not identify themselves as Christians in today's world?  Of those that did, many would be doing so for political expedience.  I implore you to read up on the men and get a foundation for your understandings.  Go get a couple of biographies of Washington and see what firm beliefs were attributed to him.  Educate yourself on the topic then tell me WHY I'm wrong - I'd be happy to hear it.

quote:. . . never mentioned Jesus by name, meaning he was not a Christian, and was possibly a follower of some other religion, as laughable.

But if he did mention Jesus it would PROVE he was a God Fearing Christian Man who wanted  Christian Nation.  I wholeheartedly support the notion that Washington would have identified himself as a Christian if asked.  If, in the same breath, you asked him if he thought the Bible was the literal word of God or if he wanted to found a Christian Nation his answer to both would have been an eloquent but fervent no.

I too was baptized, attend church from time to time (as Washington did), I do not take communion, and I am not a Christian.  When I die someone may build a monument to me, on that monument that might put a cross or scripture passage - that doesn't mean I was a Christian.  Nor does it matter.  My argument was the man was not the ardent Fundamentalist that seems so important to so many people.

Pick another argument.  The one that the founding fathers were Fundamentalists who wanted to create a Christian Nation is a losing one.  I have no doubt revisionist history (American History for Christians, et. al) will keep trying, but biographers, historians, and the national archives will keep debunking.  Not too mention treaties, laws, and the constitution.

/ramble

[Fatstrat]

Your interpretation is again laughable. Washington doesn't say that religion is important to morality. He says that religion AND morality are INDISPENSABLE supports in the way of life in the new nation. Note he mentions both the politician and the pious man.
Let's just take what the man said at face value.
Furthermore, your bully tactics of suggesting I do research as a means to support YOUR arguments doesn't fly. If you have proof to prove your points,please have the courtesy to post them. As I have.
Your claims of knowledge mean nothing to me.
And as we have seen by by your attempts to  misconstrue Washington's words,modern biographers too often also have an ulterior agenda.

[rwarn17588]

Give it up, Fatstrat. I've been on this board a long time, and cannonfodder's a real smart guy.  And he's making the case much better than you are. (Not to mention you've made several assumptions that are outright wrong.)

Don't bring a knife to a gunfight, Fatstrat. And if you do, don't whine if you get plugged fulla holes.

Just sayin'.

[Fatstrat]

quote:Originally posted by rwarn17588

Give it up, Fatstrat. I've been on this board a long time, and cannonfodder's a real smart guy.  And he's making the case much better than you are. (Not to mention you've made several assumptions that are outright wrong.)

Don't bring a knife to a gunfight, Fatstrat. And if you do, don't whine if you get plugged fulla holes.

Just sayin'.

[] Now I'm skert.
Don't worry about me. I love a good challenge. Especially when the truth is on my side.
So uh, are you his toadie?
I'll make you the same offer I made him. Put up or shut up. It's one thing to proclaim that I've made wrong assumptions. Quite another to PROVE IT.
Anyone w/an IQ over 6 can read Washingtons address and see for themselves what it says. And it's you that are makng assumptions. I'm quoting him word for word.

[Hoss]

quote:Originally posted by Fatstrat

quote:Originally posted by rwarn17588

Give it up, Fatstrat. I've been on this board a long time, and cannonfodder's a real smart guy.  And he's making the case much better than you are. (Not to mention you've made several assumptions that are outright wrong.)

Don't bring a knife to a gunfight, Fatstrat. And if you do, don't whine if you get plugged fulla holes.

Just sayin'.

[] Now I'm skert.
Don't worry about me. I love a good challenge. Especially when the truth is on my side.
So uh, are you his toadie?
I'll make you the same offer I made him. Put up or shut up. It's one thing to proclaim that I've made wrong assumptions. Quite another to PROVE IT.
Anyone w/an IQ over 6 can read Washingtons address and see for themselves what it says. And it's you that are makng assumptions. I'm quoting him word for word.

The truth is on your side?  Did you ask Washington specifically what he meant?

Didn't think so.  You haven't proven your argument.  You're parsing Washington's words to align with your own beliefs.  I'm gonna have to side with CF on this one.

[Fatstrat]

Well isn't that weak? Since I haven't personally spoken to Washington, my arguement based on quoting his words at length is invalid.
Yet you supprt arguents based on misintepretations of small, taken out of context, snips his words.
Facts are facts. And it is clear that Washington believed that religious morality was an important aspect of the new nation he helped to found.
But, it is also true that our founding fathers believed in religious freedom. And therefore did not believe in a MANDATED Government religion as was in England.
Yet everything from our money, inscriptions on public buildings, the facts that the huge majority of elected representitives have historically been sworn in w/hand on a Bible. Points to the fact that the GOD refered to was the Christian God. That these people were Christians. And founded this nation based on Christian principle.
And that for over 200 years, few citizens had a problem w/it.
Now things are changing. And if you are one of the "peculiar minds" Washingon spoke about. You have every right to reject Christianity and attempt to influence THE FUTURE of the nation based on your religious, or lack of, belief.
All I'm saying is that you can not rewrite history.

[Hoss]

quote:Originally posted by Fatstrat

Well isn't that weak? Since I haven't personally spoken to Washington, my arguement based on quoting his words at length is invalid.
Yet you supprt arguents based on misintepretations of small, taken out of context, snips his words.
Facts are facts. And it is clear that Washington believed that religious morality was an important aspect of the new nation he helped to found.
But, it is also true that our founding fathers believed in religious freedom. And therefore did not believe in a MANDATED Government religion as was in England.
Yet everything from our money, inscriptions on public buildings, the facts that the huge majority of elected representitives have historically been sworn in w/hand on a Bible. Points to the fact that the GOD refered to was the Christian God. That these people were Christians. And founded this nation based on Christian principle.
And that for over 200 years, few citizens had a problem w/it.
Now things are changing. And if you are one of the "peculiar minds" Washingon spoke about. You have every right to reject Christianity and attempt to influence THE FUTURE of the nation based on your religious, or lack of, belief.
All I'm saying is that you can not rewrite history.

I was of the mind you were saying that the founders intended that this was to be a Christian nation?  I was asking if you talked to Washington directly to confirm.  How's that weak?  It's a valid point.  No one will know exactly how the founders, especially GW, intended on organized religion (which, IMO, is a sham) to be integrated into our government.

[rwarn17588]

Frankly, I don't see Christianity being relevant to good government.

How is Christianity going to guide you in creating a budget? Or drafting an appropriations bill?

You can believe what you want in private. But if a person is assigned to a certain role, I judge him/her by his skills and competence, not his/her church. The church thing is just not relevant.

[Fatstrat]

quote:Originally posted by Hoss

quote:Originally posted by Fatstrat

Well isn't that weak? Since I haven't personally spoken to Washington, my arguement based on quoting his words at length is invalid.
Yet you supprt arguents based on misintepretations of small, taken out of context, snips his words.
Facts are facts. And it is clear that Washington believed that religious morality was an important aspect of the new nation he helped to found.
But, it is also true that our founding fathers believed in religious freedom. And therefore did not believe in a MANDATED Government religion as was in England.
Yet everything from our money, inscriptions on public buildings, the facts that the huge majority of elected representitives have historically been sworn in w/hand on a Bible. Points to the fact that the GOD refered to was the Christian God. That these people were Christians. And founded this nation based on Christian principle.
And that for over 200 years, few citizens had a problem w/it.
Now things are changing. And if you are one of the "peculiar minds" Washingon spoke about. You have every right to reject Christianity and attempt to influence THE FUTURE of the nation based on your religious, or lack of, belief.
All I'm saying is that you can not rewrite history.

I was of the mind you were saying that the founders intended that this was to be a Christian nation?  I was asking if you talked to Washington directly to confirm.  How's that weak?  It's a valid point.  No one will know exactly how the founders, especially GW, intended on organized religion (which, IMO, is a sham) to be integrated into our government.

Wouldn't by the same measure, your agruement that the that they did not intend a Christian nation be equally invalid. I'm quite certain you have not personally spoken to Washington or any of the other founders either.  []
Therefore I can take satisfaction in a small victory.  
Or would you concede that we must make our determinations based on historical record. Which if you do, I will, armed w/historical fact, continue to shoot your arguement full of holes.

[Hoss]

quote:Originally posted by Fatstrat

quote:Originally posted by Hoss

quote:Originally posted by Fatstrat

Well isn't that weak? Since I haven't personally spoken to Washington, my arguement based on quoting his words at length is invalid.
Yet you supprt arguents based on misintepretations of small, taken out of context, snips his words.
Facts are facts. And it is clear that Washington believed that religious morality was an important aspect of the new nation he helped to found.
But, it is also true that our founding fathers believed in religious freedom. And therefore did not believe in a MANDATED Government religion as was in England.
Yet everything from our money, inscriptions on public buildings, the facts that the huge majority of elected representitives have historically been sworn in w/hand on a Bible. Points to the fact that the GOD refered to was the Christian God. That these people were Christians. And founded this nation based on Christian principle.
And that for over 200 years, few citizens had a problem w/it.
Now things are changing. And if you are one of the "peculiar minds" Washingon spoke about. You have every right to reject Christianity and attempt to influence THE FUTURE of the nation based on your religious, or lack of, belief.
All I'm saying is that you can not rewrite history.

I was of the mind you were saying that the founders intended that this was to be a Christian nation?  I was asking if you talked to Washington directly to confirm.  How's that weak?  It's a valid point.  No one will know exactly how the founders, especially GW, intended on organized religion (which, IMO, is a sham) to be integrated into our government.

Wouldn't by the same measure, your agruement that the that they did not intend a Christian nation be equally invalid. I'm quite certain you have not personally spoken to Washington or any of the other founders either.  []
Therefore I can take satisfaction in a small victory.  
Or would you concede that we must make our determinations based on historical record. Which if you do, I will, armed w/historical fact, continue to shoot your arguement full of holes.

Counter an argrument with an abstraction.  Brilliant.

If victory is saying what the founders meant in your own opinion, then you've won.  Last I checked, America wasn't a theocracy.

Saying that the USA was founded to be a Christian nation dispels the 'freedom of religion' argument.  So in that, I believe you've lost.  Unless of course Christianity is the only religion practiced in the USA.