Tulsa Named Most Dangerous City In Oklahoma

[Juan Mad Okie]

quote:Originally posted by MH2010

I've been on the department for four years and two people have tried to kill me and I can't even count all the other times someone was trying to kill someone else and I arrived at the scene to step into the middle of it. I survived my encounters by training, instinct and luck.  

First off I want to thank you for your hard work, secondly, I know traffic stops are dangerous, but Im trying to wrap my head around why a college degree is required. am I on to something by seperation out the two forces, or am I blow smoke out of my butt. I have a friend who is a cop and he says they shouldnt work traffic accidents, would a special division just for that area be feasable?

[MH2010]

quote:Originally posted by Juan Mad Okie

quote:Originally posted by MH2010

I've been on the department for four years and two people have tried to kill me and I can't even count all the other times someone was trying to kill someone else and I arrived at the scene to step into the middle of it. I survived my encounters by training, instinct and luck.  

First off I want to thank you for your hard work, secondly, I know traffic stops are dangerous, but Im trying to wrap my head around why a college degree is required. am I on to something by seperation out the two forces, or am I blow smoke out of my butt. I have a friend who is a cop and he says they shouldnt work traffic accidents, would a special division just for that area be feasable?

Thank you very much. Your thanks is very much appreciated.

Studies have shown (I don't have the titles of the research available right off hand but I have listed them on previous posts under other topics)that college educated police officers are more independent, are more critical thinkers, have less incidents of police brutality and/or corruption. To quote one research paper I read and still remember "better educated officers police better".

You really can't seperate the forces. It's not very practical not to mention there is simply not enough to seperate.

I was talking with an officer that has been on for about 30 years.  I haven't had a chance to verify this yet but they stated Tulsa Police had a hiring explosion in the 70's.  It was shortly after the Detriot riots and the federal government had a ton of grants available to hire more police officers.  Tulsa hired like 300-400 police officer in about 3 years.  That put the Tulsa police officers at about 700 in the late 1970's and early 1980's.

Now in 2005 Tulsa Police have approx. 780 sworn officers (I don't know the actual number because the academy class just graduated today).Look at what the population of Tulsa was and where the city limits were in the late 1970's and early 1980's and look what they are now.  Tulsa has grown alot but the Police force has stayed pretty much the same. As a result you can see where the problem lies.  It is well known in the police community that Tulsa police do the most with the least of any city it's size.

As far as traffic collisions, Dallas PD no longer works non-injury accidents.  I think it is mostly a manpower issue.  We do the same things here when calls back up or when it rains and collisions are everywhere.  We call it "operation slick streets".  It basically means that there are so many noninjury collisions that if officers responded to all of them there would not be enough officers to do anything else.

[Uranus74136]

quote:Originally posted by MH2010

quote:Originally posted by Uranus74136

quote:Originally posted by jdb

"you dont need a degree to pull over speeders..." - JMO

Maybe not, but you'll need a gun.
Which would mandate some type of certification - hopefully.

Walking up on a car you've pulled over or answering a Domestic Violence call...I wonder which one is creepier for an officer?

Creepy, meaning lethal.

Personally, I wouldn't perform either job at a lessor payscale then other officers - and not just because I am a big coward either - which I am.

Placing yourself in harms way, your life on a line - which common traffic stops have proved to become - needs to be properly compensated.
I don't see an inexpensive way around this.

You won't see me working the late shift at Jim's Booze-O-Rama, either.




Rico:

As a fellow hothead, I was able to clearly and easily recognize your deep sense of frustration by your use of multiple question marks (??) and the ire of your lashing exclaimation points (!!!!) read loud and pointedly, here in your latest post. I applaud your keystrokes.

However, in your ferver there was a cruical omisson that must be corrected.

You contend that we:
1. "Issue License to Carry Permits at the Airport Gates".
2. "Then introduce ourselves as the City...".

I am sure the goof is now obvious, but:

Item two should have read:
"Subsidize Neptunes, used but mostly functional, firearms Retail Outlet, so that a convienantly located stand can be built just South of Fine Parking. Thus, visiting VIP's can arm themselves with suitable firepower that won't clash with their fashion appearal before reaching Tulsa proper.".

Fanning the flames... jdb

When all the body bags are tallied, statistically it is much more dangerous to be STOPPED BY the police, than it is for the police to STOP a vehicle.  

On average, only about 50 police are killed in a given year "in the line of duty".  That is a tiny, tiny, fraction of the several million law enforcement officers on the payroll around the U.S.

Statistically, it is much more dangerous to be in the occupational classication of Fireman.  Or worse, a civilian STOPPED by the police.

When was the last Tulsa policeman killed in the Line of Duty? Was it the unfortunate Gus Spanos about 11 years ago?

How many Tulsans have been killed by the Tulsa PD in the last 11 years?  Can't count that high?

One of the most dangerous things a police officer does is traffic stops.  They are always unknown risk stops because you simply don't know who you are dealing with.  It could be anyone from a nice senior citizen to a murder suspect who won't be taken alive.

[Officer Gus Spanos died April 23, 1993 after an early morning shooting following a car stop in Tulsa on April 22,1993.About 1:48 a.m., Officer Spanos stopped a car at 5800 N. Cincinnati Ave. His backing officer found him lying next to his patrol unit with a bullet wound to the head. He was transported to the hospital where he died at 12:26 p.m. the following day.]

[Officer Fabrienne Van Arsdell burned to death on July 25, 1981, when her patrol car was rammed from behind by a drunk driver. Her car caught on fire before she could escape. She had stopped a drunk driver at 6300 S. Lewis Avenue and was running a records check when another drunk driver drove into the rear of her patrol car.  The police car burst into flames and the doors were jammed from the collision.]

And to answer Uranus, Statistically speaking in Tulsa, it is much more dangerous to be a civilian that tries to kill the police or other civilians on a traffic stop. Civilians that obey the law and not try to kill anyone will get thru the car stop and be just fine.


I don't know how many people have been killed by TPD in the last 11 years. However, I do know that a greater number has tried to kill us.I've been on the department for four years and two people have tried to kill me and I can't even count all the other times someone was trying to kill someone else and I arrived at the scene to step into the middle of it. I survived my encounters by training, instinct and luck.  

If it will make you feel better Uranus know that the next Tulsa Police officer that dies lost that battle and the bad guy won so then maybe your statistics won't be so skewed.

<<<<<FYI  (1713 hours, Friday) >>>

UDSW
25 active calls and 3 calls holding
UDE
22 active calls and 1 call holding
UDN
13 active calls and no calls holding

A handy little statistic that is just NOT calculated for some reason by the U.S. Justice Dept. Crime Statistics Bureau is the number of CIVILIANS killed by our police "in the line of duty" every year.

I think if Americans had any idea of the slaughter of their fellow citizens occuring every day by duly sworn law enforcement officers that they would be REVOLTED by the carnage.  

That indiscriminate slaughter is a direct result of one thing:  The War on Drugs (WOD).

WOD in turn - (being a WAR after all) lead to a WAR on AMERICANS by the Police.  It's the increased militarization of the police that evolved from the WOD that is causing the carnage.  

The police have emulated and now operate like the military.  Carry high capacity firearms.  Carry fully automatic M-16's.  Wear snappy black uniforms and jack boots like the Special Forces and Delta Force commandos (The Military).  Wear kevlar helmets (like the Military) that without the camouflaged helmet cover look remarkably like the WWII Nazi helmets.....  OOps!

I also notice a strong trend in police behavior where they don't display a name-tape on their uniform, in order to HIDE their identity, and sometimes even wear a mask to disguise their identity.  How HANDY to avoid a subsequent civil suit, because the victim of police brutality CANNOT identify the policemen who inflicted the brutality?

"Driving While Black" is statistically speaking FAR more hazardous than anything that the police face.  

2 TPD killed in the line of duty in the past 24 years?  Just a statistical blip, unless you're the "blip", of course.  

I estimate that 10 civilians are killed every year on average by TPD, either "pointed a gun", or "resisting arrest", or dead in custody from "heart attack" or "drug-induced heart attack", or shot while "trying to escape".  

Meaning, maybe choked or smothered by the police while the suspect has their hands handcuffed behind their backs.  

Recently your fellow officers in Stillwater crushed the lungs of a 38 year old mother who had a problem with these THREE MALE officers forceably removing her pantyhose while in police custody........She's STILL dead.  Cleared by the the County DA; but, it was after all PAIN County Oklahoma.  By the way, the DA's report indicated that the police victim was WEARING her mandatory Orange Jail Jumpsuit when EMT personnel were finally called.........  Curious......  Hmmmh.......

But, the POLICE do investigate themselves for every death they inflict.  And, not surprisingly, they CLEAR themselves - EVERYTIME.

Can you name ONE time that a death of a civilian while either in TPD custody or making an arrest has NOT been ruled JUSTIFIED???

Name ONE.  You CANNOT.  

The POLICE cannot be trusted to INVESTIGATE themselves for their own potential misconduct.  The police department is not INDEPENDENT of the harmful act.  NOR, can a county officer (the DA) be trusted to INDEPENDENTLY investigate a police-inflicted death when the county is facing potential civil liability.  

[Rico]

quote:Originally posted by jdb

"you dont need a degree to pull over speeders..." - JMO

Maybe not, but you'll need a gun.
Which would mandate some type of certification - hopefully.

Walking up on a car you've pulled over or answering a Domestic Violence call...I wonder which one is creepier for an officer?

Creepy, meaning lethal.

Personally, I wouldn't perform either job at a lessor payscale then other officers - and not just because I am a big coward either - which I am.

Placing yourself in harms way, your life on a line - which common traffic stops have proved to become - needs to be properly compensated.
I don't see an inexpensive way around this.

You won't see me working the late shift at Jim's Booze-O-Rama, either.




Rico:

As a fellow hothead, I was able to clearly and easily recognize your deep sense of frustration by your use of multiple question marks (??) and the ire of your lashing exclaimation points (!!!!) read loud and pointedly, here in your latest post. I applaud your keystrokes.

However, in your ferver there was a cruical omisson that must be corrected.

You contend that we:
1. "Issue License to Carry Permits at the Airport Gates".
2. "Then introduce ourselves as the City...".

I am sure the goof is now obvious, but:

Item two should have read:
"Subsidize Neptunes, used but mostly functional, firearms Retail Outlet, so that a convienantly located stand can be built just South of Fine Parking. Thus, visiting VIP's can arm themselves with suitable firepower that won't clash with their fashion appearal before reaching Tulsa proper.".

Fanning the flames... jdb

                            Amazing I was just thinking what we could do to branch out!
This seems perfect, we could sell other things in the store, perhaps a copy of JudgeDoom's Archived article The Final Solution for Downtown!!!  
Hand it out as a pamphlet..... A Welcome package so to speak..
This has given me so many ideas we could make a book out of it!

I wonder if Michael Wallis is ready to start another Novel???

I think I will write him a note and see if he is interested in something like "Chinatown Revisited" Complete with
Crooked Politicians,,, Mysterious Waterlines they work on in the Middle of the night,,,Deals Made on Promises that Your Nose will be spared if you Put my Muscle Men in the right Seats, Hell, Bob Lorton is not too old to play in a Movie if we could get that off the ground.......
Mayor Bill could make a Cameo in it Carrying A Briefcase Filled Mith Mountains of Cash.... With a Big V on the Side..........and hand out cards saying Choose Which one Of these "Bill's" You Want before they all Dissapear.......

jdb--- you are a genius WHY DIDN'T I THINK OF THIS SOONER?

We could Have Crimes Throughout With Bob Poe as the arch-villain............He could even Have Lines Like, "Don't Worry Boys, The Fix is In With The Coppers, They Don't Even Have The Fire Power To Kill a Skeet"  ( Skeet could of course be played by Clay Bird................)

*To make this qualify as a post I guess I should Congratulate the 36 New Police Officers that graduated from the Academy   Yesterday..........
Put Your 401K Heavy into Kevlar.. From what I have read the price will go up...***

[}:)]

[MH2010]

"Can you name ONE time that a death of a civilian while either in TPD custody or making an arrest has NOT been ruled JUSTIFIED???

Name ONE. You CANNOT. "

-Exactly, because there has not been one death by a civilian that could be ruled anything else but justified. TPD has been right in the use of deadly force 100% of the time.  Would you rather we lower our percentage down to 70% or 80% to ease your conspiratorial mind?

"Recently your fellow officers in Stillwater crushed the lungs of a 38 year old mother who had a problem with these THREE MALE officers forceably removing her pantyhose while in police custody"

-Don't group me in with Stillwater PD. I don't know one officer over there. I have no idea what happened over there.

"Carry high capacity firearms. Carry fully automatic M-16's"

-I would be happy if Tulsa was like Mayberry.  Where I didn't even need to carry a firearm or just carried one bullet for my gun in my pocket. However, that is simply not the case in Tulsa. The last few shooting homicides that have occurred have been with SKS's or AK47's. I don't know if you are familiar with these weapons but they are assault weapons.  They both have high capacity magazines (30-50 round) and they shoot 7.62mm bullets.  These rounds easily go thru our vests. In fact, the rounds went completely thru the vehicles the victims were sitting in.  The only part of the vehicle the rounds did not travel thru were the engine blocks. Look at the bank robbery in L.A. Where the suspects has body armor and automatic weapons and that was before the Brady Bill was expired. Look at the total carnage they caused. Officers had only 9mm pistols and were completely ineffective. As a result, the episode lasted over 2 hours.An AR-15 or M-16 would have ended that mess and alot less people would have been shot.

"I also notice a strong trend in police behavior where they don't display a name-tape on their uniform, in order to HIDE their identity, and sometimes even wear a mask to disguise their identity."

-In Tulsa there are about 50 or 60 officers that do undercover work.  Since the department has so few officers these same officers have to also run the search warrants or arrest warrants they generate.  As you can imagine, if the officer wants to stay undercover or if they are doing another case undercover then they may need to HIDE their identity when they execute the warrant.  They may even wear a mask so the suspect doesn't see their face and tell everyone they know, "HEY, THAT PERSON IS A POLICE OFFICER!" In a city the size of Tusla it doesn't take long before bad guys start to talk and they recognize you. You hear the inevitable "Hey, that dude's a cop."

To futher complete this answer, maybe you haven't noticed but Tulsa has seen an explosion in the Hispanic population.  Well, alot of drug trafficking (It's spelled like that in the statute) is occurring with this new influx of people.  Some of these people are great citizens that want to have a better life and others are Mexican gang members ect.  Some of these Mexican gangs have rewards for killing cops or members of cops families so they can't testify in court or to scare other cops. Even members of the Crips and Bloods have been known to talk about it and some have actually made plans to do it. If you have our names then it is not real hard to find out where we live. I'm not saying this happens all the time but it is being documented around the country at an increasing rate and I know I don't want to be that "blip" you spoke of in your previous post.

"I estimate that 10 civilians are killed every year on average by TPD, either "pointed a gun", or "resisting arrest", or dead in custody from "heart attack" or "drug-induced heart attack", or shot while "trying to escape". "

-Ever thought those "10 civilians" were killed because deadly force had to be utilized because they pointed a gun, resisted arrest and tried to kill us?  Maybe they actually had a heart attack in custody, whether it was drug-induced or not?  No one has been killed while trying to escape in along time.  The fleeing felon law ended about 25 years ago.

"WOD in turn - (being a WAR after all) lead to a WAR on AMERICANS by the Police. It's the increased militarization of the police that evolved from the WOD that is causing the carnage."

-Ever thought that maybe the "drugs" is what is causing the carnage. For drug dealers, crime is a career. It is how they make their living.They will take unspeakable measures to make sure that nobody infringes upon their success, whether it's police or other dope dealers looking to rip them off.  The user on the other hand usually becomes an addict and will rob, burglarize, steal, sale their bodies or lie to get another hit. I don't have the research to back this up but I would estimate "drugs" are responsible for about 70% of all the crime in Tulsa.  

By the way,  I'm not responding to your posts trying to change or mind. I know I can't but I am hoping to just give another perspective for the other people who are reading this discussion.

[Uranus74136]

quote:Originally posted by MH2010

"Can you name ONE time that a death of a civilian while either in TPD custody or making an arrest has NOT been ruled JUSTIFIED???

Name ONE. You CANNOT. "

-Exactly, because there has not been one death by a civilian that could be ruled anything else but justified. TPD has been right in the use of deadly force 100% of the time.  Would you rather we lower our percentage down to 70% or 80% to ease your conspiratorial mind?

"Recently your fellow officers in Stillwater crushed the lungs of a 38 year old mother who had a problem with these THREE MALE officers forceably removing her pantyhose while in police custody"

-Don't group me in with Stillwater PD. I don't know one officer over there. I have no idea what happened over there.

"Carry high capacity firearms. Carry fully automatic M-16's"

-I would be happy if Tulsa was like Mayberry.  Where I didn't even need to carry a firearm or just carried one bullet for my gun in my pocket. However, that is simply not the case in Tulsa. The last few shooting homicides that have occurred have been with SKS's or AK47's. I don't know if you are familiar with these weapons but they are assault weapons.  They both have high capacity magazines (30-50 round) and they shoot 7.62mm bullets.  These rounds easily go thru our vests. In fact, the rounds went completely thru the vehicles the victims were sitting in.  The only part of the vehicle the rounds did not travel thru were the engine blocks. Look at the bank robbery in L.A. Where the suspects has body armor and automatic weapons and that was before the Brady Bill was expired. Look at the total carnage they caused. Officers had only 9mm pistols and were completely ineffective. As a result, the episode lasted over 2 hours.An AR-15 or M-16 would have ended that mess and alot less people would have been shot.

"I also notice a strong trend in police behavior where they don't display a name-tape on their uniform, in order to HIDE their identity, and sometimes even wear a mask to disguise their identity."

-In Tulsa there are about 50 or 60 officers that do undercover work.  Since the department has so few officers these same officers have to also run the search warrants or arrest warrants they generate.  As you can imagine, if the officer wants to stay undercover or if they are doing another case undercover then they may need to HIDE their identity when they execute the warrant.  They may even wear a mask so the suspect doesn't see their face and tell everyone they know, "HEY, THAT PERSON IS A POLICE OFFICER!" In a city the size of Tusla it doesn't take long before bad guys start to talk and they recognize you. You hear the inevitable "Hey, that dude's a cop."

To futher complete this answer, maybe you haven't noticed but Tulsa has seen an explosion in the Hispanic population.  Well, alot of drug trafficking (It's spelled like that in the statute) is occurring with this new influx of people.  Some of these people are great citizens that want to have a better life and others are Mexican gang members ect.  Some of these Mexican gangs have rewards for killing cops or members of cops families so they can't testify in court or to scare other cops. Even members of the Crips and Bloods have been known to talk about it and some have actually made plans to do it. If you have our names then it is not real hard to find out where we live. I'm not saying this happens all the time but it is being documented around the country at an increasing rate and I know I don't want to be that "blip" you spoke of in your previous post.

"I estimate that 10 civilians are killed every year on average by TPD, either "pointed a gun", or "resisting arrest", or dead in custody from "heart attack" or "drug-induced heart attack", or shot while "trying to escape". "

-Ever thought those "10 civilians" were killed because deadly force had to be utilized because they pointed a gun, resisted arrest and tried to kill us?  Maybe they actually had a heart attack in custody, whether it was drug-induced or not?  No one has been killed while trying to escape in along time.  The fleeing felon law ended about 25 years ago.

"WOD in turn - (being a WAR after all) lead to a WAR on AMERICANS by the Police. It's the increased militarization of the police that evolved from the WOD that is causing the carnage."

-Ever thought that maybe the "drugs" is what is causing the carnage. For drug dealers, crime is a career. It is how they make their living.They will take unspeakable measures to make sure that nobody infringes upon their success, whether it's police or other dope dealers looking to rip them off.  The user on the other hand usually becomes an addict and will rob, burglarize, steal, sale their bodies or lie to get another hit. I don't have the research to back this up but I would estimate "drugs" are responsible for about 70% of all the crime in Tulsa.  

By the way,  I'm not responding to your posts trying to change or mind. I know I can't but I am hoping to just give another perspective for the other people who are reading this discussion.

There's nothing in the TPD investigative standards or the DA's playbook except a RUBBER STAMP for the TPD's use of force as JUSTIFIED.

Maybe there were just a few cases of Just-I-Lied for Justified?  You'd have to admit that the Law of Probability, unlike the Law of Gravity, is being defied by ZERO wrongful death determinations in respect to TPD use of force?  ZERO cases, EVER?  Hmmmmmmh?

Suggestion to TPD:  And, again, for the RECORD, the following comments are NOT a TERRORISTIC THREAT; Repeat, Not A Terroristic Threat.  Comments are Intended as only a HYPOTHETICAL discussion, intended for instruction and education of this Forum:

>Your friends in blue are wasting a lot of time and energy stomping on handcuffed prisoners.  Take a note from the Khymer Rouge Prisoner Management Playbook:  

Here's the 5 EASY steps:

1)  Hand-cuff prisoner with hands BEHIND back. This is TPD SOP, so you're already GOOD at doing Step 1.

2)  Place small plastic bag over prisoner's head.

3)  Tie plastic bag at base snugly around prisoner's neck, using string, rope, wire or duct tape.  In the event you have used up supplies of rope, string, wire or duct tape, even the prisoners shoe laces will do nicely.

4)  Take a short Coffee Break while prisoner quickly suffocates.

5)  After prisoner's vital signs indicate death, remove plastic bag from prisoner's head for possible future use (bag condition warranting), and to remove any bothersome evidence.

How HANDY!  Much handier than the proverbial police "Read Prisoner the Phone Book".  And, again, for the RECORD, the following comments are NOT a TERRORISTIC THREAT; Repeat, Not A Terroristic Threat.  Comments are Intended as only a HYPOTHETICAL discussion, intended for instruction and education of this Forum:

Know about "Reading the Phonebook"?  

>Here's the 4 EASY instruction Steps from the Memphis PD User Manual:

1) Place phonebook against Prisoner's head.
2) STRIKE handbook with rubber hammer, mallet, hammer, or even your fist if other tools are lacking.  
3) Prisoner is immediately rendered unconscious.  
4) Avoids those PESKY bruises or abrasions on the prisoner's head.  

[rwarn17588]

Sounds like the tactics used by some Chicago cops 10 or so years ago. The end result is that a few Death Row inmates had their sentences commuted by the governor.

[Uranus74136]

quote:Originally posted by rwarn17588

Sounds like the tactics used by some Chicago cops 10 or so years ago. The end result is that a few Death Row inmates had their sentences commuted by the governor.

Yes, Gov. Ryan did both pardon a few, and commute a large number of Death Row sentences, just prior to leaving office.  

His contemporaneous comments, carried repeatedly on C-Span at the time, were a carefully chronologued history of abuses of the criminal justice system perpetrated against the citizens of Illinois.  Really a totally damning indictment of capital punishment.  Catch his comments again sometime.

He's now under Federal Indictment, for his campaign workers' violations of campaign law, as well as certain close advisors selling favors.  

Is this Payback for his daring to question the Government-is-God-and-is-therefore-ALWAYS-RIGHT mentality?

Amnesty International/Amnesty USA have some shocking reports on the the U.S. Justice System on their website.  See  www.amnesty.org
for details

[Rico]

quote:Originally posted by Uranus74136

quote:Originally posted by MH2010

"Can you name ONE time that a death of a civilian while either in TPD custody or making an arrest has NOT been ruled JUSTIFIED???

Name ONE. You CANNOT. "

-Exactly, because there has not been one death by a civilian that could be ruled anything else but justified. TPD has been right in the use of deadly force 100% of the time.  Would you rather we lower our percentage down to 70% or 80% to ease your conspiratorial mind?

"Recently your fellow officers in Stillwater crushed the lungs of a 38 year old mother who had a problem with these THREE MALE officers forceably removing her pantyhose while in police custody"

-Don't group me in with Stillwater PD. I don't know one officer over there. I have no idea what happened over there.

"Carry high capacity firearms. Carry fully automatic M-16's"

-I would be happy if Tulsa was like Mayberry.  Where I didn't even need to carry a firearm or just carried one bullet for my gun in my pocket. However, that is simply not the case in Tulsa. The last few shooting homicides that have occurred have been with SKS's or AK47's. I don't know if you are familiar with these weapons but they are assault weapons.  They both have high capacity magazines (30-50 round) and they shoot 7.62mm bullets.  These rounds easily go thru our vests. In fact, the rounds went completely thru the vehicles the victims were sitting in.  The only part of the vehicle the rounds did not travel thru were the engine blocks. Look at the bank robbery in L.A. Where the suspects has body armor and automatic weapons and that was before the Brady Bill was expired. Look at the total carnage they caused. Officers had only 9mm pistols and were completely ineffective. As a result, the episode lasted over 2 hours.An AR-15 or M-16 would have ended that mess and alot less people would have been shot.

"I also notice a strong trend in police behavior where they don't display a name-tape on their uniform, in order to HIDE their identity, and sometimes even wear a mask to disguise their identity."

-In Tulsa there are about 50 or 60 officers that do undercover work.  Since the department has so few officers these same officers have to also run the search warrants or arrest warrants they generate.  As you can imagine, if the officer wants to stay undercover or if they are doing another case undercover then they may need to HIDE their identity when they execute the warrant.  They may even wear a mask so the suspect doesn't see their face and tell everyone they know, "HEY, THAT PERSON IS A POLICE OFFICER!" In a city the size of Tusla it doesn't take long before bad guys start to talk and they recognize you. You hear the inevitable "Hey, that dude's a cop."

To futher complete this answer, maybe you haven't noticed but Tulsa has seen an explosion in the Hispanic population.  Well, alot of drug trafficking (It's spelled like that in the statute) is occurring with this new influx of people.  Some of these people are great citizens that want to have a better life and others are Mexican gang members ect.  Some of these Mexican gangs have rewards for killing cops or members of cops families so they can't testify in court or to scare other cops. Even members of the Crips and Bloods have been known to talk about it and some have actually made plans to do it. If you have our names then it is not real hard to find out where we live. I'm not saying this happens all the time but it is being documented around the country at an increasing rate and I know I don't want to be that "blip" you spoke of in your previous post.

"I estimate that 10 civilians are killed every year on average by TPD, either "pointed a gun", or "resisting arrest", or dead in custody from "heart attack" or "drug-induced heart attack", or shot while "trying to escape". "

-Ever thought those "10 civilians" were killed because deadly force had to be utilized because they pointed a gun, resisted arrest and tried to kill us?  Maybe they actually had a heart attack in custody, whether it was drug-induced or not?  No one has been killed while trying to escape in along time.  The fleeing felon law ended about 25 years ago.

"WOD in turn - (being a WAR after all) lead to a WAR on AMERICANS by the Police. It's the increased militarization of the police that evolved from the WOD that is causing the carnage."

-Ever thought that maybe the "drugs" is what is causing the carnage. For drug dealers, crime is a career. It is how they make their living.They will take unspeakable measures to make sure that nobody infringes upon their success, whether it's police or other dope dealers looking to rip them off.  The user on the other hand usually becomes an addict and will rob, burglarize, steal, sale their bodies or lie to get another hit. I don't have the research to back this up but I would estimate "drugs" are responsible for about 70% of all the crime in Tulsa.  

By the way,  I'm not responding to your posts trying to change or mind. I know I can't but I am hoping to just give another perspective for the other people who are reading this discussion.

There's nothing in the TPD investigative standards or the DA's playbook except a RUBBER STAMP for the TPD's use of force as JUSTIFIED.

Maybe there were just a few cases of Just-I-Lied for Justified?  You'd have to admit that the Law of Probability, unlike the Law of Gravity, is being defied by ZERO wrongful death determinations in respect to TPD use of force?  ZERO cases, EVER?  Hmmmmmmh?

Suggestion to TPD:  And, again, for the RECORD, the following comments are NOT a TERRORISTIC THREAT; Repeat, Not A Terroristic Threat.  Comments are Intended as only a HYPOTHETICAL discussion, intended for instruction and education of this Forum:

>Your friends in blue are wasting a lot of time and energy stomping on handcuffed prisoners.  Take a note from the Khymer Rouge Prisoner Management Playbook:  

Here's the 5 EASY steps:

1)  Hand-cuff prisoner with hands BEHIND back. This is TPD SOP, so you're already GOOD at doing Step 1.

2)  Place small plastic bag over prisoner's head.

3)  Tie plastic bag at base snugly around prisoner's neck, using string, rope, wire or duct tape.  In the event you have used up supplies of rope, string, wire or duct tape, even the prisoners shoe laces will do nicely.

4)  Take a short Coffee Break while prisoner quickly suffocates.

5)  After prisoner's vital signs indicate death, remove plastic bag from prisoner's head for possible future use (bag condition warranting), and to remove any bothersome evidence.

How HANDY!  Much handier than the proverbial police "Read Prisoner the Phone Book".  And, again, for the RECORD, the following comments are NOT a TERRORISTIC THREAT; Repeat, Not A Terroristic Threat.  Comments are Intended as only a HYPOTHETICAL discussion, intended for instruction and education of this Forum:

Know about "Reading the Phonebook"?  

>Here's the 4 EASY instruction Steps from the Memphis PD User Manual:

1) Place phonebook against Prisoner's head.
2) STRIKE handbook with rubber hammer, mallet, hammer, or even your fist if other tools are lacking.  
3) Prisoner is immediately rendered unconscious.  
4) Avoids those PESKY bruises or abrasions on the prisoner's head.  

Mr. Uranus, You are wasting so much space with so little to say.
You are a virtual fountain of knowledge about things that you can't prove or know very little about, If you could prove them I do not believe there is a soul on these forums that does not believe you and your Attorney would  be on the Courthouse steps.........

You are no Angela Davis.....

You are no Jerry Rubin.....

Allthough if You had been able to put your name in  a famous or infamous category it would have probably been for hurting yourself while Blowing Your Nose.

Take some Vitamin C and a couple of shots of your Evan Williams and have a good long nap

I for one do not believe all Police are Saints. That being said,
To embrace your ideology that there is a Nationwide Plot to
Keep The People In Their Place Is as Paranoid as some of the things Crack Smokers come up with!!!!!

You have obviousely Failed in any attempt to Organize a Following for The Smoke coming from your Behind,
or you would be as infamous as Sonny Barger in these parts..

GIVE IT A REST!!

[Uranus74136]

quote:Originally posted by Rico

quote:Originally posted by Uranus74136

quote:Originally posted by MH2010

"Can you name ONE time that a death of a civilian while either in TPD custody or making an arrest has NOT been ruled JUSTIFIED???

Name ONE. You CANNOT. "

-Exactly, because there has not been one death by a civilian that could be ruled anything else but justified. TPD has been right in the use of deadly force 100% of the time.  Would you rather we lower our percentage down to 70% or 80% to ease your conspiratorial mind?

"Recently your fellow officers in Stillwater crushed the lungs of a 38 year old mother who had a problem with these THREE MALE officers forceably removing her pantyhose while in police custody"

-Don't group me in with Stillwater PD. I don't know one officer over there. I have no idea what happened over there.

"Carry high capacity firearms. Carry fully automatic M-16's"

-I would be happy if Tulsa was like Mayberry.  Where I didn't even need to carry a firearm or just carried one bullet for my gun in my pocket. However, that is simply not the case in Tulsa. The last few shooting homicides that have occurred have been with SKS's or AK47's. I don't know if you are familiar with these weapons but they are assault weapons.  They both have high capacity magazines (30-50 round) and they shoot 7.62mm bullets.  These rounds easily go thru our vests. In fact, the rounds went completely thru the vehicles the victims were sitting in.  The only part of the vehicle the rounds did not travel thru were the engine blocks. Look at the bank robbery in L.A. Where the suspects has body armor and automatic weapons and that was before the Brady Bill was expired. Look at the total carnage they caused. Officers had only 9mm pistols and were completely ineffective. As a result, the episode lasted over 2 hours.An AR-15 or M-16 would have ended that mess and alot less people would have been shot.

"I also notice a strong trend in police behavior where they don't display a name-tape on their uniform, in order to HIDE their identity, and sometimes even wear a mask to disguise their identity."

-In Tulsa there are about 50 or 60 officers that do undercover work.  Since the department has so few officers these same officers have to also run the search warrants or arrest warrants they generate.  As you can imagine, if the officer wants to stay undercover or if they are doing another case undercover then they may need to HIDE their identity when they execute the warrant.  They may even wear a mask so the suspect doesn't see their face and tell everyone they know, "HEY, THAT PERSON IS A POLICE OFFICER!" In a city the size of Tusla it doesn't take long before bad guys start to talk and they recognize you. You hear the inevitable "Hey, that dude's a cop."

To futher complete this answer, maybe you haven't noticed but Tulsa has seen an explosion in the Hispanic population.  Well, alot of drug trafficking (It's spelled like that in the statute) is occurring with this new influx of people.  Some of these people are great citizens that want to have a better life and others are Mexican gang members ect.  Some of these Mexican gangs have rewards for killing cops or members of cops families so they can't testify in court or to scare other cops. Even members of the Crips and Bloods have been known to talk about it and some have actually made plans to do it. If you have our names then it is not real hard to find out where we live. I'm not saying this happens all the time but it is being documented around the country at an increasing rate and I know I don't want to be that "blip" you spoke of in your previous post.

"I estimate that 10 civilians are killed every year on average by TPD, either "pointed a gun", or "resisting arrest", or dead in custody from "heart attack" or "drug-induced heart attack", or shot while "trying to escape". "

-Ever thought those "10 civilians" were killed because deadly force had to be utilized because they pointed a gun, resisted arrest and tried to kill us?  Maybe they actually had a heart attack in custody, whether it was drug-induced or not?  No one has been killed while trying to escape in along time.  The fleeing felon law ended about 25 years ago.

"WOD in turn - (being a WAR after all) lead to a WAR on AMERICANS by the Police. It's the increased militarization of the police that evolved from the WOD that is causing the carnage."

-Ever thought that maybe the "drugs" is what is causing the carnage. For drug dealers, crime is a career. It is how they make their living.They will take unspeakable measures to make sure that nobody infringes upon their success, whether it's police or other dope dealers looking to rip them off.  The user on the other hand usually becomes an addict and will rob, burglarize, steal, sale their bodies or lie to get another hit. I don't have the research to back this up but I would estimate "drugs" are responsible for about 70% of all the crime in Tulsa.  

By the way,  I'm not responding to your posts trying to change or mind. I know I can't but I am hoping to just give another perspective for the other people who are reading this discussion.

There's nothing in the TPD investigative standards or the DA's playbook except a RUBBER STAMP for the TPD's use of force as JUSTIFIED.

Maybe there were just a few cases of Just-I-Lied for Justified?  You'd have to admit that the Law of Probability, unlike the Law of Gravity, is being defied by ZERO wrongful death determinations in respect to TPD use of force?  ZERO cases, EVER?  Hmmmmmmh?

Suggestion to TPD:  And, again, for the RECORD, the following comments are NOT a TERRORISTIC THREAT; Repeat, Not A Terroristic Threat.  Comments are Intended as only a HYPOTHETICAL discussion, intended for instruction and education of this Forum:

>Your friends in blue are wasting a lot of time and energy stomping on handcuffed prisoners.  Take a note from the Khymer Rouge Prisoner Management Playbook:  

Here's the 5 EASY steps:

1)  Hand-cuff prisoner with hands BEHIND back. This is TPD SOP, so you're already GOOD at doing Step 1.

2)  Place small plastic bag over prisoner's head.

3)  Tie plastic bag at base snugly around prisoner's neck, using string, rope, wire or duct tape.  In the event you have used up supplies of rope, string, wire or duct tape, even the prisoners shoe laces will do nicely.

4)  Take a short Coffee Break while prisoner quickly suffocates.

5)  After prisoner's vital signs indicate death, remove plastic bag from prisoner's head for possible future use (bag condition warranting), and to remove any bothersome evidence.

How HANDY!  Much handier than the proverbial police "Read Prisoner the Phone Book".  And, again, for the RECORD, the following comments are NOT a TERRORISTIC THREAT; Repeat, Not A Terroristic Threat.  Comments are Intended as only a HYPOTHETICAL discussion, intended for instruction and education of this Forum:

Know about "Reading the Phonebook"?  

>Here's the 4 EASY instruction Steps from the Memphis PD User Manual:

1) Place phonebook against Prisoner's head.
2) STRIKE handbook with rubber hammer, mallet, hammer, or even your fist if other tools are lacking.  
3) Prisoner is immediately rendered unconscious.  
4) Avoids those PESKY bruises or abrasions on the prisoner's head.  

Mr. Uranus, You are wasting so much space with so little to say.
You are a virtual fountain of knowledge about things that you can't prove or know very little about, If you could prove them I do not believe there is a soul on these forums that does not believe you and your Attorney would  be on the Courthouse steps.........

You are no Angela Davis.....

You are no Jerry Rubin.....

Allthough if You had been able to put your name in  a famous or infamous category it would have probbly been for hurting yourself while Blowing Your Nose.

Take some Vitamin C and a couple of shots of your Evan Williams and have a good long nap

I for one do not believe all Police are Saints. That being said,
To embrace your ideology that there is a Nationwide Plot to
Keep The People In Their Place Is as Paranoid as some of the things Crack Smokers come up with!!!!!

You have obviousely Failed in any attempt to Organize a Following for The Smoke coming from your Behind,
or you would be as infamous as Sonny Barger in these parts..

GIVE IT A REST!!

There's REALLY no need for PERSONAL attacks.

Please, in the future, just SHOW ME where I'm wrong!

I'm alleging NO conspiracy.  

Rather, simple put:  

>Police are not INDEPENDENT to investigate their own alleged wrongdoing.  Similarly, the local DA is not INDEPENDENT to investigate allegations of police misconduct, because of the extreme civil liability for the city/county for rulings substantiating police misconduct.  Rather, a functioning CITIZEN REVIEW BOARD is badly needed here in Tulsa to INDEPENDENTLY review and investigate allegations of police misconduct.

The core problem with our justice system is the previous paragraph.

By the way, the POLICE control the evidence of every investigation.  That's probably why they strenuously do NOT want those pesky camcorders in their police cars.  Because the media will be INDEPENDENT evidence from what they SAY in their official police reports.......

Someday, someone in Tulsa will independently record acts of police misconduct.  Then, you will see the Police and DA spring into action like a hungry tiger!  

How, you ask?  

By charging the WITNESS with a Felony of Interferring with an Official Police Investigation!!!!

Just wait and see.  It's only a matter of time.....

[Rico]

 Mr. Uranus, you do not lay sole Right to the Truth..

"No personal attacks"


It was not a personal attack. Merely a Statement of the Facts..............

Prove me Wrong
[}:)]

[swake]

Uranus, are you or are you not the crazed man named Paul Tay?

[MH2010]

"There's nothing in the TPD investigative standards or the DA's playbook except a RUBBER STAMP for the TPD's use of force as JUSTIFIED.
Maybe there were just a few cases of Just-I-Lied for Justified? You'd have to admit that the Law of Probability, unlike the Law of Gravity, is being defied by ZERO wrongful death determinations in respect to TPD use of force? ZERO cases, EVER? Hmmmmmmh?"

- I don't have to admit to anything that is a lie. There is no incident in recent history where the use of deadly force by TPD was not justified. If you know something I don't then state the case. Otherwise, just continue with your pitiful conspiratorial ideas if it makes you feel better.

"By the way, the POLICE control the evidence of every investigation. That's probably why they strenuously do NOT want those pesky camcorders in their police cars. Because the media will be INDEPENDENT evidence from what they SAY in their official police reports"

-Actually I and most other officers would love to have camcorders with mics in our police cars. It would be a great source of evidence against criminals.

"Police are not INDEPENDENT to investigate their own alleged wrongdoing. Similarly, the local DA is not INDEPENDENT to investigate allegations of police misconduct, because of the extreme civil liability for the city/county for rulings substantiating police misconduct. Rather, a functioning CITIZEN REVIEW BOARD is badly needed here in Tulsa to INDEPENDENTLY review and investigate allegations of police misconduct."


-Ask former officer Robert Rolen Jr. about TPD and the local DA's ability to investigate police misconduct and then give special treatment...(In case you have forgotten)

Former Tulsa police officer sentenced to 10 years on drug charges
BILL BRAUN World Staff Writer
07/27/2002
Tulsa World (Final Home Edition), Page a15 of News

A judge sentenced former Tulsa Police Officer Robert Rolen Jr. on Friday to 10 years in prison for drug-relatedcrimes that a prosecutor categorized as a "betrayal of trust."

Tulsa County Associate District Judge Deirdre Dexter did not follow a Department of Corrections background report, which recommended that Rolen be placed on probation as a first-time, nonviolent offender.

"I can't believe this," Rolen said before being escorted by deputy sheriffs to jail.

At a sentencing hearing Friday, defense attorney Kevin Adams said prosecutors "want to throw the book at Mr. Rolen" in a case in which Rolen's co-defendant and girlfriend, Shannon Dugan, received a five-year probation on July 15.

"Treat him equally," Adams urged on Rolen's behalf. Dugan is "arguably more culpable," and "she is less willing to accept responsibility."

But Assistant District Attorney Larry Edwards said that based on his former status as a police officer and his "betrayal of the justice system," Rolen "should be treated differently."

Edwards questioned "how many cases are we going to lose" because jurors no longer believe police because they have heard about Rolen's activities.

Rolen, 39, pleaded guilty June 3 to three felonies -- delivery of methamphetamine, possession of methamphetamine with an intent to distribute and possessing a firearm while in the commission of a felony -- and one misdemeanor -- possession of drug paraphernalia.

He had no deal with prosecutors to govern his punishment. Edwards said no plea negotiation had been extend ed to Rolen because "we wanted a jury of his peers to decide what this case was worth."

Dexter handed Rolen three 10-year prison terms for the felonies and a one-year jail sentence for the misdemeanor, all to run concurrently.

She also imposed about $50,000 in fines and victims compensation assessments, although such financial penalties typically go uncollected while a defendant is in prison.

Police Chief Ron Palmer fired Rolen, a patrol officer, in February 2001, 10 days after he was charged.

Rolen had been with the department since 1985, having joined the force as a community service officer. He became a full- fledged police officer in 1993.

Charges were filed after a woman who admitted being a methamphetamine user cooperated with investigators and made a "controlled buy" at the defendants' Tulsa residence.

She indicated that she obtained the "dope" from Dugan while Rolen stood in a doorway.

Officers searched the residence a day later and recovered methamphetamine from Dugan's robe pocket and from a bedroom dresser, police reported. The firearm count stemmed from evidence that two loaded handguns -- including Rolen's service revolver -- were recovered from the bedroom.

According to a background report, Rolen indicated that he agreed to give the informant half a gram of methamphetamine for $50 after she called repeatedly "begging for some."

He said he had been selling $50 worth of meth every couple of days out of his residence after purchasing the drugs from various suppliers.

Edwards noted that a marijuana smoking pipe was also recovered from Rolen's patrol unit.

Rolen said he began selling drugs because of "financial difficulties," including child-support payments, police reported.

Rolen has five children with three ex-wives. In one domestic case, Special Judge Darlene Crutchfield in June found him in contempt of court for not making child-support payments and sentenced him to 180 days in jail. He has been serving that time on weekends, records show.

While free on bail and awaiting sentencing in the drug case, he tested positive for methamphetamine usage, a report said.

Dugan pleaded guilty to three counts -- delivery of methamphetamine, possession of methamphetamine with intent to distribute and possession of drug paraphernalia.

You can also look at the other TPD officers who have been fired for wrongdoing. Some were fired before their criminal cases went to court. Some of those people were even found innocent and had to sue to get their jobs back (Ofc. Orlando Lace,Ofc. Anna Coudry, ect)

TPD police ourselves just fine. Most of us believe there is nothing worse than a dirty cop!

[Uranus74136]

quote:Originally posted by Rico

 Mr. Uranus, you do not lay sole Right to the Truth..

"No personal attacks"


It was not a personal attack. Merely a Statement of the Facts..............

Prove me Wrong
[}:)]

I would say that Rico's earlier comments concerning me, to wit:

"Allthough if You had been able to put your name in a famous or infamous category it would have probably been for hurting yourself while Blowing Your Nose.

Take some Vitamin C and a couple of shots of your Evan Williams and have a good long nap."

Those did seem RATHER like a Personal Attack.  

Personal attacks do NOTHING to advance the validity of one's argument.

[Uranus74136]

quote:Originally posted by MH2010

"There's nothing in the TPD investigative standards or the DA's playbook except a RUBBER STAMP for the TPD's use of force as JUSTIFIED.
Maybe there were just a few cases of Just-I-Lied for Justified? You'd have to admit that the Law of Probability, unlike the Law of Gravity, is being defied by ZERO wrongful death determinations in respect to TPD use of force? ZERO cases, EVER? Hmmmmmmh?"

- I don't have to admit to anything that is a lie. There is no incident in recent history where the use of deadly force by TPD was not justified. If you know something I don't then state the case. Otherwise, just continue with your pitiful conspiratorial ideas if it makes you feel better.

"By the way, the POLICE control the evidence of every investigation. That's probably why they strenuously do NOT want those pesky camcorders in their police cars. Because the media will be INDEPENDENT evidence from what they SAY in their official police reports"

-Actually I and most other officers would love to have camcorders with mics in our police cars. It would be a great source of evidence against criminals.

"Police are not INDEPENDENT to investigate their own alleged wrongdoing. Similarly, the local DA is not INDEPENDENT to investigate allegations of police misconduct, because of the extreme civil liability for the city/county for rulings substantiating police misconduct. Rather, a functioning CITIZEN REVIEW BOARD is badly needed here in Tulsa to INDEPENDENTLY review and investigate allegations of police misconduct."


-Ask former officer Robert Rolen Jr. about TPD and the local DA's ability to investigate police misconduct and then give special treatment...(In case you have forgotten)

Former Tulsa police officer sentenced to 10 years on drug charges
BILL BRAUN World Staff Writer
07/27/2002
Tulsa World (Final Home Edition), Page a15 of News

A judge sentenced former Tulsa Police Officer Robert Rolen Jr. on Friday to 10 years in prison for drug-relatedcrimes that a prosecutor categorized as a "betrayal of trust."

Tulsa County Associate District Judge Deirdre Dexter did not follow a Department of Corrections background report, which recommended that Rolen be placed on probation as a first-time, nonviolent offender.

"I can't believe this," Rolen said before being escorted by deputy sheriffs to jail.

At a sentencing hearing Friday, defense attorney Kevin Adams said prosecutors "want to throw the book at Mr. Rolen" in a case in which Rolen's co-defendant and girlfriend, Shannon Dugan, received a five-year probation on July 15.

"Treat him equally," Adams urged on Rolen's behalf. Dugan is "arguably more culpable," and "she is less willing to accept responsibility."

But Assistant District Attorney Larry Edwards said that based on his former status as a police officer and his "betrayal of the justice system," Rolen "should be treated differently."

Edwards questioned "how many cases are we going to lose" because jurors no longer believe police because they have heard about Rolen's activities.

Rolen, 39, pleaded guilty June 3 to three felonies -- delivery of methamphetamine, possession of methamphetamine with an intent to distribute and possessing a firearm while in the commission of a felony -- and one misdemeanor -- possession of drug paraphernalia.

He had no deal with prosecutors to govern his punishment. Edwards said no plea negotiation had been extend ed to Rolen because "we wanted a jury of his peers to decide what this case was worth."

Dexter handed Rolen three 10-year prison terms for the felonies and a one-year jail sentence for the misdemeanor, all to run concurrently.

She also imposed about $50,000 in fines and victims compensation assessments, although such financial penalties typically go uncollected while a defendant is in prison.

Police Chief Ron Palmer fired Rolen, a patrol officer, in February 2001, 10 days after he was charged.

Rolen had been with the department since 1985, having joined the force as a community service officer. He became a full- fledged police officer in 1993.

Charges were filed after a woman who admitted being a methamphetamine user cooperated with investigators and made a "controlled buy" at the defendants' Tulsa residence.

She indicated that she obtained the "dope" from Dugan while Rolen stood in a doorway.

Officers searched the residence a day later and recovered methamphetamine from Dugan's robe pocket and from a bedroom dresser, police reported. The firearm count stemmed from evidence that two loaded handguns -- including Rolen's service revolver -- were recovered from the bedroom.

According to a background report, Rolen indicated that he agreed to give the informant half a gram of methamphetamine for $50 after she called repeatedly "begging for some."

He said he had been selling $50 worth of meth every couple of days out of his residence after purchasing the drugs from various suppliers.

Edwards noted that a marijuana smoking pipe was also recovered from Rolen's patrol unit.

Rolen said he began selling drugs because of "financial difficulties," including child-support payments, police reported.

Rolen has five children with three ex-wives. In one domestic case, Special Judge Darlene Crutchfield in June found him in contempt of court for not making child-support payments and sentenced him to 180 days in jail. He has been serving that time on weekends, records show.

While free on bail and awaiting sentencing in the drug case, he tested positive for methamphetamine usage, a report said.

Dugan pleaded guilty to three counts -- delivery of methamphetamine, possession of methamphetamine with intent to distribute and possession of drug paraphernalia.

You can also look at the other TPD officers who have been fired for wrongdoing. Some were fired before their criminal cases went to court. Some of those people were even found innocent and had to sue to get their jobs back (Ofc. Orlando Lace,Ofc. Anna Coudry, ect)

TPD police ourselves just fine. Most of us believe there is nothing worse than a dirty cop!

Citing the misfortune of TDP Officer Rolen is skirting the question of the carte-blanche that police have in their conduct that is judged "line of duty".  

What Mr. Rolen was doing was OUTSIDE of his duties.  And, as your news quote shows, he received a harsher than recommended sentence because he caused a blemish on the "honor" of the Tulsa Police Dept.  

As a first time offender, DOC recommended him for probation, just like his co-defendant.  He got 10 years.  Seems like someone was applying unequal justice in his case.

>Say, isn't Mr. Rolen going to have a hard time making those Child Support payments for his 5 children while he's in prison?

>You left out the case of a few years back when the two TPD officers that were fired for stopping and holding a family at gun-point for the alleged infraction of their kid tossing an empty can of pop out of the car, striking their vehicle.  It was over on U.S. 75; remember?  

This male/female TPD duo had the entire family spread-eagled beside the car with their guns pointing at the family.  Problem was, there were just a few TOO many witnesses to that escapade.  Remember?  

Didn't they get FIRED for exercising poor judgment?  Did you know them?

I'm glad we BOTH support the use of camcorders in all TPD vehicles.  Actually, I don't see it ever happening here in Tulsa.  

I do NOT believe the FOP is in favor of it, because on balance, it does tend to independently document evidence of occasional police misconduct, and the FOP just does not want that kind of evidence being around.

And while we're at it, how about a streaming video helmet worn by TPD when they interact with civilians?  The technology is available.  Guess when can expect the streaming video helmets AFTER the TPD car camcorders.

Sometime I need to hear your opinion on what Continuum of Force means?  To me, it seems to mean that the police, who can never just BACK-OFF, keep applying greater and greater amounts of force until the civilian is dead?  Right?  Even if it's only a traffic stop for running a Yellow Light?  Right?