Group Homes - Zoning Change (& lawsuits?)

[PonderInc]

Not sure if you've heard any of the recent stink about new restrictions on group homes.  I'm not totally informed on this issue, but I've tried to read the proposed zoning amendment, and understand the issue.

It seems that one particular neighborhood near 71st and Lewis has an abundance of group homes.  In this case, the neighbors are complaining about parking issues.

In typical "over-reaction" mode, a task force has proposed amendments to the zoning code.  The result, I think, will have unforeseen consequences, which may include lawsuits based on Fair Housing laws.

One thing I noticed offhand is that any "neighborhood or community group home" (that will house more than 4 total people unrelated by birth, marriage, adoption, etc) will have to get a special exception to exist in a RE, RS, or RD district.

Currently, I believe they can be there by right, in a house with up to 8 total people.  If this change takes place, imagine the uproar in neighborhoods that would previously have been oblivious to the existence of group homes in their midst!  Now, every home will cause a fight.

The other issue I question is the spacing guidelines.  I understand that you wouldn't want your neighborhood "overrun" with group homes.  But the proposed spacing seems overly draconian and arbitrary: 1/2 mile between group homes.  

These homes provide safety, healing, and needed services for the elderly, people overcoming addiction problems, abused women and children, people living with HIV, and those who need additional help to live independently.  These are not evil people to be shunned from our society.

I currently live down the street from a home in which several elderly people live together.  No problem.  I used to live three doors down from a women's shelter...they were so discrete, I didn't realize this for two years.  I have a friend who is in his eleventh month of sobriety, who lives in a group home in south Tulsa with several other people who help each other stay clean.  (They all have jobs, attend AA, and take regular drug tests to prove it.)

I don't get this zoning proposal.  If anyone has more info, please share.

Here's a Tulsa World Article which includes a link to the proposed zoning changes.

[sgrizzle]

Existing thread:
http://tulsanow.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12766

[Neptune]

This is on another thread, but I'm still waiting on someone to explain it to me too.

Things I'm finding odd:

See 1202b and 1202c
http://www.incog.org/City%20of%20Tulsa%20Zoning%20Code/CH_12.htm#SECTION___1202._

The 1/2 mile restriction, may already technically apply to most "group homes".  The most glaring exception being, ironically, "group homes" for the disabled.  The proposed change seems to be targeted at bring "group homes" for the disabled, in line with all other "group homes".

And I say "ironically", because the only explanation I've gotten on why this change is necessary, is that people from "White City" want revenge on MHAT.  MHAT plays by the rules, gets it's project approved, so White City wants to change the rules on something completely unrelated to that project.  

Third, or secondly, I'm not real sure what this would do.  Neither does MHAT.  It could be an absolutely worthless change.  People that didn't know the rules before hand, could be just getting duped into believing they changed something.  Just to get them off the city's back.  These people weren't paying attention before, it's not like they're going to notice people filing for exceptions in the future.

And exceptions will be filed.

Maybe it's worth passing just to get the "White City" folks to shut up.  The changes seem to have a negative potential, but they might be a lot less effective than it's proponents think.

[DowntownNow]

Neptune misses the point myself and others made in the other thread.  This is not a White City issue.  White City residents did not formulate or petition the Council for this proposed ordinance change for group homes.

My comment in the other thread regarded the irony which found MHAT and its supporters now asking the Council for more time to understand this ordinance and its potential impact.  The irony is also present in the statement that Michael Brose made when he said MHAT had been unaware of the proposed ordinance change, althought it had been previously discussed at other Council committee meetings.  Even Councilor Bynum addressed that topic, telling Mr. Brose that this had been an on-going issue and asking just how much time did Mr. Brose think was fair to wait on the issue.

Again, the irony I was alluding to is that MHAT's statements and requests for more time are the exact same things that the residents of White City sought when faced with the Council vote of the funding issue for the 10 N. Yale Project.  Nothing more, nothing less.  But at the time, MHAT, THA and Brose himself argued just because the residents of White City felt they hadnt been adequately informed of the pending issue and that they didnt understand it, was no reason to further delay a vote by the Council...now here they are asking for that courtesy...therein lies the irony.

[Neptune]

Yay, the copy and paste game!  The exact same conversation, has to be replied to on two different threads.

quote:Originally posted by DowntownNow

Neptune misses the point

Nope, got it.

quote:The Council should have moved to pass this on principle alone given MHAT's past behavior. Why should this have been treated any different?

Two completely different things, yet the City Council should have moved to pass this, for the sake of revenge on MHAT. Brilliant.

Any other brain-buster points on why this should pass?

[DowntownNow]

Um, because its had its fair hearing and vetting by the Council and public for some time now.  Just cause MHAT and others against this change were asleep at the wheel and didn't pay attention to what has been happening, or on the Council agendas, is not reason to delay a vote that has voiced public support.  

Im making the argument, same as Im sure Councilor Bynum was, that there should be no double standard when it comes to an organization's or individual's rights or responsibility to be mindful of issues that effect them, address them in the appropriate time and not have to ask for a delay simply because you were too busy.

Im using White City only as an example here.  White City asked for what MHAT and its supporters are asking for now, more time to vet and understand the process and come to mutually agreeable terms...White City was denied.  MHAT makes the same case and MHAT gets another week.  Thats a double standard.

[Neptune]

quote:Originally posted by DowntownNow

Um, because its had its fair hearing and vetting by the Council and public for some time now.  Just cause MHAT and others against this change were asleep at the wheel and didn't pay attention to what has been happening, or on the Council agendas, is not reason to delay a vote that has voiced public support.  

Im making the argument, same as Im sure Councilor Bynum was, that there should be no double standard when it comes to an organization's or individual's rights or responsibility to be mindful of issues that effect them, address them in the appropriate time and not have to ask for a delay simply because you were too busy.

Im using White City only as an example here.  White City asked for what MHAT and its supporters are asking for now, more time to vet and understand the process and come to mutually agreeable terms...White City was denied.  MHAT makes the same case and MHAT gets another week.  Thats a double standard.

Delays in changing the zoning codes, or any law, that happens.  Dufus codes and laws bring on lawsuits.

Trying to stop something that is already zoned and ready go, good luck.  Delays, won't be long for sure.

You'd know that, if you knew anything at all about how the city works.  Or any city for that matter.  

It's amazing you still can't answer the question of why this should pass, beyond revenge on MHAT.

[Neptune]

quote:Originally posted by DowntownNow

Im using White City only as an example here.

White City is the catalyst of this whole thing.  A bunch of angry people who didn't know, didn't care until too late, and then sought revenge.

That's the only answer you, or any proponent of this deal, have been able to provide.  It's the only answer you have.  "We hate MHAT, let's see if we can screw em somewhere in the zoning codes."

[Limabean]

quote:Originally posted by Neptune

quote:Originally posted by DowntownNow

Im using White City only as an example here.

White City is the catalyst of this whole thing.  A bunch of angry people who didn't know, didn't care until too late, and then sought revenge.

That's the only answer you, or any proponent of this deal, have been able to provide.  It's the only answer you have.  "We hate MHAT, let's see if we can screw em somewhere in the zoning codes."

Sounds like you are the angry person who hates White City.

Instead of accusing White City of promoting this zoning change, why don't you call your city councilor and ask who promoted it.

[Neptune]

quote:Originally posted by Limabean

Sounds like you are the angry person who hates White City.

Instead of accusing White City of promoting this zoning change, why don't you call your city councilor and ask who promoted it.

Because I honestly don't care who promoted it.  The White City folks tied itself to "WhoOwnsTulsa", a group of Neighborhood Associations opposed to the THA/MHAT project.  I couldn't care less.

Proponents keep bringing up "White City."  I don't have to.

[sgrizzle]

quote:Originally posted by Limabean



Sounds like you are the angry person who hates White City.

I don't care for any rascist neighborhoods, myself.

[]

[Limabean]

What is the racist referral for?

Do you know anyone in WHite City? Have you talked to any of the residents?

Either you are just making inflammatory comments or you are truly misinformed.

[OurTulsa]

After reading this proposed ordinance i think it looks like a knee-jerk over reacation that goes way too far.  Are we seriously going to lump these Community and Neighborhood Group homes in with detention/correction and homeless shelters.  Are they that bad that they have to be 1/2 mile apart?  xxx oriented businesses can be established closer together than that.  

Now any agency that wants to not bring attention to their shelters has to put the City on notice (I'm thinking of Domestic Violence homes).  If they have to ask for a special exception don't they have to put a big yellow sign in front of the house?  I've never heard of these small scale group homes causing problems because they were shelters.  If there's a problem with parking caused by these homes then that's a different issue altogether and a symptom of a much bigger problem with this city (it's absolute car dependence).  

Now, an apartment building that gets built as part of a long established PUD and looks down into a backyard that's a problem worth crying about.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by Limabean

What is the racist referral for?

Do you know anyone in WHite City? Have you talked to any of the residents?

Either you are just making inflammatory comments or you are truly misinformed.

Don't be a doofus. He knows its name has nothing to do with racism. White City's demographics are not that well known or at issue. Step back and take a breath.

Someone, or some group of overzealous homeowners associations, seem to be manipulating this issue over a problem that simply doesn't exist. There are no group home incidents that merit changing the zoning laws, or lumping categories together. Parking is not that big an issue. It can be dealt with in other ways. Neptune is right. Its the motivation here that matters.

There have been some well reasoned, cogent, insightful remarks made here by the regular posters who have experience and knowledge of the topic. I'm not one of them so I haven't participated, but as a spectator I note that as usual they are trampled on by others with dubious motivations, hair brained accusations and venom.

I get the feeling that some folks are using this forum, using this and other made up issues, along with half-assed associations to effect their own political aspirations. What...KFAQ not working anymore? They know that while an individual is easily ignored no matter how legitimate his complaint, a group is always powerful no matter how insipid its purpose.

I surely tire of the conspiratorial, anti-office holder mentality that is prevalent around here lately. Has it always been so? Every aspect of local government is assaulted as part of some sort of evil, nefarious, incompetent, inbred, scandal ridden, useless, taxpayer sucking entity. The message is, "You've been had Tulsa. Greedy businessmen and local elitist oligarchs have infiltrated your local government and are bloating themselves off the taxpayer. Stand up and fight for yourselves before its too late and we're all peasant farmers for the mid-town elite!" Powerful stuff.

Then you go downtown on a Friday night and see how the city is rebuilding itself. Its fun and attractive. You talk to city and county employees (I do on a regular basis in my work) and you note their professionalism even though they are underfunded and being attacked from all sides. You go out south and realize the traffic is not that bad, the lifestyle is pleasant and the people prosperous. You see the Westside organizing, re-establishing its pride and poised for growth. You note that all parts of the city are zealously represented in government which hasn't always been so. You see a city that is working pretty well considering our decreasing tax base.

What do they call that...cognitive dissonance?

Then you realize much of this is just the sound of partisan politics hiding behind groups. These anti-groups struggle to justify themselves by attacking those who shoulder the responsibility of governing. Its all so new and exciting for new members as they seek to destroy the status quo. To be part of the struggle against "the man". And there are lots of easy targets and lots of enterprising insiders to provide them.

[Rico]

"some sort of evil, nefarious, incompetent, inbred, scandal ridden, useless, taxpayer sucking entity. The message is, "You've been had Tulsa. Greedy businessmen and local elitist oligarchs have infiltrated your local government and are bloating themselves off the taxpayer. Stand up and fight for yourselves before its too late and we're all peasant farmers for the mid-town elite!" Powerful stuff."
^^^^^^

Man like..... You are channeling Friendly Bear.

Awesome Man..![8D]