Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma

[jdb]

"These are just some of the smaller problems at combining the two offices at first glance. Not even considering the difference in equipment and tactics. So I think everyone can see the difficulty it would be if it was even tried."


This sounds to me like a long range plan for the area - growing pains that will have to instituted, suffered, and overcome at some point - if for no other reason then the arena falls short of projections: then, world-over-population, no?

At some point won't Tulsa's population burst the seams of being a bundling-bagged, Township and buldge into becoming an actual city, or indeed, if we are already a City, then our bloomdom into that of a Metropolis?

In other words, making the leap from 2nd tier to 1st tier will mandate such changes, no? And are there not other cities that have made this leap that can be immulated as to what works - what doesn't?

I am sure combining two offices would be littered with issues, and the creation of a new division, say a Metro-Force, would be even more so litered, ie. over-lapping turf and the extra cost of extra systems, but isn't something like this expected to happen to all cities that have out grown the pant's of it's old system?

On the National level don't we see a cooperation and merger of the CIA and the FBI as a parrall? Maybe that's a bad example. How about Homeland Security and Border Patrol? er....OSBI and BIA...ok, well in theory anyway.

I don't know, and I am long past the safety point out here on this thin limb on my knowledge tree, but as it seems obvious and inevitable that changes will be required at some future point anyway - I'll ask if I'm full of beans or is this not a good time start making shifts in the requirements, ranking and pay scales?

I don't get the equipment differences, are county officers less armed or more? or the  tactics difference, you mean like sneaking up on a meth-lab, trailer house vs. bursting into a mid-town, gang, crib?

Meanwhile, back to the scramble of present day, we hold tight, right? find funding, encourage the public to keep a sharp eye on themsleves, and bank on the civic-minded officer to keep a box of No-Doze in the glove compartment?

eeeek, jdb

Are there regulations against incarserated,  cheeseheaded, deer hunters from offering online shooting lessons?

Anyone tired of Turkey soup and sandwiches yet?

[Neptune]

I still haven't heard an idea of where this money is suppose to come from.  Someone mentioned libraries, that being funded from a specific bond that hasn't even passed yet.  V2025 was passed for V2025 projects.  Are we suppose to try and pass some bond, essentially driving the city into further debt, for the purpose of building up and maintaining the police?  Is passing a bond for long term every day operation a good idea?  How about shifting cash out of roadway maintenance?

How is Tulsa suppose to compete with anyone if it ends up with the highest taxes or highest crime or worst roads in the nation?  Tulsa has been in rough shape for several years now, we've just passed some gaming measures and some state tax changes that will further damage Tulsa.  None of which is even in effect yet.

[owassoguy]

If the library bond passes, the old central library could be converted into downtown police station. I assume that police and sheriff rather mind their own business than work together.

[MH2010]

As far as a Tulsa County police force, basically no one wants it.  There is too much to lose for the individual departments and the cost would be way too much at this time.  It's just not possible at the present time.  Tulsa will end up like OKC. Where municipalities (City of Oklahoma City,Bethany, The Village, Nichols Hills, Yukon, Mustang ect. that basically run into each other.)

The bond issue was mentioned for public safety because the mayor keeps saying the city has no money to better fund public safety. Instead of thinking about maybe doing a bond issue or something of that sort for public safety in Oklahoma's most dangerous city, he decides to push a bond issue for a new central library!

[Neptune]

That's kind of what I was getting at.  Bonds are fine as long as the bond is for a specified project with a defined time limit...like for building a library.  If a bond were passed to fund the police...police forces are something that are necessary and permanent.  Funding for police departments will always need to be increased.

A bond in that case would essentially be committing Tulsa to a lifetime of debt barring some wild economic swing.  Yes its a tax increase, but the city gets less value out of a bond than it gets from some straight sales tax increase.  But Tulsa, like many cities, is constantly losing income to the suburbs.

So what does it all mean?  If some outside entity doesn't step up and help out with funding our local police force, we will either 1) have a terribly high crime rate consistently, or 2) have some the highest local taxes in the country, or 3) both.

[MH2010]

quote:Originally posted by neptune74137

That's kind of what I was getting at.  Bonds are fine as long as the bond is for a specified project with a defined time limit...like for building a library.  If a bond were passed to fund the police...police forces are something that are necessary and permanent.  Funding for police departments will always need to be increased.

A bond in that case would essentially be committing Tulsa to a lifetime of debt barring some wild economic swing.  Yes its a tax increase, but the city gets less value out of a bond than it gets from some straight sales tax increase.  But Tulsa, like many cities, is constantly losing income to the suburbs.

So what does it all mean?  If some outside entity doesn't step up and help out with funding our local police force, we will either 1) have a terribly high crime rate consistently, or 2) have some the highest local taxes in the country, or 3) both.

I think OKC solved their public safety funding problem by either using part of a third penny tax that gets renewed every five years for funding or a bond issue that gets renewed every five years I can't really remember which it is.

However, it is they found out long ago that they couldn't keep paying for their public safety thru the general fund.  They were losing too much money to their suburbs ect.  I just think something needs to be done soon.

[Neptune]

quote:Originally posted by MH2010

However, it is they found out long ago that they couldn't keep paying for their public safety thru the general fund.  They were losing too much money to their suburbs ect.  I just think something needs to be done soon.

Exactly.  Tulsa, like most cities, is going to have a very difficult time funding its police.  And I don't think we've seen our highest crime rate yet.  We'll have to check back on that in about a year.

Raise property taxes?  I doubt that will fly.  Besides the fact that once again, the financial needs of the police departments will increase every year.  So...we raise property taxes every year specifically for TPD?  

Sales tax increases are almost worthless since sales tax revenues are constantly being stretched already.  We are losing revenues to the burbs.  A sales tax increase, just like bonds or a one time property tax increase, would essentially postpone the need to deal with the issue.

Bonds are great for a construction project that needs to be done now, but bonding out to infinity will do considerable damage to Tulsa's economy later.  Plus, bonds are funded by taxes, any increase in the police budget means another bond or another tax increase.

And as if the crime rate wasn't bad already, we've decided to strip more funds from the city of Tulsa through redesigning tobacco taxes, expanding casinos, and creating a state lottery.  I understand the need to "do something soon," but I don't see anything on the horizon that says we can.  And I've seen no indication that the State or FED will jump up any time soon and kick in some cash.

[MH2010]

Just continue the downward spiral of the city?  Will crime rates have to equal Detroit's before something is done?  At what point do citizens in Tulsa say enough is enough and decide to fund public safety?

[Juan Mad Okie]

quote:Originally posted by MH2010

Just continue the downward spiral of the city?  Will crime rates have to equal Detroit's before something is done?  At what point do citizens in Tulsa say enough is enough and decide to fund public safety?

we have been funding public safety, however those in charge have decided to waste OUR money, we have bad roads becasue of waste, we have poor education because of waste so why should public safety be any different?

[Neptune]

quote:Originally posted by MH2010

Just continue the downward spiral of the city?  Will crime rates have to equal Detroit's before something is done?  At what point do citizens in Tulsa say enough is enough and decide to fund public safety?

Probably about the time Tulsa decides that increasing poverty and crime through casinos and lotteries is a bad thing.  Probably about the time Tulsa decides to stop sending extra money to the state on request.

I'm beginning to believe that Tulsa is headed straight to that "hollowed out shell of a city" model of Detroit...or even Dallas.  There are certain cities that have geographical advantages that Tulsa doesn't have, but in the larger more "advantaged" cities....they're having similar problems.  What it means is, that Tulsa may have to actually take itself out of the concept of competition on taxes, and become a heavily taxed city.  That of course has plenty of drawbacks including increasing the flight of currency out of Tulsa's economy making the situation tougher.

I don't believe Tulsa can fund this without assistance from the Fed.  I don't believe the State will ever really be interested in funding TPD.  Back on a political note, this is one of the many reasons why I was never for tax cuts and deficit spending on the Fed level.  Some Administrations send cash to inner city PD's, some don't or can't afford it.  I'd prefer Fed level taxes to local and state tax increases, because cities and states are in competition, the Fed isn't.  Cities and states need to be able to maintain lower tax rates, and need to have fully funded law enforcement.  The only thing the Fed is competing for is Mexican immigrants....and I think the Fed is winning that competition.

My guess is that without some Fed intervention, some expiring Bonds will need to be turned into permanent sales tax increases and property tax increases.  But, it's only a temporary fix.  Local revenues are and will be decreasing.

Unless, of course, the city of Tulsa is planning on "waiting it out" until the next boost from the Fed.  I could see Tulsa going either way.

[swake]

Ok, I hate to burst all the rhetoric, but, I did some digging, and some of what is being tossed around about crime and police staffing for Tulsa is not really supported by the facts, some is.

Tulsa has 249 police employees per 100,000 people and 191 officers per 100,000 people, that is compared to 260 employees and 194 officers in OKC.

Tulsa, for similar sized cities (350,000 to 499,000), ranks 12th of 17 cites in the number of employees and 7th in the number of officers per 100,000 people, not really very far out of line.

Tulsa had 1,122 violent crimes per 100,000 people in 2000, down from 1,334 in 1990, a big drop. OKC had 781 down from 1,082, also a big drop and a lot better.

Tulsa, for similar sized cities (350,000 to 499,000), ranks 8th of 17 cites in the number of violent crimes per 100,000 people. Again, we should do better, but hardly a hotbed of crime.

Tulsa does much better on property crimes (could it be that we have a gang problem instead of a crime problem?) with 5,710 property crimes per 100,000 people, down from 8,201 in 1990 and much better than OKC with 8,672, which was down from 9,529 in 1990.

Tulsa, for similar sized cities (350,000 to 499,000), ranks 12th of 17 cites in the number of property crimes per 100,000 people. Really, pretty good.

So maybe we do need a few more officers and they need to be focused on violent crime, but it's not really like the city is without police and is strife with crime.

Here's why the police are angry with the Mayor. Tulsa spends only $161 per resident on Police compared to $185 in OKC. Tulsa spends only $77,361 per officer compared to OKC's $92,413.

Tulsa, for similar sized cities (350,000 to 499,000), ranks 13th of 17 cites in amount of money per resident spent on police and 16th of 17 in the amount per officer. This is pretty far out of line.


So, what maybe we need 100 more officers and maybe we don't, but Tulsa should spend more per officer. Another $30-$40 per person per year would do it. Maybe more than a crime problem, we have a disgruntled police force.

Details at:
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/pdlc00.pdf

[Neptune]

Yeah...in that same report, Tulsa and Miami FL were the only 2 cities of the 12 where funding actually declined in those 10 years.  And Tulsa wasn't doing too bad in the 90s.

Also, a report on crime in 2000 has absolutely nothing to do with crime in 2004.

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by neptune74137

Yeah...in that same report, Tulsa and Miami FL were the only 2 cities of the 12 where funding actually declined in those 10 years.  And Tulsa wasn't doing too bad in the 90s.

Also, a report on crime in 2000 has absolutely nothing to do with crime in 2004.

Tulsa's violent crime rate is down from 2000, way down

According to the Morganquitno site:

Tulsa's violent crime rate per 100,000 people
2000    1125.0
2001 692.8
2002 671.1
2003 633.7

[Neptune]

Those numbers are for MSA.  Try this one.

http://morganquitno.com/cit03a.pdf

2003:  1092

http://morganquitno.com/cit02a.pdf

2002:  1086.3

It doesn't list its CITY figures for 2001 or 2000

[MH2010]

As of Novemeber 2003:

TPD had 756 sworn employees

that equals to 1.63 officers per 1000 residence or if you all of management you get 1.923 per 1000 residence.

to compare TPD to other police departments go to www.policepay.net

to compare cities go to http://www.bestplaces.net/html/crime_compare.asp

I compared Tulsa to Los Angeles.  Tulsa had a higher crime rate for property crimes and Forcible rapes and was close in aggravated assaults. We still have a long way to go to catch up to Detroit but we did beat them in larcenies.