re: Ethics complaint against 2 city councillors

[Neptune]

Hey, genius. The correct word is "affected". Funny how your name calling seems to be so impeccable while the rest of your post suffers.

Neither you, nor Dickwadicus, have a monopoly on "being nasty."  I don't care about spelling.  You don't know half of what this discussion is about.  You're in right-field picking dandelions.

With homes in that area averaging 40 to 50ft frontage, 300 ft means a 6-7 home radius. Moving eastward on thirteenth, that is mostly commercial and railroad. The southward radius includes almost entirely commercial and an expressway. Northward includes a few homes edged by commercial offices. The only real homes within that radius lie directly to the West and Northwest. So, very few homeowners seem to be directly AFFECTED by this decision or were included in the radius.

I drove past there again today. Its a losers argument.

If no one is directly affected by a development, what would your case be?  That they should do something different?  Seriously, that's your argument?  That would be a loser's argument.

If this were about some over-arching zoning issue, which pmcalk already says it is, I might concur.  But you can't do that on a development.  You have to sift through that BS preemptively.  You have to say, "this is what we want in our codes."  "This is how we want it to work in the future." 

You can't wait until the thing is on the verge of legally "ready to go," and then say "oops let's change the rules and get the whole damned city involved."  I guess technically you could say that, it just doesn't work.  Won't stop the bank from being built.

Limiting the scope of people against a project, makes sense.  TMAPC is not all-powerful, and it doesn't have an infinite amount of time to philosophize with every single person in town.  There's only so much they can do.  If this project involves some technical issue that has to be resolved with better zoning, that has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not this bank is built.  You can't change the rules in midstream, just because you think a bank should be built differently.

[Neptune]

Come on now, two of you punks jumped me for no particular reason.  Don't stop now while I'm ahead.

[waterboy]

Come on now, two of you punks jumped me for no particular reason.  Don't stop now while I'm ahead.

Actually, Neptune, I was replying to Dickwadicus, not you. I simply am not comfortable with this new version of TN software and couldn't find the reply with quote button. I actually agree with you and was criticizing his use of name calling instead of addressing issues. Affect and effect are often misused. I ain't perfect but repeated misuse of a word like AA did deserves a call out.

PM, yes it appears they got sideswiped, cold cocked, sucker punched..whatever works. You don't succeed in commercial real estate without knowing how to do that and not feel bad about it. Changing rules won't change that either. I made sure when I did respond to note that I am not familiar with the zoning procedural issues and feel badly for the way they were steamrollered.

However, I was merely responding to the reality of the location. Its a commercial location. The homes being torn down are not architecturally significant and are rentals. This councilor is a real estate veteran and this kind of response shouldn't come as a surprise. Thats all.

[Neptune]

Actually, Neptune, I was replying to Dickwadicus, not you.

My apologies.   




If it helps, I am the one that can't tell feet from yards. 

[waterboy]

My apologies.   




If it helps, I am the one that can't tell feet from yards. 

Water under the bridge. You seem to be a pretty renaissance type guy with knowledge tempered by wisdom but capable in a pissing match. You, and others like you around this forum, are important to the future of Tulsa. The young'uns are watching.

I just can't understand why so few points are responded to in these posts. If you spend the time to try and understand an issue and provide insights that are intended to help the conversation, you half expect to hear someone agree/disagree or point out inconsistencies. It obvious many folks here have the intellectual capacity to skewer each other mercilessly and are more intent on proving that prowess than conceding or even noting a point well made. Sometimes I enjoy the snark but when it replaces conversation its boring.

I'm not an insider, not a player.  Just a small town guy (here) that used to really love his little berg and is becoming disenchanted with its denizens as of late. The worst stuff for Tulsa is yet to come I'm afraid.

[Neptune]

You seem to be a pretty renaissance type guy with knowledge tempered by wisdom but capable in a pissing match.

You're making me blush.  Need to emphasize the "pissing match" part more, and possibly throw in the words "impetuous prick".   

I just can't understand why so few points are responded to in these posts.

I agree. 

I think some people come in with "group think" on a subject.  In local issues, that's easily the case.  People don't understand why something is happening, they think that it is somehow unfair, then they group up with other people who feel the same.  They head here to complain, people agree with them because big-bad-government scares them too.  It might even snowball into some giant thing where people are showing up at City Council meetings to claim victimization over something they didn't understand in the first place. 

"Group think" can be difficult or impossible to change.  Occasionally it can be stamped out.  It doesn't help at all if I can't keep the word "morons" from hitting the screen.  I play my part. 

And it probably doesn't help that 9/10ths of the time on local issues I end up being in auto-defense mode for the City of Tulsa.  One gets a rep that way.  Flipside:  Typically, whatever the city does, "it's not about me."  I can be hard to convince.

I'm not an insider, not a player.  Just a small town guy (here) that used to really love his little berg and is becoming disenchanted with its denizens as of late. The worst stuff for Tulsa is yet to come I'm afraid.

I hear ya.  I'm more frustrated than depressed.  Maybe that is next.

[waterboy]

Well said. Its easier to form a group and fight a supposed enemy than it is to learn why a process exists and modify it or manipulate it. Our computers and digital socializing have facilitated and quickened action without thought.

As a sort of postscript, I think we are losing faith. At least locally. The one thing I hold dear from my experience with religion is the role that deeply held faith has in well being. It frees you to be human and to determine your mission, then work towards it. Thats not as philosophically deep as it sounds. It is just a basic tenet of existence that you have to have before anything beyond yourself can be accomplished. Even Einstein could not have explored relativity without knowing someone, somewhere was covering the basics of making sure he had sustenance and safety.

Once you lose that faith, it is replaced by chaos, suspicion, avarice and confusion. Group think may be a symptom of that loss of faith.

[Neptune]

Belief/Faith versus Skepticism is an interesting subject to me.  It reminds me of something I actually blogged about not long ago.  Probably trying to work out some personal philosophical process on paper.

They both have "pitfalls".  Faith is a very basic principle, but it's omnipresent.  All people have Faith, of one type or another.  With the city it could be Faith that the city works the way it's supposed to; or Faith that the city is somehow "good"; or Faith that the city is somehow "evil".  For everyone, it's probably a combination of the three.  And that Faith naturally leads to certain "actions" or "inactions".

Skepticism acts toward altering a "belief."  Changing the course of "Faith".  One might have Faith that the city is "all good" or "all evil".  Then something happens, and that person becomes Skeptical of that belief; or that person ignores the new information and "keeps the Faith."  Skepticism doesn't cause "action", it just alters the course of "Faith" thereby altering the course of "action" or "inaction." 

Skepticism is a tool, Faith is the prime driver of "action".  Skepticism without Faith is worthless.  If everyone were Skeptics all the time, literally nothing would be done.  Faith without Skepticism can lead to "wrong"-action.  There are plenty of example of that.

[waterboy]

Your thoughts represent the mechanics of faith and skepticism. I particularly like the idea that faith without skepticism is as useless as the opposite. Thats hard for people to swallow in a strongly fundamental region. Perhaps "losing faith" is the wrong terminology.

My faith in the city of Tulsa has been twofold. On the one hand I have had faith in its operations. I draw no judgements as to its evil or good nature as it is more difficult to ascribe a personality when leadership is temporary. Some leaders have been lazy, self serving, myopic elitists. Others have been mere functionaries, oblivious to the nature of leadership. A scale of effectiveness in leadership might range from the elder LaFortune and Taylor on one end to Crawford on the other end. In spite of them the city has continued to hit on enough cylinders to move along nicely. Mostly, I have had faith that the city's employees and leaders were doing their jobs with the same committment, integrity, and knowledge that I perceive myself to possess. As of late I am more skeptical of that faith. I have less faith that the county is doing the same, due to some personal experience over the years, therefore less skepticism of their operations. They are in balance to me.

On the other hand, I have had faith that in spite of its reputation for fundamentalism and ultra-conservative politics, that the people here were basically fair minded, forgiving, sociable and accomodating of different views of life. Accepting of different types of people. I seriously doubt that now. I speak to people of all walks every day. I am blessed with an aura that allows people to speak to me as though I am their confessional. Whatever their perspective, everyone seems to think I am just like them. Weird, but I deal with it. Turns out, this is a very monolithic, "my way or the highway" kind of city now. Cruel, inflexible and capable of terrible things.  

My skepticism has led to a very cynical outlook for the city. The bottom line is that our region is segregated by income/wealth and education. Ghettos of each insulate themselves from the villagers who, by and large, are infected with Bible era intolerance. Each side is skeptical and critical of the other. The Tulsa World comments sections represent this pretty accurately. I think we're pretty screwed.

[Neptune]

My skepticism has led to a very cynical outlook for the city. The bottom line is that our region is segregated by income/wealth and education. Ghettos of each insulate themselves from the villagers who, by and large, are infected with Bible era intolerance. Each side is skeptical and critical of the other. The Tulsa World comments sections represent this pretty accurately. I think we're pretty screwed.

Every time someone mentions the TW comments section I get a case of the chuckles.  It's terrible, there are few rays of light in there, but it's generally rough.  I still find it slightly comical I guess.  The TW article could be about something absolutely mundane, but someone is going berserk over it.

I think Tulsa, in ways, is a "great lie" we like to tell ourselves.  Tulsa is built way beyond itself as far as museums, homes, even downtown.  Tulsa has "great" things.  Downtown (even though half of it is surface parking) was designed to be the downtown of a very large important city.  It's 1.4 square miles; that's huge for a metro of less than a million.  And parts of our downtown represent much larger cities.  We have half surface parking, but we also have the 4 largest buildings in the state (3 downtown), and a downtown that at least in height terms would put some much larger cities to shame.

Tulsa has a fantastic base to work with.  I mean that very literally.  We have plenty of "urban gems."  However, nothing about our evolution as a city was natural.  It was all built on oil wealth, sometimes more wealth than other times.  It was built by philanthropists and major oil companies.  Our city became "grand" because of oil.  We didn't just "grow" into a city this size, we were forced into a city this size. 

Generally speaking; People didn't come to Tulsa for the purpose of being in an "urban environment."  People came here for opportunity, and they brought their churches and everything else with them.  If it weren't for oil, they'd probably live in rural areas.

I think what that means is; we're far less urban than we're inclined to believe.  We're some kind of Frontier/Urban hybrid.  On the one hand, we have lots of great things.  Things that great cities would envy.  On the other hand, we're also loaded with some people who have never appreciated what we have, and were never inclined to make the city a better place (beyond whatever concepts they brought to this city).

Then you couple all that with watered-down density, rapid expansion, the suburbanization, and ingrained segregation of the city;  It will take a very long time for that 1.4 square miles of downtown to be fully used.  The problem isn't the urban folk; they want it.  The problem is, a very large number (if not the vast majority) couldn't care less.  They're more interested in being close to jobs, schools, and housing (and staying away from crime) than urban issues.  This town is fairly comfortable with being relatively xenophobic; many do not care for being "more urban."

It's frustrating, and if I think about it too much, it's depressing.  If I were to say I've never thought about leaving this town on principle, I'd be lying.  When leaving seems selfish and staying seems charitable; what do you do?   We can all sit around and hold hands and say it's all untrue. We can say that they just need a little more "learnin".  The only thing that beats that is lots and lots of time, and a ton of work.  I think there will always be an undercurrent around Tulsa that says "this town is behind the times."

The "shell" of the city is great.  We do have to learn how to be a city.

[RecycleMichael]

I am blessed with an aura that allows people to speak to me as though I am their confessional. Whatever their perspective, everyone seems to think I am just like them.

Forgive me waterboy...for I have suburbed.

I don't think you are just like me. You are way nicer.

[waterboy]

Forgive me waterboy...for I have suburbed.

I don't think you are just like me. You are way nicer.

Forgiven. Suburbia can be cured with enough tax increases. I guess I sounded sort of narcissistic there didn't I?  Well, I'm going with it. Its just that my whole life strangers have confided in me things as though we were long time friends and agreed on everything. I listen, smile, nod my head and try to find common ground. Often, those with mental problems seek me out of a group and gleefully converse. Way out of synch with consensus thinking. That's why networking has never been successful for me. Those I want to know find something kind of strange about me. The others relate to that strangeness! I feel like I'm in a TV sitcom most days. An animated one.

Nep, you nailed the description of our shell city, its origins and its personality quirks. Insightful. Why couldn't you have tipped me off 30 years ago?  Not that I would have listened.